The Mythical *Pass* for Differently-Abled People

[julieisafemme]

Adorable you made a blanket statement that people with mental illness do not have a choice. In my experience that is simply not true. You also likened Plato's insistence on choice as privileged. For myself your characterizing people with mental illness as unable to make choices was privileged. You base your definition of choice, rational thought, and self-awareness on the "norm" of those who are not differently abled. This ignores the fact that DA people vary greatly in their abilites and that within their own range of experience they are able to make choices, have rational thoughts and be self-aware.

You went on to use two examples of how people with mental illness do not have a choice. One was an anxiety disorder example like OCD and the other seemed to be more of a thought disorder example. I am not sure what your background is. I am not sure where you get these examples. I am not sure if you are DA. I am not making any assumptions about that.

I am DA. I am letting you know that it is important to me to give another persepctive on the statement that mentally ill people do not have a choice.

As far as the whole example you made at the end I am not sure what to say. I very much dislike hypotheticals in discussions like these. I have a very hard time grasping them. In the situation you outlined I would politely say no thank you and put you on ignore. No pass. What your intent was or what your capactiy is would not be a part of my thought process.

Oh! Edited to add that if anyone is interested in an excellent book on mental illness and choice please read The Center Cannot Hold by Elyn R. Saks. This is the best book I have ever read in describing mental illness and what is possible within one person to adapt and cope with it. I cannot recommend it highly enough!

Oh! One more thing. The assumption that we walk around with the same capacity is not true. I agree there. That is not what I am saying or implying. All I am saying is that we all walk around with capacity! Everyone has the capacity to do and be things. Everyone.

Originally Posted by adorable

I hear what you are saying and I personally think that it's great that you have both the tools and capacity to do this. My point is, that not everyone does. That is true in all facets of our lives and not just limited to special needs, brain injuries, disorders or mental illness. If someone is saying something to me - how I take it matters. If I operate under the assumption that people are all in fact like me, thinking like me, seeing things the way that I do - that doesn't always work. I believe that it is my responsibility to understand THAT. It is my responsibilty as being someone who walks around "getting it" to have compassion for those who don't have the same tools, level of comprehension, quick thinking or capacity for higher levels of understanding.

Capacity matters. Intent matters.

If a drunk driver kills someone - that driver made a choice to get behind the wheel drunk.

If someone has a heart attack and kills someone while they are driving - that person didn't make a choice.

One will go to jail. One will not.

In both cases the outcome of an innocent person being harmed was the same. A pass is issued for the heart attack.

It doesn't make what happened any less tragic, but in one case you can see where it wasn't that persons fault. They didn't have control over having a heart attack when they did.

I see things very much that way. If I said to you, "I want to be your girlfriend." And based on the totality of my posts you know that I am normally articulate, well spoken and seem pretty smart. Your response to me would be probably "Sorry, I am not interested."

If I sent you a pm back that says "why?" that is weird. Because the information you have about me is that I should have the capcity to have this conversation like an adult.

Your next question might be "Are you drunk or something?"
My response might be, "No. I like you and I think you would like me if you gave me a chance."

Um, yeah, at this point it's feeling all Mr. Yuck. I am someone who should GET it. This conversation shouldn't be happening. It's situationally and socially inappropriate.

So now you get mad, assuming that at this point, I ain't getting it. "Leave me the fuck alone!"

"But I just wanted to be your friend why are you being a bitch?"

Now. Let's say that from the totality of my posts you can tell that I struggle with formulating thoughts and there is clearly something "off." I say what I tend to think in very simple terms and when asked for clarification from other people, generally say the same thing over again BECAUSE in my head it's making sense the way I am saying it. I rarely understand why people get upset with my posts because the posts make sense to me. I am participating like everyone else. The part of YOU that has the capacity to see this is now going to respond to that first pm. "I want to be your girlfriend."

Strange? Yes. As strange as if I, adorable, in all my thinking capacity and excellent command of communication had sent it? No. In one case no pass is given because all the information you have doesn't warrant one. The benefit of the doubt is thrown out there that I might be drunk - that is something that might get loose lips a temporary pass. If you are dealing with the second me in the example. How you read that pm is likely to be different IF you have read my other posts and know the way I communicate is convoluted, disorganized and sometimes socially inappropriate. Understanding my limitations with regards to capacity is important. Because HOW the rest of the interaction is going to go is often controlled by the person with the higher capacity. If the person being approached reads the person as just stupid and with sinister motives - then the responses are going to be far different.

Rather then getting angry or hostile at what might be a considered socially inappropriate proposition - the conversation might go more like this.

"I'm sorry, I'm not interested."
"Why? You would like me. I want to be your girlfriend."
"Oh I do like you and I think we should just be friends."
"I want to be friends too."
"Good, me too."


The assumption that we all walk around with the same capacity is simply not true.

[BullDog]

SuperFemme, this is an amazing thread. I am learning a lot. Thank you.

I hope this is not too much of a derail, but it is something that is bothering me. I personally have never used the ignore button. I understand the usefulness of it and perhaps there are times I should have used it, but if I feel someone is crossing my boundaries, being hostile or aggressive to me, I want to know where they are and what they are saying- especially if they are male.

Most women of color I have dated or are friends with will never sit with their back to the door. Could be many white women feel this way too, but I have had this explained to me by a woman I was dating so I would understand better when we went somewhere where she would be more comfortable sitting. She explain a lot of other things to me and was a lot more conscious of personal safety and being out in public than I am. I think that is because of my white privilege.

I can understand why a woman of color would not want to put a male (whether they were differently abled or not) on ignore if he was not respecting her boundaries. I know the internet is not the same as being in physical proximity with someone, but we learn how to set and negotiate our boundaries out in the real world. I am not making any assumptions about Snow's reasons or speaking for her, but I did feel the need to say something. I think as a white person it is easier for me to move through this world and to ignore what I don't like than it would be for a person of color. I think that is white privilege.

So to try to tie this in to the thread, being differently abled or not is also going to of course intersect with many other factors to keep in mind in terms of how we interact with each other and interpret each others words.

[Daywalker]

I wanna share this video with everyone:



What I see is someone who joined the worlds biggest talent competition,
and is not looking to get a 'pass' because of living a life with Epilepsy;
rather someone who is introducing inspiration, and encouragement for
all differently abled folks to look inside themselves for the
light that makes them shine and shine that light
upon all that surrounds them.



I have some stuff to add, and will be back later for that.

[christie]

Originally Posted by Daywalker

I wanna share this video with everyone:



What I see is someone who joined the worlds biggest talent competition,
and is not looking to get a 'pass' because of living a life with Epilepsy;
rather someone who is introducing inspiration, and encouragement for
all differently abled folks to look inside themselves for the
light that makes them shine and shine that light
upon all that surrounds them.



I have some stuff to add, and will be back later for that.

Thanks, Daywalker, for posting this. I also posted it on the neurodiversity thread and have slammed my coworkers and friends with emails with a link to it. This young man and the grace he exhibits not just in his words but also in this really amazing ability (I'd never even heard of indoor kite flying!).

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by BullDog

SuperFemme, this is an amazing thread. I am learning a lot. Thank you.

I hope this is not too much of a derail, but it is something that is bothering me. I personally have never used the ignore button. I understand the usefulness of it and perhaps there are times I should have used it, but if I feel someone is crossing my boundaries, being hostile or aggressive to me, I want to know where they are and what they are saying- especially if they are male.

Most women of color I have dated or are friends with will never sit with their back to the door. Could be many white women feel this way too, but I have had this explained to me by a woman I was dating so I would understand better when we went somewhere where she would be more comfortable sitting. She explain a lot of other things to me and was a lot more conscious of personal safety and being out in public than I am. I think that is because of my white privilege.

I can understand why a woman of color would not want to put a male (whether they were differently abled or not) on ignore if he was not respecting her boundaries. I know the internet is not the same as being in physical proximity with someone, but we learn how to set and negotiate our boundaries out in the real world. I am not making any assumptions about Snow's reasons or speaking for her, but I did feel the need to say something. I think as a white person it is easier for me to move through this world and to ignore what I don't like than it would be for a person of color. I think that is white privilege.

So to try to tie this in to the thread, being differently abled or not is also going to of course intersect with many other factors to keep in mind in terms of how we interact with each other and interpret each others words.

Really great points BullDog and Christie!

BD, Maybe it is white privilege that I can ignore someone who makes me feel unsafe? I am actually just learning how to to do this with help from my therapist and it is proving very beneficial to *me*.

I had not thought of this from a white privileged angle. While I usually try to stop white privileged behaviors, walking away from people I do not think respect me is something I have worked very hard to be able to do, and I think it a beneficial strategy for anyone. Life changing even. It really helps with my stress level.

Christie, great answer also. It would be great to see some homework done on how to communicate with people on the spectrum so that things do not escalate to this point, but I don't expect anyone to. Since being DA applies to *me* I don't feel I can directly ask that of anyone.

Are issues of race more important than issues of disability? Which group has suffered more in the past and deserves to be dealt with through a filter of why things are like they are? You tell me.

I think we are all worthy of compassion.

Every one of us.

Even the people we can't deal with. (really hard one for me).

[adorable]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Really great points BullDog and Christie!

BD, Maybe it is white privilege that I can ignore someone who makes me feel unsafe? I am actually just learning how to to do this with help from my therapist and it is proving very beneficial to *me*.

I had not thought of this from a white privileged angle. While I usually try to stop white privileged behaviors, walking away from people I do not think respect me is something I have worked very hard to be able to do, and I think it a beneficial strategy for anyone. Life changing even. It really helps with my stress level.

Christie, great answer also. It would be great to see some homework done on how to communicate with people on the spectrum so that things do not escalate to this point, but I don't expect anyone to. Since being DA applies to *me* I don't feel I can directly ask that of anyone.

Are issues of race more important than issues of disability? Which group has suffered more in the past and deserves to be dealt with through a filter of why things are like they are? You tell me.

I think we are all worthy of compassion.

Every one of us.

Even the people we can't deal with. (really hard one for me).

I want to make something very clear here.

Snow is right.

That doesn't contradict anything I have said. BECAUSE based on the information that we have at any given time (regardless of the color of our skin btw) we make choices to protect ourselves and our family. Period.

I think there is more information and to revisit something with a different view isn't necessarily a bad thing. She may or may not agree with that. But I know that when I have more information it might change how I view a situation. It might change the level of danger that I feel. It could also make it worse for her personally. Either way, she isn't wrong. It really isn't even a matter of right or wrong - it is a matter of safety.

I also think that as women, we aren't imagining that there are people out to get us. There are. It's real. People die from online interactions. There are a couple people on this site that I keep a safe distance from based on what I have seen in posting and from experiences that have been relayed by people who know them in real time.


Having a buddy system is something that I do here with one member. I know other people try to do that too them. I don't always have the patience. Some people have jumbled thoughts and type it out because it's what they're thinking. In their mind they make sense because they are thinking it. Then they are misread. So in an effort to clarify, because now people are jumping on them for posting that, they keep saying the same thing. As a buddy, I will pm the person and say people are not understanding your post. They will say, "but what I meant was" and then say the same thing to me as they did in the post and by now 15 times over in the thread.

30 pm's later all I can do is say, "I know what you meant. It's going to be ok."
Because by then, they are so upset and frustrated that no one likes them because of their post and no one understands them even though what they meant was (insert what they orginally said here which made no real sense to begin with) - that trying to get back to the original issue which was the first post where they weren't clear is the least of it.

So again, for me it comes back to capacity. In order for even a buddy system to effectively work someone has to fully understand that just because they are thinking it, doesn't mean it makes sense. And that to keep trying to say it over and over doesn't make any MORE sense.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by adorable

I want to make something very clear here.

Snow is right.

That doesn't contradict anything I have said. BECAUSE based on the information that we have at any given time (regardless of the color of our skin btw) we make choices to protect ourselves and our family. Period.

I think there is more information and to revisit something with a different view isn't necessarily a bad thing. She may or may not agree with that. But I know that when I have more information it might change how I view a situation. It might change the level of danger that I feel. It could also make it worse for her personally. Either way, she isn't wrong. It really isn't even a matter of right or wrong - it is a matter of safety.

I also think that as women, we aren't imagining that there are people out to get us. There are. It's real. People die from online interactions. There are a couple people on this site that I keep a safe distance from based on what I have seen in posting and from experiences that have been relayed by people who know them in real time.


Having a buddy system is something that I do here with one member. I know other people try to do that too them. I don't always have the patience. Some people have jumbled thoughts and type it out because it's what they're thinking. In their mind they make sense because they are thinking it. Then they are misread. So in an effort to clarify, because now people are jumping on them for posting that, they keep saying the same thing. As a buddy, I will pm the person and say people are not understanding your post. They will say, "but what I meant was" and then say the same thing to me as they did in the post and by now 15 times over in the thread.

30 pm's later all I can do is say, "I know what you meant. It's going to be ok."
Because by then, they are so upset and frustrated that no one likes them because of their post and no one understands them even though what they meant was (insert what they orginally said here which made no real sense to begin with) - that trying to get back to the original issue which was the first post where they weren't clear is the least of it.

So again, for me it comes back to capacity. In order for even a buddy system to effectively work someone has to fully understand that just because they are thinking it, doesn't mean it makes sense. And that to keep trying to say it over and over doesn't make any MORE sense.

Snow has said many things, exactly what part are you talking about?

If someone here is threatening her or her family in real time family I am 100% in accordance that they should be kicked off the website. Hell, show me where they are and I personally will call the police and/or run over them in my car. Period.

If I appear to be saying something else, my apologies!!! I do not think anyone should put themselves in danger. I thought we were discussing maybe spending a little extra time learning about how people who are differently able communicate or avoiding people who stress us out. I am NOT saying she should place herself or her children in danger. Please!

What I am saying is that if someone with a disability bugs you, you can press the ignore button or try to understand their way of communication instead of discounting them as human.

I agree with her that rules are rules and should be followed. And if she is in danger I stand beside her in friendship to help protect her and her family.

I thought we were arguing approach. Tough Love vs. extra leeway, so I am completely lost now.

[weatherboi]

tough love vs. extra leeway???

it is all relative to the situation. i read things wrong all the time. i have terrible dyslexia. honest intent. we help and treat each other accordingly. some people manipulate and take advantage of extra leeway and cry that they can't handle tough love. so what then?? let them continue to cross boundaries and placate the behavior?? i am not in support of banning people who need this community. i am however weary of people who continue to cross boundaries all over the place. whatever the reason.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

tough love vs. extra leeway???

it is all relative to the situation. i read things wrong all the time. i have terrible dyslexia. honest intent. we help and treat each other accordingly. some people manipulate and take advantage of extra leeway and cry that they can't handle tough love. so what then?? let them continue to cross boundaries and placate the behavior?? i am not in support of banning people who need this community. i am however weary of people who continue to cross boundaries all over the place. whatever the reason.

I really think some people don't have the emotional and mental maturity to not cross boundaries no matter how many times they are told.

I think some of these same people do need our community.

I think we have decide what kind of website we are going to be. Are we going to make allowances for those people who ON LINE cross our boundaries? Are we going to try and learn to communicate with them, or choose to ignore them? Or do we need to just have a zero tolerance policy?

To be clear, I am not speaking of anyone who poses a physical threat to anyone or their family. Actual proven physical threat, ZERO tolerance!!!

[adorable]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

Adorable you made a blanket statement that people with mental illness do not have a choice. In my experience that is simply not true. You also likened Plato's insistence on choice as privileged. For myself your characterizing people with mental illness as unable to make choices was privileged. You base your definition of choice, rational thought, and self-awareness on the "norm" of those who are not differently abled. This ignores the fact that DA people vary greatly in their abilites and that within their own range of experience they are able to make choices, have rational thoughts and be self-aware.

You went on to use two examples of how people with mental illness do not have a choice. One was an anxiety disorder example like OCD and the other seemed to be more of a thought disorder example. I am not sure what your background is. I am not sure where you get these examples. I am not sure if you are DA. I am not making any assumptions about that.

I am DA. I am letting you know that it is important to me to give another persepctive on the statement that mentally ill people do not have a choice.

As far as the whole example you made at the end I am not sure what to say. I very much dislike hypotheticals in discussions like these. I have a very hard time grasping them. In the situation you outlined I would politely say no thank you and put you on ignore. No pass. What your intent was or what your capactiy is would not be a part of my thought process.

Oh! Edited to add that if anyone is interested in an excellent book on mental illness and choice please read The Center Cannot Hold by Elyn R. Saks. This is the best book I have ever read in describing mental illness and what is possible within one person to adapt and cope with it. I cannot recommend it highly enough!

Oh! One more thing. The assumption that we walk around with the same capacity is not true. I agree there. That is not what I am saying or implying. All I am saying is that we all walk around with capacity! Everyone has the capacity to do and be things. Everyone.

I was not trying to make a blanket statement about all which is why I used the word "some" a lot. Not all. Not by any stretch of the imagination. But that "some" for me matters. If what is presenting to you LOOKS a certain age and appear that they SHOULD be able to understand - that to me is different then actually being either.

Capacity to understand is not a given. Taking responsibilty for me, must include the understanding of what taking responsibilty means. Just because we can have these complex thoughtful discussions doesn't mean that everyone has capacity. So to me, the answer isn't well I will just ignore them then. I am DA at different times based on a medical condition that I have. I certianly have DA peeps in my family all to varying degrees.

I have no patience. None. I would make the worst nurse or teacher in the world. I don't love people, as in the collective lets hold hands around a campfire and sing, type love for all.

But when it comes to this issue, I think that we as a society are quick to label people and toss them if they don't fit nicely. Not everyone gets it. Not everyone has the capacity to get it. Or even knows there is an "it" to get. Yet, we can all scream at them and hold them to a standard the we ourselves are able to maintain. We can do this because WE get it. When we hold people to OUR standard of thinking and capacity and place those expectations on other people - that is priviledged. I am priviledged if I do that to someone who has trouble walking and I want them to hurry up and get out of my way. I can walk. That person should just move faster. If they can't move faster oh well, I guess I could knock them out of the way because they do have legs - I can see them they must be chosing not to use them the same way I use mine.

It is not black and white. Our laws are designed to keep that in mind. Intent, understanding, capacity, intelligence are all factors in determining motive. We all do it. HOW we do it and how we read things matters.

I hear you saying that you want people to know that mentally ill people have capacity. I get that. I have most definately met people that do. I have also met people who do not. I apologize if it felt like I was catagorizing all people with mental illness as not having capacity or choice.

[julieisafemme]

I think we are agreeing! At least that is how I am reading it. I think I am uncomfortable with the concept of capacity or ability. Because there are capacities within capacities within capacities! Often a capacity to understand also has to do with education and familiarity with the subject matter and ways of discourse.

Just an FYI this is what you wrote "With mental illness there is no choice to be made." That is what I was directly responding to.

Thank you for the conversation!

Originally Posted by adorable

I was not trying to make a blanket statement about all which is why I used the word "some" a lot. Not all. Not by any stretch of the imagination. But that "some" for me matters. If what is presenting to you LOOKS a certain age and appear that they SHOULD be able to understand - that to me is different then actually being either.

Capacity to understand is not a given. Taking responsibilty for me, must include the understanding of what taking responsibilty means. Just because we can have these complex thoughtful discussions doesn't mean that everyone has capacity. So to me, the answer isn't well I will just ignore them then. I am DA at different times based on a medical condition that I have. I certianly have DA peeps in my family all to varying degrees.

I have no patience. None. I would make the worst nurse or teacher in the world. I don't love people, as in the collective lets hold hands around a campfire and sing, type love for all.

But when it comes to this issue, I think that we as a society are quick to label people and toss them if they don't fit nicely. Not everyone gets it. Not everyone has the capacity to get it. Or even knows there is an "it" to get. Yet, we can all scream at them and hold them to a standard the we ourselves are able to maintain. We can do this because WE get it. When we hold people to OUR standard of thinking and capacity and place those expectations on other people - that is priviledged. I am priviledged if I do that to someone who has trouble walking and I want them to hurry up and get out of my way. I can walk. That person should just move faster. If they can't move faster oh well, I guess I could knock them out of the way because they do have legs - I can see them they must be chosing not to use them the same way I use mine.

It is not black and white. Our laws are designed to keep that in mind. Intent, understanding, capacity, intelligence are all factors in determining motive. We all do it. HOW we do it and how we read things matters.

I hear you saying that you want people to know that mentally ill people have capacity. I get that. I have most definately met people that do. I have also met people who do not. I apologize if it felt like I was catagorizing all people with mental illness as not having capacity or choice.