Male ID butch vs. FTM??

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by BullDog

No Corkey, I am not insisting people look at butch in my way. Not all butches are third gender and there are more than three genders. For those who identify with the term they are free to do so.

Bully no one said there was, do you have a tape running in your head from another thread, where are you coming from? This is a ring around and it's getting boring. No Bully not every, not ALL not even a majority...feel better? Remember it's a spectrum and some do and some are and some will be.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Corkey

Bully no one said there was, do you have a tape running in your head from another thread, where are you coming from? This is a ring around and it's getting boring. No Bully not every, not ALL not even a majority...feel better? Remember it's a spectrum and some do and some are and some will be.

Corkey who are you arguing with? Really this is quite tiresome.

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by Corkey

Far from pissed but thank you Thinker.

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

Not pissed at all - never was

Sorry to be away so long but wanted to make sure I followed up on this...

I'm glad to hear no one was really "pissed". However, there was definitely some heat in here as well as some not-so-kind exchanges.

I'm glad to see things have gotten back on a positive track; lots of us are.

All we ask is that everyone continue to discuss very personal and important issues such as identities with respect, compassion, and understanding.

Thinker (moderating)

[Corkey]

Moving on.. I find it really sad that someone who has been involved with this conversation from the beginning has to unsubscribe from it...

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Corkey who are you arguing with? Really this is quite tiresome.

Hey BullDog...

Perhaps a conversation like this is best held in private. I'm asking that you either do that or just let it go.

This conversation is important to a lot of people, and we'd all like to see it stay focused and positive. Please contact me via PM if you have any questions or anything you'd like to address.

Thinker (moderating)

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Thinker

Hey BullDog...

Perhaps a conversation like this is best held in private. I'm asking that you either do that or just let it go.

This conversation is important to a lot of people, and we'd all like to see it stay focused and positive. Please contact me via PM if you have any questions or anything you'd like to address.

Thinker (moderating)

Thinker I am not arguing with Corkey. He is arguing with things I never said.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by Corkey

Bully no one said there was, do you have a tape running in your head from another thread, where are you coming from? This is a ring around and it's getting boring. No Bully not every, not ALL not even a majority...feel better? Remember it's a spectrum and some do and some are and some will be.

the two of you are both saying exactly the same thing Corky there's no argument. I think there's just misfiring.

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Thinker I am not arguing with Corkey. He is arguing with things I never said.

Bulldog, I asked you to address this via PM...which we have done.....so I do not see the need to post here as well.

Let's get the thread discussion back on track, please.

Thinker (moderating)

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

the two of you are both saying exactly the same thing Corky there's no argument. I think there's just misfiring.

Exactly, there isn't.

[imperfect_cupcake]

oops, sorry thinker. just caught up.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Thinker I am not arguing with Corkey. He is arguing with things I never said.

Bully take it from me I have no reason to argue with you. Reread.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by Corkey

Bully take it from me I have no reason to argue with you. Reread.

Ixnay, dudes, before you get spanked. *pointy finger behind hand to Dad*

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

see that, I'm more familiar with. The term I was told by a few I know/knew was FtQ/M
"transitioning" to their own queerly defined sex/gender (just matching things up better). I personally like the word if it's used in a ritual sense rather than a medical sense as I've known people to "make transitions" to very different stages of their life to celebrate achievements or what not. And running the gauntlet (transition) to their desired "state." that doesn't even sound quite right either. nevermind.

I actually wanted to address this before, but then I got distracted and blah blah blah. Anyways, now I address I get what you mean about liking the word when used in a ritual sense or a sense of making a transition to different stages of life etc. I don't like the word in the way it's used in the case of my own sex. As far as myself as a person, I tend to think of myself more as a progression. Am I splitting hairs...?

As far as my sex, the idea of a transition irks me because to me it implies that I suddenly become male or that I am becoming male and will be entirely male at some given point. For me the word disregards who I've considered myself to be since I could remember my thoughts on anything. I realise that my body doesn't match my brain and that I'm trying to make it reflect my brain, but I still don't see it as a process of becoming male for me because my awareness of being male, of being myself has its source somewhere other than in the nature of my reproductive organs or my chest. The great archetypal Ender/what being male means to me is in my mind. My mind, my thoughts, my instincts then go about trying to recreate physical Ender into what he should have been, so that eventually both physical and mental Enders are inline with archetypal Ender...but archetypal Ender has always been there.

Ok, I think I stopped making sense somewhere along the road to crazyville...hopefully you get what I'm saying lol

[Stearns]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

I actually wanted to address this before, but then I got distracted and blah blah blah. Anyways, now I address I get what you mean about liking the word when used in a ritual sense or a sense of making a transition to different stages of life etc. I don't like the word in the way it's used in the case of my own sex. As far as myself as a person, I tend to think of myself more as a progression. Am I splitting hairs...?

As far as my sex, the idea of a transition irks me because to me it implies that I suddenly become male or that I am becoming male and will be entirely male at some given point. For me the word disregards who I've considered myself to be since I could remember my thoughts on anything. I realise that my body doesn't match my brain and that I'm trying to make it reflect my brain, but I still don't see it as a process of becoming male for me because my awareness of being male, of being myself has its source somewhere other than in the nature of my reproductive organs or my chest. The great archetypal Ender/what being male means to me is in my mind. My mind, my thoughts, my instincts then go about trying to recreate physical Ender into what he should have been, so that eventually both physical and mental Enders are inline with archetypal Ender...but archetypal Ender has always been there.

Ok, I think I stopped making sense somewhere along the road to crazyville...hopefully you get what I'm saying lol

I get what you are saying here, Ender, and if our society were different there would be no 'need' to label anyone anything other than human. However, b/c labels can convey important information about us that we want others to know, I will continue to call myself a transman, rather than simply man. I want others to know that I am firmly rooted in the LGBT community and, further, that there is no shame or embarrassment (and nothing inherently wrong, except in the dysphoric sense) in being born biologically female.

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

As far as my sex, the idea of a transition irks me because to me it implies that I suddenly become male or that I am becoming male and will be entirely male at some given point. For me the word disregards who I've considered myself to be since I could remember my thoughts on anything. I realise that my body doesn't match my brain and that I'm trying to make it reflect my brain, but I still don't see it as a process of becoming male for me because my awareness of being male, of being myself has its source somewhere other than in the nature of my reproductive organs or my chest. The great archetypal Ender/what being male means to me is in my mind. My mind, my thoughts, my instincts then go about trying to recreate physical Ender into what he should have been, so that eventually both physical and mental Enders are inline with archetypal Ender...but archetypal Ender has always been there.

Ok, I think I stopped making sense somewhere along the road to crazyville...hopefully you get what I'm saying lol

You have a remarkable way of "being" and expressing yourself. I was nowhere near this evolved at 25, dude. Seriously. I've enjoyed reading you here.

I appreciate you explaining this because it helps me more fully understand when male ID'd folks say they have no plans, no need to transition. I can get that now. So thank you.

I will also say that I wish you well in all that you are doing to get to where you want to be physically......wherever that may be for you. Should you end up in a new "suit" someday, I believe you really will love it and know a peace unimaginable.

Thanks again, young man.

Thinker (site member)

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

I actually wanted to address this before, but then I got distracted and blah blah blah. Anyways, now I address I get what you mean about liking the word when used in a ritual sense or a sense of making a transition to different stages of life etc. I don't like the word in the way it's used in the case of my own sex. As far as myself as a person, I tend to think of myself more as a progression. Am I splitting hairs...?

As far as my sex, the idea of a transition irks me because to me it implies that I suddenly become male or that I am becoming male and will be entirely male at some given point. For me the word disregards who I've considered myself to be since I could remember my thoughts on anything. I realise that my body doesn't match my brain and that I'm trying to make it reflect my brain, but I still don't see it as a process of becoming male for me because my awareness of being male, of being myself has its source somewhere other than in the nature of my reproductive organs or my chest. The great archetypal Ender/what being male means to me is in my mind. My mind, my thoughts, my instincts then go about trying to recreate physical Ender into what he should have been, so that eventually both physical and mental Enders are inline with archetypal Ender...but archetypal Ender has always been there.

Ok, I think I stopped making sense somewhere along the road to crazyville...hopefully you get what I'm saying lol

No I get that. I guess I was more along the lines of the transition boys had to make into men - sometimes it took up to a year of being separate from the group to think about the changes that would be expected from them, the changes their body would be going through and the changes in responsibility. Like say the Bull roarer ceremony at the end of that period. After that, they no longer lived with their mothers. They were always male. they were always who their personalities were. it's just an acknowledgement that things will change socially/recognition wise.

Or a wedding ceremony - you may have been living together for several years before the wedding. Now comes the legal commitment with all the majour differences than can entail - legally.

Of course the person and who that person is has always been there in both examples. There's just a formal recognition and the leading up period of preparation for formally acknowledged differences.

I do get what you mean though.
as much as I can, like. It's not something within my experience that particular journey. I have my own "transitions" that were always present, but nothing of that flavour so I can't pretend to "get" it in the way it's experienced by those who go through that particular kind.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Frankly, it sounds much less stuck in old patriarchal gender distinctions and uptight sexual mores (unfortunately, major US fundamentasl of society) to me! It has been years since I was in the UK, but, when you and HB and others talk about it in terms of this, I long for anbother visit! I was het when there last.

LOL.. I'm a bozo...I mean't HB to be Met... sorry, I'm old!

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

No I get that. I guess I was more along the lines of the transition boys had to make into men - sometimes it took up to a year of being separate from the group to think about the changes that would be expected from them, the changes their body would be going through and the changes in responsibility. Like say the Bull roarer ceremony at the end of that period. After that, they no longer lived with their mothers. They were always male. they were always who their personalities were. it's just an acknowledgement that things will change socially/recognition wise.

Or a wedding ceremony - you may have been living together for several years before the wedding. Now comes the legal commitment with all the majour differences than can entail - legally.

Of course the person and who that person is has always been there in both examples. There's just a formal recognition and the leading up period of preparation for formally acknowledged differences.

I do get what you mean though.
as much as I can, like. It's not something within my experience that particular journey. I have my own "transitions" that were always present, but nothing of that flavour so I can't pretend to "get" it in the way it's experienced by those who go through that particular kind.

Ok, even though I said I got your post that I referenced, I think I misinterpreted it and thought I understood when I didn't fully. For some reason I wasn't thinking ritualistic in the same sense as you've described it here. That makes more sense to me when you put it that way, and I think I can somewhat agree on some level. I'm kind of in that in between land where part of you agrees and part of you is resistant to agreement. I'm finding myself more inclined to seeing it like a coming of age ceremony like in you're first example, but I think I'm stuck on thinking one can have only one such ceremony. Then again, looking at my life I can already think of two (one at 13 and one which seemed to be ongoing between the ages of 19 and 23)...and now I'm arguing with myself lol I think I'll mull it over and come back later because I have something else to say, but I'm not quite sure what it is yet.

Thanks to all who've posted in response.

[citybutch]

Woman and female are two completely different things... in terms of meaning, etymological heritage, and values... I am female. I do not identify as woman. I strongly admire those females who DO identify as woman. Gender identity is a rainbow and not dualistic as our language binds us to... When we cannot find the words to define our grey area... then these types of struggles happen. The fact is... butch is not necessarily woman. It's not even necessarily female (which is what I think you were saying) Oh.. and I have seen plenty of non-butch men... man and butch is really not all that redundant...


Am jumping in and just thought I would add a thought or two...

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

I have read these types of threads over and over again, and have written, erased, written, erased so many times I lost count. I always talk myself out of expressing my opinion for fear of stirring the pot - I don't do drama and I try not to step on other people's toes. But I do have some very strong opinions on this topic and there are things that bother me immensly.

First of all - I stopped using the term Transgender a long time ago, and now only use Transexual if I need to use a label. Transgender is such a huge umbrella and people under it fall all over the gender spectrum - Transexual is pretty black and white. I was born female, and now have gone through the proper channels and jumped through the hoops to become physically and legally a man. The thing that irks me the most, is being referred to as a Butch. I am not a Butch - I am a man. I looked up the official definition of Butch (not that I don't know what it is, but just for arguments sake) and it is as follows:

butch   /bʊtʃ/ [booch]
–noun
1. butch haircut.
2. Slang . a lesbian, esp. one notably masculine in manner or appearance.
–adjective
3. Slang . a. (of a girl or woman) having traits of personality, dress, behavior, or appearance usually associated with males.
b. (of a male) decidedly or exaggeratedly masculine in manner or appearance.

If a Lesbian is a Butch, then a Butch is a woman. No? I am a man, therefore, to be called a Butch is redundant. This happens a lot and I just don't like it and I know I'm not alone. I have nothing against Butches - some of my best friends are Butches. What ever happened to a woman being as masculine and Butch as she wants to be without feeling the need to deny her gender? I love to see a strong, uber masculine Butch who is still proud to be a woman. I think that's damn HOT. I feel like young Butches have been made to feel like if they go too far, and are TOO butch, then they must want to be men. I'm not a man because of the clothes I wear, or the way I walk, or the way I wear my hair. I am a man because since I was 4 years old I knew I was, and I did whatever it took to become that legally and to the rest of the world.

I don't even know if I'm making sense or getting my point across - but I am open to discussion and would like to break this down more. Thoughts?

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

I'm kind of in that in between land where part of you agrees and part of you is resistant to agreement (...) and now I'm arguing with myself lol

lol! well, in that we are very much alike!!