The Gendering of the Young

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

What an amazing gift, to give Pop an infancy somewhat free from the imposition of the sex-based class system we call gender. Since those changing Pop’s diapers or otherwise viewing Pop’s genitals DO know which class Pop would normally have been assigned to at birth, presumably some gender class programming is still being absorbed by Pop via those who “know”, however subconsciously.

Still, in large part Pop is being consciously raised, at least in Pop’s infancy, as simply human.

Softness you seem to be saying that declining to steep one’s child in the early stages of indoctrination of either male privilege or female subjugation somehow strips Pop of an essential part of what it means to be Human?
That to be raised outside of socially imposed gender class one is rendered outside the whole of humanity?

I don’t see how it's dehumanizing to keep the configuration of a kid’s sex organs private until the child is old enough to consent to and direct ones own place in the gender caste system. It allows Pop the right to develop free from the gender class indoctrination normally imposed based on sex assigned at birth- or even in the womb, if the apparent sex is known.
Pop is truly being given a free human infancy, where Pop is free to develop as a human according to Pop’s own inclinations and characteristics.

How is that damaging?

Feminism is about creating a world where those sexed female at birth are allowed to grow up as fully human. A world free from the class system- gender- that one is assigned at birth based on ones perceived reproductive function.
Why does allowing a child a few early formative years free from that forced indoctrination “sicken” you?

I think Pop is a very lucky kid.

Pop is not free from gender class indoctrination. Pop is surrounded by it everyday. Pop can see how men and women interact with one another and how they are treated by others. Pop can see how women and men dress and behave. Pop can also see how Pop's parents react to people of different genders. Pop might see that a woman presenting in a very feminine way is not treated the same as a woman who presents as masculine. This will inform Pop's thoughts and feelings on gender.

Edited to add that I don't think Pop's parents are bad for doing this nor do I think Pop is being harmed.

[Nat]

Yeah but the cage door is left a bit ajar, no?

[Soon]

Nat,

Have you considered making this story a thread unto itself?

I'd love a poll where people agree or disagree with the parents' decision.

I think it might make for an interesting discussion.

[Nat]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

Nat,

Have you considered making this story a thread unto itself?

I'd love a poll where people agree or disagree with the parents' decision.

I think it might make for an interesting discussion.

I hadn't, but if you'd like to please do.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by Nat

I hadn't, but if you'd like to please do.

I did. I am always anxious with creating polls b/c I am sure I may have left out a viable option or poorly worded it, but I did the best I could.


Thanks for the interesting article!

[Nat]

Mariah: I won't force pink on baby

Mariah Carey doesn't know the sex of her unborn baby, but insists she won't force pink on her child if it's a girl.

The 41-year-old diva - who confirmed last week she is expecting her first child - was a guest on the Ellen DeGeneres Show and was teased by host Ellen that she was going to love dressing up her baby if she had a daughter.

Mariah said: "I'm not going to impose pink on a girl. Do you think I'm really going to go that hard with it? That's how you get the exact opposite."

Ellen joked to the singer: "When that baby comes out you're going to have high heels on it like immediately. Little, tiny high heel shoes on that baby."

When the presenter asked if she could guess the baby's sex, Mariah said: "I would prefer not. Because imagine if you're a baby inside someone's body. Do you really want someone imposing their sex ideas on you? Not really? I'm just saying. Would you want them to be like it's definitely a girl... would you?

[Tcountry]

I know a 7yr old who has tools and dolls...
who loves anything to do with kittens, but will get up on the roof and help tear off shingles...
I can say my household will be that way again, too....as soon as they can talk it is purely up to them...clothes, toys, activities, etc.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

Pop is not free from gender class indoctrination. Pop is surrounded by it everyday. Pop can see how men and women interact with one another and how they are treated by others. Pop can see how women and men dress and behave. Pop can also see how Pop's parents react to people of different genders. Pop might see that a woman presenting in a very feminine way is not treated the same as a woman who presents as masculine. This will inform Pop's thoughts and feelings on gender.

Edited to add that I don't think Pop's parents are bad for doing this nor do I think Pop is being harmed.

Yes the kid can observe the gender class system with some objectivity since Pop is not yet personally assigned to either class by society at large.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

Yes the kid can observe the gender class system with some objectivity since Pop is not yet personally assigned to either class by society at large.

But the child is two years old. I think adults can observe with some objectivity but a toddler cannot. I had not thought about how this would seem to the child until Ruthie mentioned it in the other thread.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

But the child is two years old. I think adults can observe with some objectivity but a toddler cannot. I had not thought about how this would seem to the child until Ruthie mentioned it in the other thread.

Not sure what you're saying here julieisafemme... I meant objective observation related to your thoughts posted above (about how Pop can still observe gender class without yet being part of it). I did not mean that two year olds possess adult analytic capacity and abstract thinking, simply that Pop can observe while not yet being a part of.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

Not sure what you're saying here julieisafemme... I meant objective observation related to your thoughts posted above (about how Pop can still observe gender class without yet being part of it). I did not mean that two year olds possess adult analytic capacity and abstract thinking, simply that Pop can observe while not yet being a part of.

Ah! I understand. I was kind of speaking more to myself there! When I posted at first I was not really thinking about the child's age. Ruthie brought me back to my own child's toddler days and I started thinking about how would a child view her or himself if their gender was never referred to? I am caught up in trying to imagine this. Children at that age are so concrete and like to label things. Anyway it is a very interesting subject. Sorry to confuse you!

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

Ah! I understand. I was kind of speaking more to myself there! When I posted at first I was not really thinking about the child's age. Ruthie brought me back to my own child's toddler days and I started thinking about how would a child view her or himself if their gender was never referred to? I am caught up in trying to imagine this. Children at that age are so concrete and like to label things. Anyway it is a very interesting subject. Sorry to confuse you!

Lol that's okay, I'm easily confused...
As to how children would view their humanness in the absence of gender class?
They would probably not think of gender much at all if there was no social class status attached. They would be "feminine" or "masculine" or neither or both regardless of their genital configuration. Since there would be no politics attached to their presumed reproductive function it wouldn't really be much of a filter for one's self image.
Whether one had an "inny" or an "outie" would be about it- much like bellybuttons.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

Lol that's okay, I'm easily confused...
As to how children would view their humanness in the absence of gender class?
They would probably not think of gender much at all if there was no social class status attached. They would be "feminine" or "masculine" or neither or both regardless of their genital configuration. Since there would be no politics attached to their presumed reproductive function it wouldn't really be much of a filter for one's self image.
Whether one had an "inny" or an "outie" would be about it- much like bellybuttons.

This idea of humanness has really caught me. I think I identify as a woman first and human second. I guess I can't imagine being devoid of my gender. My reproductive function is a filter for my self image. I don't find that to be a problem. I love my femaleness and the fact that I carried my child and labored to bring her here and fed her.

You said in another post that "Feminism is about creating a world where those sexed female at birth are allowed to grow up as fully human." I am trying to understand this. Do you mean that feminism's goal is to eradicate gender? Can one grow up to be fully human and a woman as well?