Exclusion: A Women's Issue?

atomiczombie · 12-09-2009, 10:18 PM

The only thing that would bother me in a sub-group only thread is if there is untrue or over-generalized things said about another sub-group. Then that other sub-group can't say anything about that. It just hangs there in the air un-answered. Other than that, I think it's awesome to have "only" spaces for particular sub-groups, if they felt a need for it.

Jett · 12-10-2009, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

The only thing that would bother me in a sub-group only thread is if there is untrue or over-generalized things said about another sub-group. Then that other sub-group can't say anything about that. It just hangs there in the air un-answered. Other than that, I think it's awesome to have "only" spaces for particular sub-groups, if they felt a need for it.

To me that sounds like an assumption that a "sub-group's" discussion need be policed specifically by "the other group". I personally believe there's enough decent peeps that derogatory comments about others wouldn't just go unchecked...

Jett · 12-10-2009, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackhammer

I get this.
Here's the dichotomy at my house, I assume that there's gonna be the bad actors that are going to take advantage of anything possible, push the limits of our kindness and patience.

My wife believes everyone will be on their best behavior and spewing love and understanding.

We view the world from different lenses, which in a way is good because it helps us cover bases from a fair perspective.

Sounds like a good balance Jack...

I'm in the middle I know peeps are gonna take advantage... but I also feel like there are those that will cut that off at the pass.

*ever an optipessimist*
Metro

atomiczombie · 12-10-2009, 01:32 AM

I guess my point is that some things that are said about my particular sub group I have seen in other threads that are meant to be for other sub groups. These things, I believe are well intentioned, but leave me feeling like there are now assumptions about me simply because a few people in my sub group are jerks. I don't feel its appropriate for me to speak up in these threads, cause they are not for me. Yet, I feel like some very unfair things are being said that reflect negatively on me, just on the basis of my belonging to my sub group.

Now I don't tend to report a post unless something egregious has been said, something really awful. I don't report other posts with shades of grey because I don't think that is fair, and a lot of good people with good intentions say things sometimes that fall flat. I usually go into the thread and ask them to clarify what they truly mean. But in the case of threads that aren't for my sub group, I can't do that, otherwise I am perceived to be violating someone's space. I don't want to violate anything. And I refuse to report a post that is in that grey area, either. So I guess a pm to the OP is all I can do, but then what I find to be unfair in the thread goes unanswered in the thread, and I guess there's nothing I can do about that.

Jett · 12-10-2009, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

I guess my point is that some things that are said about my particular sub group I have seen in other threads that are meant to be for other sub groups. These things, I believe are well intentioned, but leave me feeling like there are now assumptions about me simply because a few people in my sub group are jerks. I don't feel its appropriate for me to speak up in these threads, cause they are not for me. Yet, I feel like some very unfair things are being said that reflect negatively on me, just on the basis of my belonging to my sub group.

Now I don't tend to report a post unless something egregious has been said, something really awful. I don't report other posts with shades of grey because I don't think that is fair, and a lot of good people with good intentions say things sometimes that fall flat. I usually go into the thread and ask them to clarify what they truly mean. But in the case of threads that aren't for my sub group, I can't do that, otherwise I am perceived to be violating someone's space. I don't want to violate anything. And I refuse to report a post that is in that grey area, either. So I guess a pm to the OP is all I can do, but then what I find to be unfair in the thread goes unanswered in the thread, and I guess there's nothing I can do about that.

Hey I hear you... I've been there. I guess the most we can do in some situations is take solace in the fact that most people with any sense won't characterize an entire group by one persons careless comments.

QueenofQueens · 12-10-2009, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

I guess my point is that some things that are said about my particular sub group I have seen in other threads that are meant to be for other sub groups. These things, I believe are well intentioned, but leave me feeling like there are now assumptions about me simply because a few people in my sub group are jerks. I don't feel its appropriate for me to speak up in these threads, cause they are not for me. Yet, I feel like some very unfair things are being said that reflect negatively on me, just on the basis of my belonging to my sub group.

Now I don't tend to report a post unless something egregious has been said, something really awful. I don't report other posts with shades of grey because I don't think that is fair, and a lot of good people with good intentions say things sometimes that fall flat. I usually go into the thread and ask them to clarify what they truly mean. But in the case of threads that aren't for my sub group, I can't do that, otherwise I am perceived to be violating someone's space. I don't want to violate anything. And I refuse to report a post that is in that grey area, either. So I guess a pm to the OP is all I can do, but then what I find to be unfair in the thread goes unanswered in the thread, and I guess there's nothing I can do about that.

I totally understand the fears you're expressing. I get that as someone who doesn't want to contribute to the oppression or silencing of another group, you don't want to be characterized as one who would. It's difficult to refrain from feeling the need to defend yourself when things are said in ignorance and frustration.
That said, I believe, that it is possible for different groups of people to maintain safe space in order to share mutual, lived, experience and still build bridges with their allies.
To me, wanting to retain a little "personal" space within a bigger community is not about exclusion. I think it's about folks like you bearing witness to your experiences, without interruption, so that you have the fortitude and patience to build better bridges (and just be able to live) outside of that safe space.
I know that as an artist, I crave the company and insight of other artists sometimes. Sometimes I want to have a conversation about an issue I'm dealing with as an artist with other people who "get it" sans background story or explanations. This doesn't exclude the fact that I still love and need my non-artist patrons, allies, and friends.
I think the same is true of gender identities.
While I know it can be hard to feel as though you're "sitting on your hands", I think we can all work to be better allies to those who identify differently than we do. Repping people, sending supportive p.m.s, starting threads that extend an effort to engage in thoughtful dialogue, are all powerful, though seemingly small ways, to let people know that they've been heard and that you respect their self expression. Vis a vis, consistently being a good ally, and proceeding from a place of respect and kindness can have a huge impact on changing the way people think about you and people like you. The good ones (and most are at heart) always come around and that creates community.

I think this site can provide an extremely positive atmosphere of mutual respect that will afford all of us a voice if we just let ourselves, and each other, be heard.

Words · 12-10-2009, 04:29 AM

I started a thread for submissives, making it very clear that that was what it was. Although it's not that active, submissives are posting, including several newly out submissives who consider it a safe enough space to post. The thread is therefore, in my opinion, a positive thread.

So, as the thread starter, what would I do if someone started using our safe space as an opportunity to take obvious pot shots at other groups who weren't in a position - because of the exclusive nature of the thread - to respond? Easy. I'd tell them it's not appropriate because safe, to me, implies maintaining a certain level of common decency, which includes not attacking -remember, I'm talking about extreme accusations here - folks who aren't in a position to defend themselves. And if that didn't work? I'd contact a. a mod., b. the admin., or c. the forum ambassador, depending on the scope of their involvement in individual threads, and ask them to intervene. What I wouldn't do is allow the thread to be de-railed by a pissing match.

Words

Jess · 12-10-2009, 07:54 AM

Wow, I started this discussion just before turning in for the night and wake up to see a great conversation happening! Thanks everyone, for getting my intention!

Atomic, I def hear your point and as a couple of folks have already mentioned, there are ways to find your answers to a statement made without derailing or disrespecting the safe space another sub-group has created. Sending a respectful PM to the person who made the statement is not only a good way to get a direct answer without making that person feel "put on the spot" for something that could easily be a poor choice of words, but it could also result in making a new ally. There is that hope!

In my personal experience, I have entered a space or two that weren't for "my" identification ( yet that was not stated) and made comments I felt innocuous and/or supportive and came to find out later that I should have probably never gone there. Had the thread clearly stated, this thread is for _________, I would have remained a silent observer.

I have watched some threads for specific subgroups grapple with issues stemming from other subgroups ( as you, Atomic are speaking concern with), and have watched them "police" themselves perfectly well. I think when allowed to, most folks will eventually do the "right thing", even though the process my be difficult. They end up teaching and "hearing" one another better regarding the "tough issues", as they are coming from more similar space to have those discussions.

Here is an example and I hope no one will take this in any way other than it is intended, an "example".

A thread in the Femme Zone, brought up the topic of male- centric or masculine- centric behavior to discuss. My thought... if they are trying to discuss how it impacts their lives, they are not going to feel safe doing so if male or masculine identified persons start coming in and commenting.

While the group ( or set of characteristics ) may hit home with me, it is not MY place to insert my comments there. I can instead A) write members who posted comments I wish to have clarified , B) start a discussion within MY group about how we may or may not be perceived C) start a discussion in an "open" space ( such as gender/ community) to discuss how we as a larger community view the issue or D) deal with it on my own.

My point in opening up this discussion is to help ( hopefully) further the important discussions by reminding folks it really is "OK" to ask or demand your private spaces. I don't think we need to fear the "he man womans hater club" . The little rascals have grown up, and more often than not totally amaze me in their ability to work through situations that are "tough" with care, concern and openness .

Thanks again for everyone who took the time to read and/or think about this.

Jess

SFFemmePrincess · 12-10-2009, 12:02 AM

I too think this is a very timely thread, especially at the inception of a new online home. I applaud you for putting it out there that we should be able to designate and start discussions with those we share experience with, without opinions of those who have different experiences. AND NOT FEEL BAD ABOUT IT. I don't think it a weakness to fear excluding, I think it comes from the fact that we are always having to fight for equality/inclusion in the rest of the world that we sometimes forget that we might need to create spaces for ourselves every now and again to as you said gather our strength. And then many times if we do create such spaces, we are met with negativity and said that we are being discriminatory.

12-09-2009, 10:18 PM	#1
atomiczombie Member How Do You Identify?: Femmesensual Transguy Preferred Pronoun?: He, Him, His Relationship Status: Dating Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Rio Vista, CA Posts: 1,225 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 3,949 Thanked 3,221 Times in 759 Posts Rep Power: 21474853	The only thing that would bother me in a sub-group only thread is if there is untrue or over-generalized things said about another sub-group. Then that other sub-group can't say anything about that. It just hangs there in the air un-answered. Other than that, I think it's awesome to have "only" spaces for particular sub-groups, if they felt a need for it. __________________ http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/k...orums_2000.gif Russian Unicorn http://occupiedmedia.us/

12-10-2009, 01:32 AM	#4
atomiczombie Member How Do You Identify?: Femmesensual Transguy Preferred Pronoun?: He, Him, His Relationship Status: Dating Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Rio Vista, CA Posts: 1,225 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 3,949 Thanked 3,221 Times in 759 Posts Rep Power: 21474853	I guess my point is that some things that are said about my particular sub group I have seen in other threads that are meant to be for other sub groups. These things, I believe are well intentioned, but leave me feeling like there are now assumptions about me simply because a few people in my sub group are jerks. I don't feel its appropriate for me to speak up in these threads, cause they are not for me. Yet, I feel like some very unfair things are being said that reflect negatively on me, just on the basis of my belonging to my sub group. Now I don't tend to report a post unless something egregious has been said, something really awful. I don't report other posts with shades of grey because I don't think that is fair, and a lot of good people with good intentions say things sometimes that fall flat. I usually go into the thread and ask them to clarify what they truly mean. But in the case of threads that aren't for my sub group, I can't do that, otherwise I am perceived to be violating someone's space. I don't want to violate anything. And I refuse to report a post that is in that grey area, either. So I guess a pm to the OP is all I can do, but then what I find to be unfair in the thread goes unanswered in the thread, and I guess there's nothing I can do about that. __________________ http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/k...orums_2000.gif Russian Unicorn http://occupiedmedia.us/

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12-10-2009, 04:29 AM	#7
Words Member How Do You Identify?: Queer femme submissive Relationship Status: Married Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: UK Posts: 969 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 1,449 Thanked 4,258 Times in 677 Posts Rep Power: 21474852	I started a thread for submissives, making it very clear that that was what it was. Although it's not that active, submissives are posting, including several newly out submissives who consider it a safe enough space to post. The thread is therefore, in my opinion, a positive thread. So, as the thread starter, what would I do if someone started using our safe space as an opportunity to take obvious pot shots at other groups who weren't in a position - because of the exclusive nature of the thread - to respond? Easy. I'd tell them it's not appropriate because safe, to me, implies maintaining a certain level of common decency, which includes not attacking -remember, I'm talking about extreme accusations here - folks who aren't in a position to defend themselves. And if that didn't work? I'd contact a. a mod., b. the admin., or c. the forum ambassador, depending on the scope of their involvement in individual threads, and ask them to intervene. What I wouldn't do is allow the thread to be de-railed by a pissing match. Words

12-10-2009, 07:54 AM	#8
Jess Timed Out - Permanent How Do You Identify?: decidedly indifferent Preferred Pronoun?: other Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Patrick Springs, VA Posts: 2,812 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 9,247 Thanked 5,700 Times in 1,682 Posts Rep Power: 0	Wow, I started this discussion just before turning in for the night and wake up to see a great conversation happening! Thanks everyone, for getting my intention! Atomic, I def hear your point and as a couple of folks have already mentioned, there are ways to find your answers to a statement made without derailing or disrespecting the safe space another sub-group has created. Sending a respectful PM to the person who made the statement is not only a good way to get a direct answer without making that person feel "put on the spot" for something that could easily be a poor choice of words, but it could also result in making a new ally. There is that hope! In my personal experience, I have entered a space or two that weren't for "my" identification ( yet that was not stated) and made comments I felt innocuous and/or supportive and came to find out later that I should have probably never gone there. Had the thread clearly stated, this thread is for _________, I would have remained a silent observer. I have watched some threads for specific subgroups grapple with issues stemming from other subgroups ( as you, Atomic are speaking concern with), and have watched them "police" themselves perfectly well. I think when allowed to, most folks will eventually do the "right thing", even though the process my be difficult. They end up teaching and "hearing" one another better regarding the "tough issues", as they are coming from more similar space to have those discussions. Here is an example and I hope no one will take this in any way other than it is intended, an "example". A thread in the Femme Zone, brought up the topic of male- centric or masculine- centric behavior to discuss. My thought... if they are trying to discuss how it impacts their lives, they are not going to feel safe doing so if male or masculine identified persons start coming in and commenting. While the group ( or set of characteristics ) may hit home with me, it is not MY place to insert my comments there. I can instead A) write members who posted comments I wish to have clarified , B) start a discussion within MY group about how we may or may not be perceived C) start a discussion in an "open" space ( such as gender/ community) to discuss how we as a larger community view the issue or D) deal with it on my own. My point in opening up this discussion is to help ( hopefully) further the important discussions by reminding folks it really is "OK" to ask or demand your private spaces. I don't think we need to fear the "he man womans hater club" . The little rascals have grown up, and more often than not totally amaze me in their ability to work through situations that are "tough" with care, concern and openness . Thanks again for everyone who took the time to read and/or think about this. Jess

12-10-2009, 12:02 AM	#9
SFFemmePrincess Member How Do You Identify?: Femme Lesbian Princess Preferred Pronoun?: Female Pronouns Relationship Status: Single but also non negotiably non monogamous Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Bay Area Gal! Posts: 142 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 47 Thanked 270 Times in 77 Posts Rep Power: 687706	I too think this is a very timely thread, especially at the inception of a new online home. I applaud you for putting it out there that we should be able to designate and start discussions with those we share experience with, without opinions of those who have different experiences. AND NOT FEEL BAD ABOUT IT. I don't think it a weakness to fear excluding, I think it comes from the fact that we are always having to fight for equality/inclusion in the rest of the world that we sometimes forget that we might need to create spaces for ourselves every now and again to as you said gather our strength. And then many times if we do create such spaces, we are met with negativity and said that we are being discriminatory.