Exclusion: A Women's Issue?

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Originally Posted by blush

I'm not sure who you're directing this question to? I can give you a woman's perspective, but many members of our transgendered community are not and never have been women. Perhaps their opinions/"take on things" may differ? Does that make sense?

As I read it, your question seems to give the "lesser of two evils." On the one hand, if I say I have to "include," then I have an absolute need for approval. If I say I fear "excluding" then I am weak. Could you clarify that?

Can I get some clarification please on the sentence which I bolded, are you saying that FTM's were never women to begin with?

[blush]

Originally Posted by NotAnAverageGuy

Can I get some clarification please on the sentence which I bolded, are you saying that FTM's were never women to begin with?

I'll clarify, but then I'll hush because I realize it's not my place to speak for FTM's.

Female-bodied, yes, women, no. But again, I'm regretting writing that part of my post because I'm not FTM, and I'm not trying to speak for that community.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

I was going to say, I am trans, FTM later on when I can afford it, right now I am female bodied and a woman wrapped in. I will never deny I am a female or a woman, even after my transitition.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by QueenofQueens

I totally understand the fears you're expressing. I get that as someone who doesn't want to contribute to the oppression or silencing of another group, you don't want to be characterized as one who would. It's difficult to refrain from feeling the need to defend yourself when things are said in ignorance and frustration.
That said, I believe, that it is possible for different groups of people to maintain safe space in order to share mutual, lived, experience and still build bridges with their allies.
To me, wanting to retain a little "personal" space within a bigger community is not about exclusion. I think it's about folks like you bearing witness to your experiences, without interruption, so that you have the fortitude and patience to build better bridges (and just be able to live) outside of that safe space.
I know that as an artist, I crave the company and insight of other artists sometimes. Sometimes I want to have a conversation about an issue I'm dealing with as an artist with other people who "get it" sans background story or explanations. This doesn't exclude the fact that I still love and need my non-artist patrons, allies, and friends.
I think the same is true of gender identities.
While I know it can be hard to feel as though you're "sitting on your hands", I think we can all work to be better allies to those who identify differently than we do. Repping people, sending supportive p.m.s, starting threads that extend an effort to engage in thoughtful dialogue, are all powerful, though seemingly small ways, to let people know that they've been heard and that you respect their self expression. Vis a vis, consistently being a good ally, and proceeding from a place of respect and kindness can have a huge impact on changing the way people think about you and people like you. The good ones (and most are at heart) always come around and that creates community.

I think this site can provide an extremely positive atmosphere of mutual respect that will afford all of us a voice if we just let ourselves, and each other, be heard.

The thanks button just isn't enough for the love that I have for this post.

I'd give you a hug, a high five and an orange creme push up pop for this post.

Originally Posted by NotAnAverageGuy

I was going to say, I am trans, FTM later on when I can afford it, right now I am female bodied and a woman wrapped in. I will never deny I am a female or a woman, even after my transitition.

And that is your journey. It's yours and yours alone and it's fantastic because it's YOURS.

HOWEVER...

Many people do not feel as you do. There are many who do not wish to acknowledge or identify that their bodies have any femininity at all. They are men, through and through, from the day they were born in the wrong body and/or with a birth defect until the day they die.

I don't want to put words in blush's mouth, but I think she and I share the experience of knowing others who have never seen themselves as women, despite what others around them see, and that is what I read in her post.

I love the diversity of our community. It's like walking into an ice cream shop full of a million and one flavors. I want to know everything about all of them, which ones have nuts, bubble gum, or berries in them as well as which ones are full-flavored and which are lactose or fat free. I've always been insatiable in my quest to learn more (about select things....I have no interest in the stock market or rebuilding my engine, but people...people I need to figure out) and I feel that being able to see into the minds of my fellow members allows me insight that I can't get anywhere else.

So, if someone were to put up a butches only thread, great. I get the need for a circle of commraderie and empathetic AND sympathetic bonding, I do. I feel that with my femme sisters sometimes.

I just don't know if I'm going to have my wits about me 24/7 enough to remember that, oh no....I can't post in this thread....I have to pm or rep that person instead. And then I begin to wonder if a person brings up a controversial point but only a select group can respond because it's a fill in the blank only type thread, just how many times that person is going to be repped or pm'd because it would be impolite or improper for the 112 people that thought up the exact same question I did to respond in the thread with one post that may clarify everything?

And then I realize that if they, like me, do not have a paid membership, how many of those pms are going to be bounced back to the questioning souls because we...the unpaid membershippers...have only 15 pm spots free for the taking?

And then the reps will fly by so fast that the one they are asking won't even see a fraction of them and then those who are repping in the hopes of finding clarification and knowledge will feel ignored...silenced...because there are so many reps going through that the one they are pming had no CLUE they even wrote. I wonder how much ill will and frustration that would foster?

These are some of my convoluted thoughts right now.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

I understand, I was just wanting some clarification as to what she was saying or trying to say because to me it was coming across as something different.

As yes this is my journey as well but never in my life have I ever felt feminine, I just won't deny that I was never female bodied or a woman, is all that I was trying to convey.

[WILDCAT]

... as my mother would say. (Cross between shit and tit, I guess.)

This topic kind of makes my stomach fold up into knots.

I'm not exactly quite sure what the OP is about - fully. But, the terms "female born, we are all alike/common" kind of made me uncomfortable. (I might have misread or misunderstood this though.)

When this thread opened up last night... I then today took a gander at my "last queer site" and had to shut it right down (for myself), with regards to where they were at with dicussing this type of concern. (Again, my feelings about it, nothing with regards to any progress or intense discussion, etc...)

I see though, that this needs to be hashed out... especially here at a new site.

I could probably list some things that would throw a major tizzy into this thread/thus site, but... I won't, can't - why should I? Why would I?

To me, I just can't understand simply how and why folks just cannot accept and respect each other's spaces.

I have a bit of a problem with the word "exclusive". I admit. (Especially were inclusive is being an open concept here.)

THUS, I can kind of relate with what Jack said. I think "this stuff" and my wife "is open and sweet and believing in all of this lovey...". I totally get.

I wonder why folks are just intrusive at times. Why they instigate. Why some just don't know better...(?) Why they must "post competively".

What is it called? Drive by posting? Drive by "dumping"? Why ruin a thread? (Someone's good mood for the day?!) Why take defense? (But, I do understand the need to be able to defend yourself in any walk of life - and there should NOT be anywhere [here] where someone can BASH another, especially within a same site - and no one can respond!) Heck, that shouldn't happen ANYWHERE, but unfortunately is our reality. This "need" that is...

However, as some have mentioned - I "trust" in the overall goodness, that folks will "stand up" against bullshit within certain trends of threads. I also believe that some threads are wishing and hoping - well, and state as much, for input from "others".

BUT.................................................. ......................... to ME, it comes down to "simple common sense". Would I go into a thread about Femme's and make fun of them, bully or challenge them - for what I believe is "best" for them, etc..? Would I go into a transsexual thread that seemingly wants privacy or support "would be nice and welcome" - and be a complete idiot disrespecting folks there? Hell no. Would I go into a butch thread and "man down" butches just to make myself feel better? What kind of shit would that be? Yet, at times... it seems that these things are happening.

Ya damn part of the problem or the solution? Wake the fuck up now...

How about some basic respect and curteousy? Really. My little analogy keeps running through my head here: I show up at a party and start trashing the celebrations behind it, the folks having a good time... mock it, or get defensive, etc... (Even when I was welcome, but not invited.) But, if I loved and embraced everyone as they were there: WHAT AN INCREDIBLE GIFT "HAPPENING" that could potentially be, YES???!! YAYYYY!!!!!!

I just wonder why we can't look at it something like that here (?)

Hope this gives thought somehow to this topic. I really am a bit perplexed by some of this OP though, I admit - sorry my brain isn't working right lately.

AND I'm also too tired of it - to "receive" correctly. Keep on though!!

SMILE.

Sincerely
WILDCAT

[Jess]

Glad to see we/re all still talking even though we have differing points of view and in some places, may not be exactly hearing one another.

It's way to early to give this my full attention ( and with my ADD, I really need to focus in order to sound halfway coherent). I will get back to this later on in the day.

Thanks again to everyone who has been willing to discuss.

[always2late]

Hmmm interesting thread. I see nothing wrong with "exclusion" in the form of separate threads, and I do not think the OP's intention was to state that others could not view or comment on these threads. I think the point was that if you do not identify as the sub-group included within the thread, then there should be a modicum of respect when posting to THAT thread. If I may risk being exclusionary for a moment...I identify as femme. I would never truly, on a strictly personal level, be able to say that I know what it is to be a butch, or an FTM, or an MTF. I can read the threads as a way to grow and understand, and can even post a respectful question within that context. But as far as "belonging" to that space....no I do not, and it would be incredibly arrogant for me to assume that I do.

I think that separate threads, where people can come together and discuss feelings, common experiences, and their personal journey in a "safe place" is a good thing. I think this form of "exclusion" enhances our community rather than detracts from it.

Just my two cents.

[Random]

I like exclusive spaces.. So many times I see a *Purposed* thread become dominated by those it was not created for... It sort of sucks..

Like going into a thread for book lovers only to find out that it's been derailed by a football game..

Like Gemme... I thrive on how people think, what makes them who they are, I want to know what someone is thinking, why they think it, and how their thinking affect the way they move through the world..

So, I read anything that interests me.. But I don't post in all of these threads/forums... Because some of them, I am not... Some of these threads, I am OTHER... and while I might want to add my thoughts, my voice to the topic.. My fingers might itch with the need to put in my
.02's in... That is my *privilage* talking... If a group of people whom I am not says.. "Hey, we love you, but I really want to talk to someone like me, someone who has faced the same issues.." Then I need to respect that want.. that need...

Random who keeps thinking about the time she was at the comix book store having a wonderful discusson about alternate time lines and histories, and this guy kept trying to redirect the discussion to last nights Huskers game and we all just stared at him and crickets could be heard through out the building...