Top 10 Lesbian Myths

[Nat]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

When it comes to butch cock, why would butch/femme sex in which butch cock plays a starring roll be viewed as imitative of heterosexual sex? I'm a lesbian and that's how I have sex, so it's lesbian sex to me. Straight people can imitate us if they choose. That doesn't bother me a bit.

I think defining "butch-femme sex" as fundamentally different from "lesbian sex" due to the focus on "butch cock" is extremely problematic because it creates a false dividing line between lesbians and butch-femme folks and it stereotypes sexual behavior over the entire spectrum into a very narrow definition.

If that's how you have sex and you're a lesbian, then it's lesbian sex. But to say "X is how butch-femme people have sex," and/or, "Y is how lesbians have sex," is to define a whole lot of behaviors as one single behavior - as though that one single behavior is the defining factor for all of us.

Defining butch-femme sex as centered mainly on the "butch cock" feels pretty sexist/heterosexist (even though heterosexual sex is various just like any other spectrum of sexual behavior), because it's forcing a masculine-centric, phallocentric definition on a broad spectrum of behavior among those who are designated female.

Also, the idea that non-butch-femme lesbian sex is somehow defined by the lack of said cock also feels pretty sexist. It goes back to the idea of defining women by our lack of phallus rather than by the anatomy we actually have (a la Freud's penis envy).

Aside from its sexist/heterosexist overtones, it implies a "no-true-scotsman"-like scenario where "true" or "real" butch-femme folks would not also be lesbians or would not fuck without a "butch cock" involved. It's the kind of thing that puts butch and femme on a sliding scale and discounts/invalidates the identities and sex lives of butches and femmes who prefer other kinds of sex.

(Just one example: Butch bottoms exist and they aren't any less butch for it. When you define butch-femme sex as involving a butch cock, it does feel like an attempt to invalidate butch bottoms and femme tops and switches).

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Nat

I think defining "butch-femme sex" as fundamentally different from "lesbian sex" due to the focus on "butch cock" is extremely problematic because it creates a false dividing line between lesbians and butch-femme folks and it stereotypes sexual behavior over the entire spectrum into a very narrow definition.

If that's how you have sex and you're a lesbian, then it's lesbian sex. But to say "X is how butch-femme people have sex," and/or, "Y is how lesbians have sex," is to define a whole lot of behaviors as one single behavior - as though that one single behavior is the defining factor for all of us.

Defining butch-femme sex as centered mainly on the "butch cock" feels pretty sexist/heterosexist (even though heterosexual sex is various just like any other spectrum of sexual behavior), because it's forcing a masculine-centric, phallocentric definition on a broad spectrum of behavior among those who are designated female.

Also, the idea that non-butch-femme lesbian sex is somehow defined by the lack of said cock also feels pretty sexist. It goes back to the idea of defining women by our lack of phallus rather than by the anatomy we actually have (a la Freud's penis envy).

Aside from its sexist/heterosexist overtones, it implies a "no true scotsman" like scenario where "true" or "real" butch-femme folks would not also be lesbians or would not fuck without a "butch cock" involved. It's the kind of thing that puts butch and femme on a sliding scale and discounts butches and femmes who prefer other kinds of sex.

Very interesting what gets responded to and what doesn't.

Anyway, I am a stone butch lesbian who has a cock not a dildo. I'm engaged in lesbian sex when I am using my cock or it's being pleasured or whatever. I am a lesbian having sex. Lesbians having sex where there is no butch cock involved are also having lesbian sex. Butches and femmes (whether they are lesbians or not) are having sex whether there is a butch cock involved or not. There are as many ways to have sex as a lesbian as anyone else having sex.

Nat, nailed it with post as far as I am concerned. You can't divide up lesbians and butch femmes based on butch cock- that's extremely sexist and narrow minded and inaccurate. It also does follow along heterosexual lines of thinking which is what I believe AtLast is referring to. Butch cock is not the center of the universe for butch femme sex, although many of us are rather fond of it as giver, receiver or both.

[Nat]

PS. I don't think of my cock as a dildo or a toy either, and I do ID as a femme and a lesbian.

When it's attached, it's part of me, it's an extension of me, it's this body/soul/brain cohesion thing and it's awesome.

[LipstickLola]

I'm going to comment from my own personal perspective, hear me please? I mean NO disrespect, no NOTHING (yes, that was intentional albeit grammatically incorrect).

I am a lesbian, and a late bloomer (*read* closeted for many years). That being said, I see and feel my genitalia as female, I adore and love being with another woman who has the same genitalia as me. I do not see myself as having a 'cock' so to speak, and honestly, until I came here, (as I stated in the beginning, to gain a different perspective), I had no clue there was so much delineation and sub-dividing of who we are as women. I do not always understand, in my naivete, I may make a stupid comment, but also mean nothing negative or disrespectful, but some of this is way over my head for a little old middle aged lesbian as myself. Make no mistake about it though, I have great sex!! hot, steamy, passionate, sweaty, all encompassing SEX. Sometimes, I use "toys", to me, IMO, they are an extenstion of my wish to give pleasure to my partner, or, to pleasure myself. They may, or may not be phallic in shape or design, makes no difference to me. Having been married to a male for many years, I'd just as soon leave the "penis" aspect alone, but again, that's just me, and does not in any way mean that I cannot respect YOU, (as in the 'you' of you all here.)

I hope that by expressing my opinion here in the "lesbian" thread, I am not in violation of the TOS, as stated before, I mean no disrespect or anything negative in any way shape or form. I fully realize my opinions do not reflect those of many here as well, Peace!!!

[Rope]

Yes, Bulldog you're right---I live in Gay mecca San Francisco and meet and cross many communities with the Queer community. That said, there are plenty of lesbians in this town that do not like butch/femme folk and IN PART, that is how Butch/Femme Socials got started.

No, a butch (or femme) cock in one's relationship will not prevent lesbian OR butch/femme bed death. My point in saying that there is LESS bed death within our community again was from talking to those who "crossed over" from lesbian to butch/femme community, is from talking to various people who have done this. They found that the dynamic of butch/femme was vastly different than their lesbian life and more open to sex and the communication of sex.

Yes, I know there are those that don't make that distinction between lesbian and butch/femme, that they are lesbians AND butch or femme. Yes, I know that plenty of switches use dildos or their butch or femme cocks---and plenty that have fulfilling sew lives without dildos or cocks, not to mention have a variety of sexual activities. Plenty of lesbians and butch/femme folk do not like or enjoy penetrative sex with cock like instruments or even dildos in the shape of dolphins.

Yes, Bulldog I attended an event at a lesbian bar---and guess what, I wasn't looking at the lesbians in the bar. I wasn't noticing the similarities that we have as "sisters" in this community. I was tracking the butches and femmes. I am glad that you have not had a rough time in your lesbian community.

Rope--

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Rope

Yes, Bulldog you're right---I live in Gay mecca San Francisco and meet and cross many communities with the Queer community. That said, there are plenty of lesbians in this town that do not like butch/femme folk and IN PART, that is how Butch/Femme Socials got started.

No, a butch (or femme) cock in one's relationship will not prevent lesbian OR butch/femme bed death. My point in saying that there is LESS bed death within our community again was from talking to those who "crossed over" from lesbian to butch/femme community, is from talking to various people who have done this. They found that the dynamic of butch/femme was vastly different than their lesbian life and more open to sex and the communication of sex.

Yes, I know there are those that don't make that distinction between lesbian and butch/femme, that they are lesbians AND butch or femme. Yes, I know that plenty of switches use dildos or their butch or femme cocks---and plenty that have fulfilling sew lives without dildos or cocks, not to mention have a variety of sexual activities. Plenty of lesbians and butch/femme folk do not like or enjoy penetrative sex with cock like instruments or even dildos in the shape of dolphins.

Yes, Bulldog I attended an event at a lesbian bar---and guess what, I wasn't looking at the lesbians in the bar. I wasn't noticing the similarities that we have as "sisters" in this community. I was tracking the butches and femmes. I am glad that you have not had a rough time in your lesbian community.

Rope--

Ok Rope,

the part in bold I disagree with. Thanks for the reply.

[Tcountry]

I Love how we can take a thread topic and and have an all out discussion about one thing within the topic...This is such a great community!