Death Penalty - News, Thoughts, Info

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by JustJo

Not snarky, but a real question....

So, in this barren, inhumane, devoid of anything worth living for place that Aj describes....what happens to that same wrongfully convicted person?

They suffer. That's what happens. But if evidence comes to light that would exonerate them, they can be released. Now, that depends upon some evidence coming to light but it at least holds out the possibility.

Now, I'm not sure what kind of person would emerge from this place. It might take some adjustment. There is no way to design a penal system where people are truly punished without the problem of there being innocent people inside that system. But if they are alive, they can be retrieved and hopefully, the human spirit is resilient enough to overcome even that. If they are dead, they are completely irretrievable.

We should build a criminal justice system that is as robust and accurate as it is possible to design and which gives to the defendant the means to establish their innocence if they are, indeed, innocent. That way we can minimize the chances of innocents being subjected to an environment that is, as you so accurately put it, devoid of any reason to live.

The difference is whether we can retrieve someone from our being error-prone or social prejudice.

Cheers
Aj

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Yes, lock them up someplace where they will never again walk free. Keep them in a room where there is enough room for them stand up and lay down. Let their remaining years be a monotonous cycle of getting up, back breaking work, and food that sustains, and let the only thing they have to look forward to is the surety that the next day will contain only the same. Let this place be somewhere from which there is no possibility of escape.* Let them know that barring actual acquittal, they will never again be free and they will die in this prison, alone, nothing more than a number and an entry in a database. Let them know all of that.

You can only kill someone once. If you imprison them, however, you do that for every miserable and monotonous day that they live. Prison does not have to be medieval dungeon filled with the screams of the tortured to be a horrible place. You can create a prison that is filled with such sheer mind-numbing monotony, devoid of creativity in any form, that anyone who had to live in that environment, day after day, year after year, would come in short order to pray for death. If after a time, they wish to kill themselves either you let them or if you really believe that they should truly suffer, then medically intervene, going to whatever heroic efforts you think appropriate, to keep them alive. Let them live with whatever scars they leave themselves, but do not let them die. When, in the fullness of time, their body starts to break down their fate can be decided one of two ways. If, say, they have cancer let the disease take its course. Most forms of cancer, at the end-game, are horrible ways to go. If, on the other hand, they have a heart attack and, again, their suffering is something you relish revive them. Do not fix their heart, but do not let them die. So, for instance, if we are talking about someone who is arrested in their thirties they may be looking at another thirty, forty, possibly fifty years in prison. They have longed for death as the only possible surcease of the soul-killing, mind-numbing, unchanging, routine of monotony. And now, after decades of waiting they finally think that their meeting with Death has finally come and their one means of escape has opened up to them and you snatch it away.

You know what the most devious part of this is? You cannot even give them something to hate. This prison does not go out of its way to make the inmates lives miserable. No one is tortured, not in any conventional sense of the term. But they are cut off from the things that make us human. They need no books or exercise. They need no facilitation of their religion. They need no visitors, no contact with the outside world except their lawyers if some new evidence comes to light. The guards in this prison would, as far as possible, be removed from them so that the prisoners do not even have that contact. There are no recreation facilities, no sports. No art. No music. No games. No cards. No cigarettes. If it is not absolutely required to maintain metabolic functions at a nominal capacity, it is forbidden. I am not talking about an evil place, I am talking about a place that is it to be absolutely and completely impersonal. They will never again feel anything like human warmth.

The prison I am talking about is like exile but without even the hope that you could find another tribe.

If someone does something inhuman, let them live out the rest of their days under conditions that are as far removed from human as is possible. If it were ever possible to completely automate the place so that there need not be human guards *inside* the facility (while still being outside to prevent anyone from escaping) all the better.

Whatever you might want to say about me, having sympathy for the worst of criminals is not it.

*(If lifting out of the gravity well ever becomes inexpensive, I would suggest putting prisons on the moon. There is no possibility of escape, any attempt would bring the absolute certainty of death one way or another--where can you run? )

Cheers
Aj

Isn't this the line of thinking that caused Australia to be populated by non-indiginous people?

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Gemme

Isn't this the line of thinking that caused Australia to be populated by non-indiginous people?

Actually, no. Australia was both exile and colonization by another name. I'm not talking about exile. While an island is a perfect example a very secure prison can be built on the mainland as we already know. There was, in fact, possibility of human hope in Australia. There was variety. People could have human interactions. What I describe is nothing like that. Outside of the basics of medical care and sustenance, I'm talking a prison devoid of any other thing that makes life worth living. The idea with Australian penal colonies was to expand the the British empire. The prisoners would be going nowhere and outside of the exemption of their lawyer with new information, they would never again have contact with a living person from outside the walls of that prison.

Australia, a person could have hope. Outside of the truly innocent, who through some majestic act of will hold on to hope, no inmate would ever have anything to hope for again. There's no parole. There's no getting out unless you were actually innocent. Your sentence is up, when your life is over.

None of that is remotely like what happened in Australia. Even exile would offer more to hope for than this prison environment. At least in exile, you might be able to find a quiet place in the wilderness where you could live out your days. This isn't even that.

Cheers
Aj

[Gemme]

I agree that putting someone in a vaccum would be mental torture for the vast majority of the population. I just cannot justify the expense of keeping people that have been proven (through DNA, repeat identification, etc) to commit heinous crimes alive for decades and I can't imagine what the mental state of an innocent person wrongly accused and sentenced to that punishment would be like in the time it would take to discover the truth. In the end, to me, it would be more cruel to die a slow death every day and then down the road be thrust, unprepared, into the world as it stands at that moment than being sentenced to the death penalty.

But that's what is interesting about us humans. We're different and falliable and just doing the best we can.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Gemme

I agree that putting someone in a vaccum would be mental torture for the vast majority of the population. I just cannot justify the expense of keeping people that have been proven (through DNA, repeat identification, etc) to commit heinous crimes alive for decades and I can't imagine what the mental state of an innocent person wrongly accused and sentenced to that punishment would be like in the time it would take to discover the truth. In the end, to me, it would be more cruel to die a slow death every day and then down the road be thrust, unprepared, into the world as it stands at that moment than being sentenced to the death penalty.

But that's what is interesting about us humans. We're different and falliable and just doing the best we can.

So let me ask you a question. What does justice mean to you? See, it seems that execution is about vengeance. What I'm talking about is punishment. Quite honestly, I think death is too good for some criminals. I want them to have quite a bit of time to sit and reflect upon their crime.

As far as the innocent person, I think that the issue is whether we can retrieve someone from it. I don't know what this would be like, although as I have developed this idea over years of writing, I have refined it in my mind for maximum psychic impact. If there is anything left in someone that can be called human, this place will have an impact on them. But I believe that people are astoundingly resilient. People survived the death camps, people survived the gulag, people survived Sarajevo and people survive war. Perhaps people could survive this. But if they're dead, they're gone.

Cheers
Aj

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

So let me ask you a question. What does justice mean to you? See, it seems that execution is about vengeance. What I'm talking about is punishment. Quite honestly, I think death is too good for some criminals. I want them to have quite a bit of time to sit and reflect upon their crime.

As far as the innocent person, I think that the issue is whether we can retrieve someone from it. I don't know what this would be like, although as I have developed this idea over years of writing, I have refined it in my mind for maximum psychic impact. If there is anything left in someone that can be called human, this place will have an impact on them. But I believe that people are astoundingly resilient. People survived the death camps, people survived the gulag, people survived Sarajevo and people survive war. Perhaps people could survive this. But if they're dead, they're gone.

Cheers
Aj

This isn't because I think anyone here doesn't know, but to show there's a wide variety in the definitions.

Justice
–noun
1. the quality of being just; righteousness, equitableness, or moral rightness: to uphold the justice of a cause.
2. rightfulness or lawfulness, as of a claim or title; justness of ground or reason: to complain with justice.
3. the moral principle determining just conduct.
4. conformity to this principle, as manifested in conduct; just conduct, dealing, or treatment.
5. the administering of deserved punishment or reward.
6. the maintenance or administration of what is just by law, as by judicial or other proceedings: a court of justice.
7. judgment of persons or causes by judicial process: to administer justice in a community.
8. a judicial officer; a judge or magistrate.
9. ( initial capital letter ) Also called Justice Department. the Department of Justice.
—Idioms
10. bring to justice, to cause to come before a court for trial or to receive punishment for one's misdeeds: The murderer was brought to justice.
11. do justice,
a. to act or treat justly or fairly.
b. to appreciate properly: We must see this play again to do it justice.
c. to acquit in accordance with one's abilities or potentialities: He finally got a role in which he could do himself justice as an actor.


For myself, it's along the lines of Newton's Laws of Motion...action/reaction to be exact...like a pendulum. They (criminals) swing to the extreme left and the punishment is the corresponding swing to the right. Justice, to me, is not only the determination of a proper punishment but the administering of the punishment that should be equal to or greater than the crime.

As for any potential innocents surviving that sort of punishment....surviving is not living and my experience with people with who have survived extremely traumatic events has shown me that, in many of those circumstances, death would have been kinder.

Thanks for the debate and have a good night.

[Nat]

If I'm ever convicted of a crime I didn't commit, I would prefer life to death.

[Medusa]

I am absolutely, unequivocally opposed to the death penalty under all circumstances.

It actually scares the shit out of me that we live in a world where other people get to decide if someone lives or dies based on breaking rules of society.

Now, before anyone twitches, Im not at all saying that people who rape, murder, commit child molestation, etc. don't need to be punished, but I am greatly bothered by different people receiving the death penalty based on the systemic oppressions in our world.

For example, adultery is punishable by death in countries such as Yemen and Iran. If adultery is defined as "sex outside of marriage", I would venture to guess that a great many of us would be dead had we lived in those countries.

Is it fucked up that these countries kill grown adults who want to have sex with one another consensually? I think so.

Now think about this, homosexuality is punishable by death in countries such as Yemen and some parts of Nigeria. 100% of the people on this website would be dead if we lived in those countries.
Is that fucked up?
I think so, but those are the laws of those countries.

My point is that I don't think that human beings, no matter their level of education, class, creed, or history, have a right to put another human being to death. Punish the shit out of them? Yes. Throw them in prison? Yes. Rehabilitate them? Yes.

Kill them? Not for me, no.

I think about the thousands of men of Color in the prison systems in this country and how the crimes they committed were often perpetrated under an oppressive and intentional system of power abuse. Does that mean that these people aren't responsible for their crimes? Absolutely not. I think that if you are an adult and you rob, rape, murder, etc. then you have to pay for your crimes.

Do I believe that many of these men raped, robbed, or murdered because they were trying (in a fucked up way) to gain power? Maybe.

Again, not diminishing the fact that there are people in this world who do terrible, evil things. There are.

Still, I think about the people who do terrible things because of what they have been through, people who are wrongfully accused, people who are mentally ill and still put to death.

I think of those people and know that there is a better, more humane way.