Obama's Public Support of Michael Vick

[SnackTime]

Originally Posted by suebee

Pit bulls are lovely creatures. Yet many municipalities have banned them. At a great many shelters pitties are euthanized simply for being pitties. Why? Because the dog fighting industry has tainted the reputation of the breed to the extent that it's considered poisonous to insurance companies, landlords, peace officers, and many "shelters".

Sue

I disagree with a lot of your post but this paragraph stuck in my head. I do not believe that the breed has gotten a bad rap because of the dog fighting industry. I have seen several reports on the news where the family pet (pit bull) attacked a family member and the animal had to be put down. I have been seeing these reports long before the dog fighting rings were being talked about in the media.

I know a lady whose granddaughter had to have 26 surgeries because the family pet attacked her (her and the dog grew up together). The doctors told them that if the dogs jaws would have been locked on the child for a minute longer she would not have survived.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by SnackTime

I disagree with a lot of your post but this paragraph stuck in my head. I do not believe that the breed has gotten a bad rap because of the dog fighting industry. I have seen several reports on the news where the family pet (pit bull) attacked a family member and the animal had to be put down. I have been seeing these reports long before the dog fighting rings were being talked about in the media.

I know a lady whose granddaughter had to have 26 surgeries because the family pet attacked her (her and the dog grew up together). The doctors told them that if the dogs jaws would have been locked on the child for a minute longer she would not have survived.

I was waiting for something like this. This is precisely the sort of prejudiced, ill-informed comment that perpetuates ignorant stereotypes and promotes mass hysteria. There are also numerous stories of how these loyal and brave dogs have saved lives and prevented harm.

Bite stories and statistics rarely report whether a bite or "attack" was provoked or not. Any dog can bite, obviously a larger dog's bite is going to do more damage, and so more caution needs to be - but often enough is not - exercised. I know more people who have been bitten, and rather ferociously, by small dogs (talk to vet techs and groomers and ask them which dogs are most likely to bite them). There is nothing in the breeding of a pit bull type dog that will give it a greater to propensity to "random" attacks/bites. They are a terrier breed, though, and tenacity is a breed characteristic. They are also extremely strong, as are rottweilers, dobermans, German shepherds and a multitude of other breeds, from whom even an accidental bite can be very damaging. Dog attacks occur as a result of negligent dog owners who ignore warning signs, don't train their pets, don't socialize them, or even abuse them. A majority of dog attacks are completely preventable.

Unfortunately, a lot of these dogs are also victims of abuse, such as the Bad Newz Kennel dogs, or from other rescue situations. The enormous popularity of pit bull type dogs has led to a large number of them ending up in shelter situations, which creates a plethora of difficulties for any dog, which few people are really equipped to deal with.

Bull and terrier types (American Staffordshires, English Bull Terrriers, etc) are unique dogs with a distinct breeding history, which does NOT include aggression toward humans. That part, sadly, is solely the province of irresponsible and ignorant humans.

Some people shouldn't own pit bulls, just as some people can't drive muscle, or other high performance cars. It's the same way with horses, pick a breed and individual suited to you.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Sigh

I love a thick steak, rare.

Abuse is abuse, I hope I really do he learned his lesson. If Vick was not a commodity to the team or owners he'd be another one of our black men in jail, pfft we wouldn't even know who Vick was if that was the case.

[dixie]

As for what Vick did, yes, I think it was totally heinous and can only hope that he truly is reformed (even if I personally don't think he is). As for Obama, I see nothing wrong with what he did and do not feel that it should bias election opinions solely based on this act. Everyone's using examples so I'll throw in my own. Would we be having this conversation if Obama was showing support to another "reformed" person? For example, if he went into an inner city youth program being ran by a former gang member who is now "reformed" and showed his support would there be an issue? Or perhaps to an ex-prostitute who is now helping get others off the street? To me, it's all the same in my mind. If someone truly is "reformed" and goes back to being a normal citizen and even a productive member of the community, should we NOT support them? And no, this is not just a defense for Vick because I could care less one way or the other for the man, and do think his penalties should have been more severe to begin with (especially since I am a hardcore animal lover). But also, I think other athletes and celebrities should have to face the same consequences for their crimes as "civilian" citizens. They get off far too easily in most cases, but that's another rant all together...

As for the animals, I agree with Bent. I grew up in an area where dog and cock fighting were rampant, and still goes on today. I had an in-law who raised fighting pits. I have seen those fighting animals as completely aggressive towards other animals yet gentle with humans, so there goes most folks preconceived notions about that. (And no, I do NOT condone ANY animal cruelty in any form, and was very happy when this person's ring got shut down.) I myself have had these animals for pets, and know from experience that it is not necessarily a "genetic" trait or preconceived behavioral pattern for these animals. Did you know that in the 40s and 50s pitbulls were the number 1 family dog in America? Did you know that you have a higher chance of being attacked by a German Shepherd or Dalmation than you do of a pit? Or that aggression issues are more prevelant in smaller breeds? Up until a few years ago, the cocker spaniel was the number one most aggressive dog in breed studies and pits didn't even make that list. It has become highly sensationalized and "popluar" to blame/shame pits after the major publicizing of dog fighting ring crackdowns in the last 10 or so years. It does not matter if you raise a pit or a poodle or a chihuahua from birth, or whether you have known bloodlines. ANY animal has the capacity and capability to attack or become vicious. Unfortunately for pits, they seem to be the only ones that ever make headlines...

[suebee]

Originally Posted by SnackTime

I disagree with a lot of your post but this paragraph stuck in my head. I do not believe that the breed has gotten a bad rap because of the dog fighting industry. I have seen several reports on the news where the family pet (pit bull) attacked a family member and the animal had to be put down. I have been seeing these reports long before the dog fighting rings were being talked about in the media.

I know a lady whose granddaughter had to have 26 surgeries because the family pet attacked her (her and the dog grew up together). The doctors told them that if the dogs jaws would have been locked on the child for a minute longer she would not have survived.

I see Mr. Bent has addressed the pit bull issue. So I'll just say that pit bull or poodle - NONE of those animals deserved to be abused, tortured and (some) killed! I don't see how this is even disputable. Perhaps that's why the breed is being put into question. I don't think those dogs cared what breed they were when they were suffering at the hands of those idiots.

[Corkey]

The only time I've ever been bit was by a Scottie, the poor thing was in his death throes, but still. I have been around pitties for a long time, various partners and landlords, not once have I ever even had the thought that a pitt would become aggressive with me or anyone I was with.
It isn't the breed, it's the incompetent, ignorant owner.
ALL dogs can bite, all humans should be aware of their own behavior.

[SnackTime]

Originally Posted by suebee

I see Mr. Bent has addressed the pit bull issue. So I'll just say that pit bull or poodle - NONE of those animals deserved to be abused, tortured and (some) killed! I don't see how this is even disputable. Perhaps that's why the breed is being put into question. I don't think those dogs cared what breed they were when they were suffering at the hands of those idiots.

I never stated in my post that any animal deserves to be abused or tortured.

[betenoire]

I think that dogs, in general, have an undeserved poor reputation. I have grown up with dogs. All my life until I moved out of my parents house I have lived with at least 2 dogs at all times. Rotties, Dobermans, German Shepherds, Dalmations, Labs, and even a Pitbull. My parents like their dogs big, so do I.

I have never been bitten by a dog.

Now, ask me how many times I've had to go to the hospital because I was attacked by a cat.

[Waldo]

Originally Posted by betenoire

I think that dogs, in general, have an undeserved poor reputation. I have grown up with dogs. All my life until I moved out of my parents house I have lived with at least 2 dogs at all times. Rotties, Dobermans, German Shepherds, Dalmations, Labs, and even a Pitbull. My parents like their dogs big, so do I.

I have never been bitten by a dog.

Now, ask me how many times I've had to go to the hospital because I was attacked by a cat.

What the hell are you doing to those cats??

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by Waldo

What the hell are you doing to those cats??

I take in strays.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Waldo

What the hell are you doing to those cats??

Originally Posted by betenoire

I take in strays.

Maybe they don't want you to take them in ?

[suebee]

Originally Posted by suebee

I see Mr. Bent has addressed the pit bull issue. So I'll just say that pit bull or poodle - NONE of those animals deserved to be abused, tortured and (some) killed! I don't see how this is even disputable. Perhaps that's why the breed is being put into question. I don't think those dogs cared what breed they were when they were suffering at the hands of those idiots.

Originally Posted by SnackTime

I never stated in my post that any animal deserves to be abused or tortured.

To clarify: I said Mr. Bent had addressed the pit bull issue. I simply continuted with the conversation.

[nycfem]

Mo'Kelly's take via Huffington:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/morris..._b_801965.html

[Sachita]

The biggest problem with pits and dogs like rotties is the power of their jaw. Any dog can turn aggressive. Some breeds, like pits are just more capable of killing quickly and thats what makes this a dangerous breed. My rottie Bear (RIP) was the most gentle animal I ever met and 120 pounds but there was no doubt in my mind he could kill a human within seconds. Could a lab do this? Probably not. I've broken up dog fights before and I've been bitten by dogs (as well as many other animals). I would not, under any circumstances break up a fight with a pit, rottie, etc. I would scream like a crazy person, pick up objects and throw it.

another thing and you can disagree as much as you want- I would never leave a jaw strong breed or any dog for that matter alone with a child. I've seen the most calm breeds become scared and turn into monsters.

I board pits and most all dogs. I am more cautious and supervise them around other dogs because I know what they are capable of. This doesnt mean a human has the right to abuse them in any way

[The_Lady_Snow]

The dog is not the problem, it's the treatment they received from their caretakers be it past, now or future.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Sachita

The biggest problem with pits and dogs like rotties is the power of their jaw. Any dog can turn aggressive. Some breeds, like pits are just more capable of killing quickly and thats what makes this a dangerous breed. My rottie Bear (RIP) was the most gentle animal I ever met and 120 pounds but there was no doubt in my mind he could kill a human within seconds. Could a lab do this? Probably not. I've broken up dog fights before and I've been bitten by dogs (as well as many other animals). I would not, under any circumstances break up a fight with a pit, rottie, etc. I would scream like a crazy person, pick up objects and throw it.

another thing and you can disagree as much as you want- I would never leave a jaw strong breed or any dog for that matter alone with a child. I've seen the most calm breeds become scared and turn into monsters.

I board pits and most all dogs. I am more cautious and supervise them around other dogs because I know what they are capable of. This doesnt mean a human has the right to abuse them in any way

I think this is a critical point, and one reason why people that don't know, understand and handle dogs properly shouldn't (I think) own these breeds. We have a mini-dacshund and, as someone previously pointed out, they are a biting breed. Ours doesn't, but I've met many that do. The difference is that a doxie really can't do much harm given their size and strength. Worst case scenario might require a stitch or two....and they can be absolutely restrained easily even by a sensible child.

I've known wonderful pits, rotties and dobermans...but I wouldn't own one. Not because there's anything wrong with the breed, but because I know myself - and I don't have the dedication that it takes to train and handle these breeds properly.

It's a shame that these breeds seem to attract, in many cases, the absolute last people who should own them.

[Medusa]

Did anyone see the article this morning with that Tucker idiot saying that Michael Vick should have gotten the death penalty?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/1..._n_802192.html

Does anyone see the mental illness in that?

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by JustJo

have the dedication that it takes to train and handle these breeds properly.

It's a shame that these breeds seem to attract, in many cases, the absolute last people who should own them.

bingo. that is the essence of it right there. I have a customer that has a Great Pyrenees she keeps as an indoor dog. This dog should be outside, up all night barking and protecting his home. Nothing would make this dog happier. When he comes I let him bark all night and sleep on the deck. (he has a dog door to come in but prefers outdoors)

People dont research breeds before taking them into their homes. This is so important. You should not take in large breeds unless you know you're able to handle them and feed them. Just MY animals- dogs and pig (pig eats same dog food) I spend at least 150-200 a month. Also, check because some breeds are more prone to medical conditions and vet care is something you need to consider when taking any pet.

I have an awesome pit posted on my facebook right now needing a home. He's an awesome dog for a one on one owner he can feel safe and bond with. He would not be good with other dogs, cats or children because he was abused- kicked, left to starve and neglected. The lady that has him now says he fights to be near her because she probably is the only person in his life that has ever shown him any affection. He's an awesome dog for the right person. It makes me cry.

I've seen so much abuse and crap these past few years. Its probably the industry I'm in and my work in adoptions. I think its great to be concerned, love animals and definitely talk about it but its awesome when you are proactive and helping to find solutions. It doesnt have to cost a lot of money or even time. just a consistent plan and commitment.

As I type this I wait for a quote on programming to build that foster pet connection site I keep talking about. Its going to help so many people and animals. I hope you'll all support me.

[katsarecool]

Originally Posted by June

I keep going back to this post, Jo -- Can you explain what you mean by this? Who are the last people who should own pitbulls?

Thanks,

June

June, I know in my experience with breeding my Rottie many years ago I had many people who I would describe as thugs and very possible drug dealers wanting to buy one of the puppies in order to protect their "property". I did not sell them one. And the people that thought having a Rottie would be an extension of their "manhood" didn't get a puppy either. It was a very small town so it was easy to know who was who and who had good intentions.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by June

I keep going back to this post, Jo -- Can you explain what you mean by this? Who are the last people who should own pitbulls?

Thanks,

June

Hi June,

I have known several people who own pitbulls because of their negative reputation...and who do everything they can to foster that image of a vicious, tough dog by encouraging that behavior. For me, those are the last people who should own them. (Sorry I didn't explain that better).

I think that anyone who owns an animal has a responsibility to make certain that they are well-cared for, but also that they are good "doggy citizens."

Example...we take our mini-doxie to the local dog beach. The sign clearly states that only well-behaved, well-controlled dogs should be allowed off leash. Dogs that don't fit that description are still welcome, but have to remain on leash. Dogs that are not controllable with a leash should not be there at all. Pretty basic.

We let Shadow run off leash. He's tiny. He's not aggressive. He loves everyone. And he plays well with other dogs. If pushed, he goes passive, belly up, and let's other dogs be the boss. No problem.

A couple weeks ago, we were leaving the beach...Shadow trotting along ahead of me off leash towards the parking lot. Suddenly, he's hurtling back towards me as fast as his little legs can carry him....with what appeared to be a half-grown pitbull or pitbull mix in hot pursuit. Behind the other dog is his owner...drunk, swearing, swinging a leather leash and striking the dog while cussing at him...his effort at "controlling" his dog. Shadow, perfectly aware that he is squeaky-toy-sized, hides between my legs....with the other dog lunging at him and snapping.

It was almost funny....half-grown pitbull racing in circles around my legs, with drunk man running loopier circles in deep sand around behind him. The problem, of course, is that his dog is snapping at mine (and close to my ankles). When his dog connected and bit my dog's ear, on about the 8th or 10th circle....with crowd gathering....I'd had enough. I picked up my dog and, when his dog jumped up to snap at Shadow in my arms, gave him a solid knee to the chest and told him "get down" in a stern voice.

The pit stopped and looked at me like I was crazy, but he also stopped what he was doing. Clearly, this wasn't a bad dog. This was a bad owner. However, I would bet that in a few years, after being beaten and chased and yanked around by a drunken idiot...might be a different story.

And, yes, I would have preferred to knee the guy in the chest instead of the dog.