Male ID butch vs. FTM??

[Martina]

Isn't male privilege useful FOR speaking up when sexist remarks are made? i know this is a trans thread. i am not sure i can do any good by speaking here. i have been asked questions and then criticized for coming in here at all. My responses have been characterized as finger wagging and as shouting down. i can't really productively engage with that.

Thinker and Ender, it's not about how i feel about the lives of transmen. Of course, i must take responsibility for cis-privilege. And it's not, imo, about what goes on here on this thread or on this site. I am not trying to silence anyone here or anywhere.

I restate my point, that in the world, men who are not aware of male privilege, do harm. i hope that all men take responsibility for that unequivocally. i do not think that requests for exemptions, if that is what i am hearing, make any sense in real world situations.

i have no control over any one else's behavior. i do not want it. i do know that the more often i am told that my concern with the harm that male privilege can do should not be a priority, the less likely i am to hear others' concerns also. Male privilege is a safety issue for me.

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by Martina

Isn't male privilege useful FOR speaking up when sexist remarks are made? i know this is a trans thread. i am not sure i can do any good by speaking here. i have been asked questions and then criticized for coming in here at all. My responses have been characterized as finger wagging and as shouting down. i can't really productively engage with that.

Thinker and Ender, it's not about how i feel about the lives of transmen. Of course, i must take responsibility for cis-privilege. And it's not, imo, about what goes on here on this thread or on this site. I am not trying to silence anyone here or anywhere.

I restate my point, that in the world, men who are not aware of male privilege, do harm. i hope that all men take responsibility for that unequivocally. i do not think that requests for exemptions, if that is what i am hearing, make any sense in real world situations.

i have no control over any one else's behavior. i do not want it. i do know that the more often i am told that my concern with the harm that male privilege can do should not be a priority, the less likely i am to hear others' concerns also. Male privilege is a safety issue for me.

I'm embarrassed to admit that I'm not entirely clear what you're saying here. Does this have to do with my decision not to engage Jacques or respond to his comment?

If so (and I realize that may not be what your point was) then all I have to say to that is this... Sometimes people post things here for NO OTHER REASON than to spark a fire or poke at someone/something. For me, personally, I felt that was what was happening, and I opted not to go down a road that I (again, just me) felt would be fruitless and would take the light off what I felt was a more important discussion.

Again, that's just me and why I did what I did and said what I said.

I know from experience (as I'm sure most of us do) that you can't educate everyone and you can't get them to see another perspective. I also know that in discussion forums, in particular, there are people who *intentionally* drop little stink bombs just to get the discussion to go elsewhere. I just wasn't willing to do that, and I still don't think it would have been wise or beneficial to engage Jacques in that instance.

And again, to Jacques... I really mean no disrespect to you on a personal level. I just have a strong gut feeling that you weren't really trying to participate in a positive way. The fact that you only made one comment and then repeated it tells me I just might be right.

And if I'm wrong...well....it won't be the first time and it certainly won't be the last.

Martina, if I was way off here, my apologies to you. Like I said, I couldn't grasp a clear point with what you wrote. I'm sure that's on me. If I was off, then maybe you wouldn't mind a little elaboration???

Respectfully,
Thinker

[Martina]

My first sentence had to do with that. And i agree it's every person's choice whether to engage, but it just seemed ironic given the discussion.

The rest had to do with previous posts in which you and Ender had asked me some questions.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by Martina

My first sentence had to do with that. And i agree it's every person's choice whether to engage, but it just seemed ironic given the discussion.

The rest had to do with previous posts in which you and Ender had asked me some questions.

Your posts have been perfectly clear. I agree with you. There is no justification for anyone exerting any kind of gender privilege over anyone, ever. How they arrive at that privilege is incidental.

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by Martina

My first sentence had to do with that. And i agree it's every person's choice whether to engage, but it just seemed ironic given the discussion.

I agree with you on both counts. And given the situation, the manner in which he posted, and a little history of similar posts, I opted out of engaging.

I do the very best I can in navigating this new "me" and my new life. I have addressed unbelievably ignorant and cruel statements and felt my heart beating in my throat when doing so. I have also ignored some ignorant sh*t.

I don't think for one second I have made the correct decision each time. As a matter of fact, I think I screw up quite a bit. But I can say with 100% certainty that I do more good than harm, and I treat ALL people with the same courtesy and respect with which I would like to be treated.

It would be nice if you and everyone I come across approved of every choice I made/make, but that's just not gonna happen. In this particular situation, you have reasons for believing something should have been said; and I have reasons for believing that addressing it would have been a bad move. I don't think either of us is wrong or intended harm; we just see it differently.

[SelfMadeMan]

I think most, if not all, the guys participating in this thread are acknowledging that male privilege exists within the trans community. No one is denying that privilege, but the extent of said privilege, and personal responsibility just can't be applied across the board. There are so many more things that factor into it, and you also have to take into consideration the fact that society is FAR from a safe place for many members of the trans community. Transmen still get shunned, fired, raped, beat, and murdered in this country if they are "found out" by people in their communities. I have received death threats in the past, I was fired from a wonderful job as Marketing Coordinator for a large company. Bad things still happen to us. So a lot of people live in fear of being "found out".
I think what people are trying to say, is that there are so many things that factor in where transmen are concerned, and it's not as simple as, ok you're a man now, here's all your privilege, your life just got easier. It sort of minimizes how difficult transition can be, and how taxing it is personally and socially. We simply don't all get the privilege of living out loud a lot of the time.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

I think most, if not all, the guys participating in this thread are acknowledging that male privilege exists within the trans community. No one is denying that privilege, but the extent of said privilege, and personal responsibility just can't be applied across the board. There are so many more things that factor into it, and you also have to take into consideration the fact that society is FAR from a safe place for many members of the trans community. Transmen still get shunned, fired, raped, beat, and murdered in this country if they are "found out" by people in their communities. I have received death threats in the past, I was fired from a wonderful job as Marketing Coordinator for a large company. Bad things still happen to us. So a lot of people live in fear of being "found out".
I think what people are trying to say, is that there are so many things that factor in where transmen are concerned, and it's not as simple as, ok you're a man now, here's all your privilege, your life just got easier. It sort of minimizes how difficult transition can be, and how taxing it is personally and socially. We simply don't all get the privilege of living out loud a lot of the time.

I agree with you very much in terms of what for me is an over simplification of facts and issues concerning transmen and male privilege. It is complicated and it bothers me that generalizations are made about this whole area.

And I also need to point out that many female or male identified butches are subjected to the same kinds of threats and violence (I certainly have been beat up- and yes, raped and I continue to watch where I go). Femmes are as well. We queers in general are not exactly welcome by all.

I wish we all could look at these variables without lumping each other into boxes. My transmen friends all have varying insights into their experiences with male privilege- they are individuals with varying backgrounds. And my son (non-trans) has a whole different take on things as a feminist male in US society. Transwomen I know can also be a good resource for looking at the opposite effect of losing this privilege.

For me, it all comes down to personal consciousness-

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

I think most, if not all, the guys participating in this thread are acknowledging that male privilege exists within the trans community. No one is denying that privilege, but the extent of said privilege, and personal responsibility just can't be applied across the board. There are so many more things that factor into it, and you also have to take into consideration the fact that society is FAR from a safe place for many members of the trans community. Transmen still get shunned, fired, raped, beat, and murdered in this country if they are "found out" by people in their communities. I have received death threats in the past, I was fired from a wonderful job as Marketing Coordinator for a large company. Bad things still happen to us. So a lot of people live in fear of being "found out".
I think what people are trying to say, is that there are so many things that factor in where transmen are concerned, and it's not as simple as, ok you're a man now, here's all your privilege, your life just got easier. It sort of minimizes how difficult transition can be, and how taxing it is personally and socially. We simply don't all get the privilege of living out loud a lot of the time.

Mike I agree with this. I think it is helpful to hear the complexities of what transmen go through to understand better and to acknowledge your struggles.

However, I also haven't seen Martina or anyone else who has brought up male privilege saying transmen have the same amount of privilege as a male who isn't trans either. From my perspective people have been taken to task and it feels extremely frustrating and silencing.

When women experience sexism from men it feels exactly the same whether they are transmen or not- or at least it does to many. When transmen talk down at me on this forum (not all do), it feels exactly the same as if a man out on the street who isn't trans does. So we have to experience sexism and the effects of male privilege over and over- and from many womens experience it doesn't feel any different whether someone is trans or not.

Male privilege can indeed be situational and vary depending on race, class, being trans or not and other factors. I don't see where anyone has denied that.

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by BullDog

From my perspective people have been taken to task and it feels extremely frustrating and silencing.

From my perspective, many people have come here (and gone into other discussions) and attempted to engage in challenging conversations that they do not see eye-to-eye on and, quite possibly, will always disagree. Those are hard conversations with opposing viewpoints; they're not "taking people to task". Again, that's my perspective on it.

And, to me, it feels frustrating and silencing when people who do not want to be challenged say that the opposing view being presented is silencing. Personally, and it's not just in this thread, we are watering down the "silencing" thing to where we won't be able to see it or really know what it means when it really *does* happen. And, yes, I do know it happens.

Actually, I think if I come into a discussion and share *my* experience from *my* *me* space and someone comes in and tells me that my post is silencing, then I feel like *they* are trying to silence me.

So again... It's a catch 22.

Bulldog, it's sad to me but it has become very clear to me over the past few months that you and I see these things VERY differently. I don't recall that it was ever that way some years back.

But things to do change. I know that a lot about my life has changed in the past two years, and I also know that my heart, soul, and spirit have not......nor has my mind. Maybe it's the physical changes in me that you have come to object to; I don't know. But I'm still the same person, and I still stand for the same things I always have.

What I have noticed here is that when someone responds to you (or Martina or whomever) with an opposing position, you call foul. *That*, to me, is frustrating. How are we supposed to have a hard conversation about this stuff? I don't feel we can.

So if you feel those types of replies are "silencing" then you should probably report that......all of them.