Male ID butch vs. FTM??

[Martina]

My first sentence had to do with that. And i agree it's every person's choice whether to engage, but it just seemed ironic given the discussion.

The rest had to do with previous posts in which you and Ender had asked me some questions.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by Martina

My first sentence had to do with that. And i agree it's every person's choice whether to engage, but it just seemed ironic given the discussion.

The rest had to do with previous posts in which you and Ender had asked me some questions.

Your posts have been perfectly clear. I agree with you. There is no justification for anyone exerting any kind of gender privilege over anyone, ever. How they arrive at that privilege is incidental.

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by Martina

My first sentence had to do with that. And i agree it's every person's choice whether to engage, but it just seemed ironic given the discussion.

I agree with you on both counts. And given the situation, the manner in which he posted, and a little history of similar posts, I opted out of engaging.

I do the very best I can in navigating this new "me" and my new life. I have addressed unbelievably ignorant and cruel statements and felt my heart beating in my throat when doing so. I have also ignored some ignorant sh*t.

I don't think for one second I have made the correct decision each time. As a matter of fact, I think I screw up quite a bit. But I can say with 100% certainty that I do more good than harm, and I treat ALL people with the same courtesy and respect with which I would like to be treated.

It would be nice if you and everyone I come across approved of every choice I made/make, but that's just not gonna happen. In this particular situation, you have reasons for believing something should have been said; and I have reasons for believing that addressing it would have been a bad move. I don't think either of us is wrong or intended harm; we just see it differently.

[SelfMadeMan]

I think most, if not all, the guys participating in this thread are acknowledging that male privilege exists within the trans community. No one is denying that privilege, but the extent of said privilege, and personal responsibility just can't be applied across the board. There are so many more things that factor into it, and you also have to take into consideration the fact that society is FAR from a safe place for many members of the trans community. Transmen still get shunned, fired, raped, beat, and murdered in this country if they are "found out" by people in their communities. I have received death threats in the past, I was fired from a wonderful job as Marketing Coordinator for a large company. Bad things still happen to us. So a lot of people live in fear of being "found out".
I think what people are trying to say, is that there are so many things that factor in where transmen are concerned, and it's not as simple as, ok you're a man now, here's all your privilege, your life just got easier. It sort of minimizes how difficult transition can be, and how taxing it is personally and socially. We simply don't all get the privilege of living out loud a lot of the time.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

I think most, if not all, the guys participating in this thread are acknowledging that male privilege exists within the trans community. No one is denying that privilege, but the extent of said privilege, and personal responsibility just can't be applied across the board. There are so many more things that factor into it, and you also have to take into consideration the fact that society is FAR from a safe place for many members of the trans community. Transmen still get shunned, fired, raped, beat, and murdered in this country if they are "found out" by people in their communities. I have received death threats in the past, I was fired from a wonderful job as Marketing Coordinator for a large company. Bad things still happen to us. So a lot of people live in fear of being "found out".
I think what people are trying to say, is that there are so many things that factor in where transmen are concerned, and it's not as simple as, ok you're a man now, here's all your privilege, your life just got easier. It sort of minimizes how difficult transition can be, and how taxing it is personally and socially. We simply don't all get the privilege of living out loud a lot of the time.

I agree with you very much in terms of what for me is an over simplification of facts and issues concerning transmen and male privilege. It is complicated and it bothers me that generalizations are made about this whole area.

And I also need to point out that many female or male identified butches are subjected to the same kinds of threats and violence (I certainly have been beat up- and yes, raped and I continue to watch where I go). Femmes are as well. We queers in general are not exactly welcome by all.

I wish we all could look at these variables without lumping each other into boxes. My transmen friends all have varying insights into their experiences with male privilege- they are individuals with varying backgrounds. And my son (non-trans) has a whole different take on things as a feminist male in US society. Transwomen I know can also be a good resource for looking at the opposite effect of losing this privilege.

For me, it all comes down to personal consciousness-

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

I think most, if not all, the guys participating in this thread are acknowledging that male privilege exists within the trans community. No one is denying that privilege, but the extent of said privilege, and personal responsibility just can't be applied across the board. There are so many more things that factor into it, and you also have to take into consideration the fact that society is FAR from a safe place for many members of the trans community. Transmen still get shunned, fired, raped, beat, and murdered in this country if they are "found out" by people in their communities. I have received death threats in the past, I was fired from a wonderful job as Marketing Coordinator for a large company. Bad things still happen to us. So a lot of people live in fear of being "found out".
I think what people are trying to say, is that there are so many things that factor in where transmen are concerned, and it's not as simple as, ok you're a man now, here's all your privilege, your life just got easier. It sort of minimizes how difficult transition can be, and how taxing it is personally and socially. We simply don't all get the privilege of living out loud a lot of the time.

Mike I agree with this. I think it is helpful to hear the complexities of what transmen go through to understand better and to acknowledge your struggles.

However, I also haven't seen Martina or anyone else who has brought up male privilege saying transmen have the same amount of privilege as a male who isn't trans either. From my perspective people have been taken to task and it feels extremely frustrating and silencing.

When women experience sexism from men it feels exactly the same whether they are transmen or not- or at least it does to many. When transmen talk down at me on this forum (not all do), it feels exactly the same as if a man out on the street who isn't trans does. So we have to experience sexism and the effects of male privilege over and over- and from many womens experience it doesn't feel any different whether someone is trans or not.

Male privilege can indeed be situational and vary depending on race, class, being trans or not and other factors. I don't see where anyone has denied that.

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by BullDog

From my perspective people have been taken to task and it feels extremely frustrating and silencing.

From my perspective, many people have come here (and gone into other discussions) and attempted to engage in challenging conversations that they do not see eye-to-eye on and, quite possibly, will always disagree. Those are hard conversations with opposing viewpoints; they're not "taking people to task". Again, that's my perspective on it.

And, to me, it feels frustrating and silencing when people who do not want to be challenged say that the opposing view being presented is silencing. Personally, and it's not just in this thread, we are watering down the "silencing" thing to where we won't be able to see it or really know what it means when it really *does* happen. And, yes, I do know it happens.

Actually, I think if I come into a discussion and share *my* experience from *my* *me* space and someone comes in and tells me that my post is silencing, then I feel like *they* are trying to silence me.

So again... It's a catch 22.

Bulldog, it's sad to me but it has become very clear to me over the past few months that you and I see these things VERY differently. I don't recall that it was ever that way some years back.

But things to do change. I know that a lot about my life has changed in the past two years, and I also know that my heart, soul, and spirit have not......nor has my mind. Maybe it's the physical changes in me that you have come to object to; I don't know. But I'm still the same person, and I still stand for the same things I always have.

What I have noticed here is that when someone responds to you (or Martina or whomever) with an opposing position, you call foul. *That*, to me, is frustrating. How are we supposed to have a hard conversation about this stuff? I don't feel we can.

So if you feel those types of replies are "silencing" then you should probably report that......all of them.

[BullDog]

Well Thinker, it has felt silencing to me. Perhaps the topic can be discussed in another thread at another time. I did want to note though that absolutely no one here has said transmen experience life in the same exact way as other males.

Edit: I don't like the insinuation about me objecting to your physical changes. I don't object to anyone's physical changes. That is his or her personal decision.

[T D]

I can't say that I've experienced this male privilege yet as people are still waffling between she/he with me. It's so odd, I can go into one store and be called he or sir, then turn right around and go into a different store and be called she or ma'am. Now that I'm letting a little facial hair grow this will most likely change though.

It should be very interesting (to say the least) to experience the world differently from what I've been experiencing it for the past nearly 60 years. Since I feel like the same person I've always felt like I forget (for the most part) that how others experience me may change my privilege and/or position in the world at large. I personally don't think that this is going to be an easy adjustment, and I'm mostly stunned at how so many people think that my decision to start using "T" was easy and is about wanting privilege or something. This whole concept is completely foreign to me.

I really don't believe that anyone ever knows exactly what another person experiences internally. And what I find fascinating as all get out is how people will "speculate" on what something is "about" for others without even checking in with those others.

Just a few of my thoughts at the moment

[Melissa]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I did want to note though that absolutely no one here has said transmen experience life in the same exact way as other males.

.

Actually, Martina somewhat did. She was talking about bio men and trans men experiencing privilege in the same way. This is what started the discussion of privilege and why it is not a black and white issue, and how privilege is also effected by race, class, appearance etc among many other things. Martina states that all men have privilege and therefore must be aware of how they wield that privilege. She goes on to say that even if a man does not feel privileged he is and must be aware of it at all times. She did not differentiate between bio men and trans men.

Here is her quote "It is a sexist world, and men are more paid attention to. They hold more power. An individual man may not feel powerful, but by virtue of being recognized as a man, he can do more harm than he might attend. i expect all men to be aware of this whether they feel the benefits of privilege or not. "

I have noticed a lot of antipathy toward transmen in this thread and on other threads. The privilege issue is brought up a lot. Then the silencing issue. I agree with Thinker that it becomes a Catch 22 and the silencing issue is brought up when a debate begins.

We can't debate and discuss if posters keep pulling out of the thread, get mad, or object by saying he or she feels silenced. For me, it has gotten to the point where I no longer know what it means when someone says they feel silenced. No one is stopping anyone from posting or stating their point of view or describing his or her personal experience. In fact, on this site, posters bend over backward to make sure members feel able to post, debate, and discuss and bring in personal experiences and points of view. But the silencing issue and the privilege issue does begin to feel, more and more to me, as a verbal weapon being wielded against trans posters. It puts them on the defensive.

For me, I learn through debate and discussion and testing my own experiences against those of others. So right now Bulldog, I am debating you, mentioning some things I think and have noticed, and generally putting my two cents worth in. This is not an attempt to shut you up but an attempt to counter, debate, discuss, offer an opinion and I hope you will take it as that.

My post was not written in anger or frustration but a genuine concern for gender, women's, and trans issues and a desire for more understanding about the issue of privilege. I think all these issues are interconnected in all of our lives regardless of how we identify in terms of sex, gender or sexuallity. You should know I am a lesbian and married to a transman. I identify as lesbian first and femme second. Because of my marital status and partner I'm sure there are many people who would deny my claim to being a lesbian.


Melissa