Possible Triggering: Violence against butches.

[Lillie]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I have been assaulted physically and sexually as both a butch lesbian and as a het woman in my lifetime. Certainly have had more assualtive behavior towards me as a butch.

I live in the East Bay Area of CA right near Richmond where a butch woman was kidnapped, beaten raped and left for dead a couple of years ago. The trial is going to start soon. There have been several benefits to raise $ for her and her partner and their kids.

Thanks for starting this thread- I am well aware of the attacks on our trans community, especially transwomen (highest percent), but we don't seem to focus on the unique elements of assualts (homophobia) on both butches and femmes (women, no matter the sexuality are victims of sexual and domestic violence far more than men). And we need to help fight against all forms of violence against our community.

I don't want anyone in queerdom to be subject to violence. Be safe out there!

This is a great thread and bringing to light alot of sadness to some..however I do need to disagree with your one statement about (woman no matter what sexuality are victims of sexual and domestic violence far more than men)..knowing of a few stories over the years, I believe men fall victim just as much if not more at times then woman but it goes unreported due to shame or fear. I have a friend who's husband was raped in a walmart bathroom about a year ago..he did not report it even to her..this rapist then followed him home and about 5 months later when he was alone attacked him again in his own home..driving a screwdriver through his cheek and shoving nails through his testicals and a few other horrifying things. He is and will probably always be traumatized. he is in a support group currently and believe me when I tell you..there are alot of men out there.

Violence against anyone for being human is an astrocity..gay, straight, bi, trans, men, woman or child..

I am sorry for anyone in the community who has had anything violent happen to them. Being femme I have only had to deal with being "the fucking dyke" now an again..

have a great sunday!

[Linus]

Uh.. would anyone have any objections if I added "Possibly Triggering" at the beginning of the topic? Given some of the graphic descriptions that have appeared and that might yet appear, I can imagine that this might be a bit distressing for some.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Linus

Uh.. would anyone have any objections if I added "Possibly Triggering" at the beginning of the topic? Given some of the graphic descriptions that have appeared and that might yet appear, I can imagine that this might be a bit distressing for some.

Linus- I do object. Would you add "Triggering" to threads about violence against transpeople, or femmes? Or, Stone sexuality, BDSM, etc. threads all within their respective Zones? Doing this is distressing to me because the thread is within the Butch Zone.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Linus- I do object. Would you add "Triggering" to threads about violence against transpeople, or femmes? Or, Stone sexuality, BDSM, etc. threads all within their respective Zones? Doing this is distressing to me because the thread is within the Butch Zone.

Actually, if it got as graphic and might potentially cause someone to relive an attack, yes I would. It's not the who but the what. I can remove it but I was trying to be sensitive to those that may end up reliving attacks as a result of reading here and not realizing how graphic the discussion might get.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Linus

Actually, if it got as graphic and might potentially cause someone to relive an attack, yes I would. It's not the who but the what. I can remove it but I was trying to be sensitive to those that may end up reliving attacks as a result of reading here and not realizing how graphic the discussion might get.

OK, this makes sense to me. I am a little sensitive to not being able to have a butch space. Although, I would most certainly call out anyone that made any that made transphobic, sexist, racist, etc. remarks in any zone or thread.

I mis-read your intent-

I was hoping that the thread would be a safe place for butches to talk about our experiences as butches. And I'm sure many transguys that identified as butch prior to transitioning would have a lot to add as well as support- they have lived it too.

[Heart]

I think it's odd that the most graphic description here was given by a femme about a straight man.

First of all, it is simply not true that men are victims of violence "just as much if not more" than women. No one should be subjected to violence, but please take a look at FBI statistics, Dept of Justice statistics, and world-wide statistics such as those distributed by Amnesty International, and you will see that women suffer from violence in staggeringly, unequivocally higher numbers than men. A "few stories" one hears does not translate to men being vulnerable to violence at the same rate as women. Yes, if all men reported violence/abuse their stats would go up. but if all women reported, (which they do not and cannot), their stats would go up as well, and the statistical ratio would not likely change all that much. Men are more likely to be attacked by strangers. Women are more likely to be attacked by intimates, which makes them less likely to report.

Many butches who experience violence are experiencing it as women, (whether they personally id that way or not). They are being targeted for being non-conforming women in the eyes of the attacker. To derail that by talking about violence towards men seems inappropriate to me.

Heart

I'm so very sorry that any of you have had violence visited upon you because of your sexuality.

I count myself even luckier that I haven't had that experience.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Heart

I think it's odd that the most graphic description here was given by a femme about a straight man.

First of all, it is simply not true that men are victims of violence "just as much if not more" than women. No one should be subjected to violence, but please take a look at FBI statistics, Dept of Justice statistics, and world-wide statistics such as those distributed by Amnesty International, and you will see that women suffer from violence in staggeringly, unequivocally higher numbers than men. A "few stories" one hears does not translate to men being vulnerable to violence at the same rate as women. Yes, if all men reported violence/abuse their stats would go up. but if all women reported, (which they do not and cannot), their stats would go up as well, and the statistical ratio would not likely change all that much. Men are more likely to be attacked by strangers. Women are more likely to be attacked by intimates, which makes them less likely to report.

Many butches who experience violence are experiencing it as women, (whether they personally id that way or not). They are being targeted for being non-conforming women in the eyes of the attacker. To derail that by talking about violence towards men seems inappropriate to me.
Heart

Yes we are targeted as non-conforming women/females in the eyes of the attacker. And this is very difficult for a lot of us- especially when we embrace more fluid definitions of gender as well as try to navigate the world as a butch person. This is a unique dynamic that I wouldn't mind hearing about from other butches from a butch perspective. I have not always identified as a butch and value other butches experiences that have dealt with these things for a long time (and prior to tranistioning).

[Rockinonahigh]

I had to look twice at the title of this subject,Merlin tks for starting it.Over the years I have had some things happen that were either stuff I could just blow off to haveing to out right hot quit a job for my own safty,yes I did all I could do to go threw the chain of comamd to see if this could be stoped but it did little good.It was sexual harrasment to the tenth degree,it got to where this bio male person was parking his car next to mine in the employees parking lot and as we got off work at 2:am in the morning I was walking into a near dark area,no security guard,no security cams... nada,needless it had already become a very dangerous situation for me.This happened at a local casino,finaly it all ended up in the HR department but as I had felt I had to walk out of the job for my own safty..I was at fault for quiting..Yes they did a minor investagation into it but I was told no one would back my story even tho it was something every one on my shift and department knew what was going on..better theire jobs be safe that anything pertaining to me.I talked to an attlrney he said I had to have whittnesses that were willing to tell the truth in a court of law.The lawyer in fact told me to suck it up cause I would play hell in proveing it.I wished I had had a way to persue this but its been a long time as this happened on 2005.The rest of the crap ive delt with has been stuff about the bathroom or comments about the butchie boi thinks hes a man thing or just plain beng ask to leave a resturant once cause the group I was with made the customers incomfortable..ect,ect.
One thing that has been on my mind is me flying to little rock for the reunion,will I have any probs to deal with at the airport or the public,beleave me its not stoping me from going.I have a ride if I can swing the time to leave off on hys scedual.

[atomiczombie]

I haven't been physically assaulted, thank heaven. About 6 years ago when I was working at the Harley dealership, I was outside directing the motorcycle traffic into the parking lot during a special event we held. Some teenage boys came down the street in their pick up and yelled "F*ggot!" at me, and I (at the time I ID'd as butch) said its DYKE you idiots!! a bit louder than I probably should have since I was at work, but I was pissed.

Also around that time I was walking from my car up the long driveway to my apartment and some other teenage boys started following me. I could hear them whispering and laughing. I was so close to turning around and asking them what the fuck was so funny, but I was close to home and I didn't want my kid and wife to see me getting my ass kicked. That is the only time I have felt my personal safety was in danger. I just kept walking and went home. One of the boys lived in my complex so they knew where I lived already.

I have gone into a grocery store, only to come out and find that someone had spit all over my windshield. I still get stares all the time, dirty looks, etc. Someone put scrapes all over my HRC sticker on my bumper of my previous car. Guess they couldn't rip it off. I am sure there are other little things like this but this is all that comes to mind right now.

I count myself lucky to have only experienced these small things. I am really sorry to hear that so many of you have had it a lot worse.

[BullDog]

I have never been sexually or physically assaulted. I have been threatened with physical violence. I've had dyke yelled at me many times. I have had males on more than one occasion get up close into my personal space to try to intimidate me. I had a guy once sit next to me on the bus and make fun of my small amount of peach fuzz over my upper lip (don't think it's enough to qualify for mustache, lol). I had two guys come and sit right next to me at a restaurant and start talking homophobic crap (I got up and moved). I have been out with a femme and had men ask why they would be with an ugly woman like me. I once was visiting a femme and her mailbox was vandalized. I have been denied service at barbershops. I've been told I don't belong in the men's department and had store clerks talking to each other wondering why they are always stuck helping the freaks. I've had lots of weird stares and dirty looks and people sometimes seem to avoid sitting next to me.

I feel very fortunate that I have not experienced sexual or physical assault like so many other butches have.

[Hack]

I've never been physically assaulted. I've been verbally assaulted a few times. My favorite being when I was called "he/she/it -- whatever you are" by an irate customer at a video store I used to manage. Once while in Nashville, my girlfriend and I were followed down the street by some drunken men who were saying rather rude things. I turned around once and said something back, which threw them off, I think, because they stopped following us.

When I am in places I am not familiar with, I feel myself being more aware of my surroundings. But I don't live in a paranoid state. I tend to approach people without apology, meaning I don't act timid or apologetic because I am queer. My attitude is pretty much -- this is me, deal with it.

[Rockinonahigh]

I have gotten the wrong bathroom coment lots of times right along with a manager of a wall mart comeing into the bathroom to tell me security was comeing to remove me from there,I showed her my drivers licence wich solved the problem but the situation dose happen again when I go to wall mart and some other places.Often I am very aware of the comments and stares of f-in dyke or dam trannies comments,when I was much younger I was involved in some outright fist fights because of being who I am.Even now in places where I least expect to deal with this it happends,lately its happends at one of the pool halls I go to by another butch on one of the other teams...she gives me the worst dirty looks or makes filipant coments all the time..whene ever my team is in a match with hers she always manages to not play a match with me and has told her team captain she wouldnt so not to play us against each other.I have no clue what her prob is,but its hers not mine.A couple of months ago a gay man was beat up at a pool hall by a straight man with the but end of a pool stick very badly and is now in a nurseing home due to his injuries leaveing him so messed up.
I just keep it in mind cause to get to comfy isnt being careful as much as I would like it to be other wise,I park my car in as safe a place as possable and hopefuly a placed where a security cam is avalable,not that its would do much for protection but as some evedence if I ever needed it..if the cam even works or is used.In this day and age its too bad we have to still deal with such violence against glbt folks,I doubt if it ever will be totaly gone but do have hopes it will become a punishable crime to be taken seriously and steps taken to punish the perps and make it stick insted of brushing it off into some other chatges...hate is hate no matter how u paint it.

[MarineCorps1]

I've never been physically assaulted, but I've come close - At fourteen, I was riding bikes with a friend, and we went past the home of one of our school's football players. He was outside & saw us, and came running across his yard at me & when he got close, he kicked out at my bike, screaming at the top of his lungs, "YOU LOOK LIKE A FUCKING MAN!!!!" (I was wearing ripped up jeans and a T-shirt.) It was broad daylight on the main street of a small town.

At the time, I had no idea of what my identity actually was, and I couldn't understand why it was that I looked like a man when my friend was wearing essentially the same thing, and she didn't. I wasn't offended at being told I looked like a man, I just didn't understand it.

Beyond that, I've gotten the usual - People driving by and yelling at me, stares, etc.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Heart

Many butches who experience violence are experiencing it as women, (whether they personally id that way or not). They are being targeted for being non-conforming women in the eyes of the attacker. To derail that by talking about violence towards men seems inappropriate to me.

I disagree. There are butches out there who have been assaulted not for being a non-conforming woman, but for being a non-conforming or "unidentifiable" person. In that way, many who are identified as "queer" "not straight" or "non-cis" in some way are not necessarily being seen by their assaulter as a woman or even as a man. They are "freaks" which is another aspect of the dehumanization that occurs in violent and sexual assaults against non-conforming people.

Of course, there are also butches who do experience rape as women, and who are raped for being non-conforming women. But plastering that one experience on every butch is an incorrect generalization...and vice versa of course.

The second issue is that if one does not experience themselves as a woman, if one does not identify as a woman, then I believe it's wrong to generalize and say that they experienced the assault as a woman. Thinking back to the assault of Branden Tina as an example, after his death so many tried to write him off as a "lesbian" and even the movie they made about him tries to portray him as a woman following the sexual assault he experienced. I think that it is really important in these conversations to recognise that differences in experience, as far as saying whether someone experiences something as a "man" or as a "woman." I would never say that a transwoman who has been raped experienced her rape as a "man," for example. Saying that butches who don't id as women or female experience assault as a woman also feels like the aggressor who is trying to "correct their orientation/gender" through rape has achieved their goal both in their own eyes and in the eyes of outsiders looking in on the situation...that male id'd butches or trans id'd butches are "guys until they get raped." In such traumatic cases I think we should be more understanding of how each victim perceives their own assault.

Instead of bringing instances of XY men being raped, or non-butch women being raped into this thread, why not just stick to how butches feel about the issue no matter if they id as a woman or not.

[AtLast]

My personal experience with rape, harrassment, and physical assualt has been keely tied to homophobia and sexism as a female/woman as a butch individual.

I sure see how these can be experienced differently depending on gender identifications because it is variable and complex.

Most of the verbal assaults I have experienced have been very homophobic in nature- dyke, queer, bull-dagger, etc. being used in a derogatory and taunting manner. Things like "you want to suck my dick" or "cock" being slung my way. When I was younger, there were more than a few times the old "all you really need is a good fuck" (by a man of course) was hurled my way.

I can't count the times I have been accused of really wanting to be a man due to my butch presentation. Butches are not viewed as legitimate women or men. Which, actually has been something that has given me a better understanding of all forms of violence related to gender across the board. I am woman not recognized as such by heteronormative society and the traditional binary.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Of course, there are also butches who do experience rape as women, and who are raped for being non-conforming women. But plastering that one experience on every butch is an incorrect generalization...and vice versa of course.

WTF?

Dammit Ender I did NOT say every butch, I said many butches. Nor did I speak for anyone, I spoke theoretically about butches who experience assault because the attacker sees them as non-conforming women, which frankly rapists consider the exact same thing as a freak. Do you think Brandon Tina's rapists saw him as a man for one second? This is exactly the nature of homophobic, sexist rapes. The identity of the victim is erased. In fact MEN are raped in order to feminize them, to strip them of manhood. So, don't lecture me about identity in the face of rape Ender. And for you to equate what I said with the perpetrator is beyond comprehension, incredibly offensive, and hurtful. I have zero desire to interact with you again.

[LaneyDoll]

Originally Posted by Heart

I think it's odd that the most graphic description here was given by a femme about a straight man.

Many butches who experience violence are experiencing it as women, (whether they personally id that way or not). They are being targeted for being non-conforming women in the eyes of the attacker.

First, I am a femme so my comments may not be suited for this thread and if you feel that way, then please allow me to apologize.

BUT, I can relate to the first line of this quote. I have had TWO offenses and (at least) THREE near misses and ALL were directed at me by men.

I dated a genderqueer woman in my past and she used to stress to me "people will cause problems for us if we are out, if it becomes physical, you run and get help, I am used to it." It literally broke my heart that someone gets used to being attacked for being who they are. I could not ever decide-do I listen to her-run for help or stay? How on Earth could I leave, knowing she was about to be hurt? How could I stay and not at least try to get help (I am not physically strong enough to fight off more than one person)? And, why were there people in the world, willing to hurt others, simply for who they loved?

[asphaltcowboi]

hmm i have been both verbaly and phisicaly attacked not once not twice but a few times.. ha! an i spent most my life in the bay area calif! never been sexually asulted (unless you count that one femme i knew and i liked it). ok so the most phisical attack was coming out of a gay bar, i was jumped an knifed cut in the lower private areas still have scares. just for walking out of the bar i guess.i dont think it would have mattered if i was butch or gay or any of the ID's i believe it was just haters...another time i went to visit my g/f at work she was a bartenter in a sports bar and ended up being beat by a pool stick and that was because i was butch and dated a beautiful woman.. the guy even said "so you think your good enough to be a man?" wtf he meant by that i douno and im not going back to ask. it wasnt like i was putting my realtionship out for the whole straight crew to dwell on. another time i was ruffed up pretty good by some cops that were just doing there job, i did do wrong but soon as they realized i was female the treatment got alot rougher. there has been several more times but i think the most hurtfull one came from my or what i thought was my own comunity. a soft butch telling me that i was rediclouse looking and why didnt i soften up my looks then telling my g/f why didnt she just date a guy.. i dont know this seemed to hurt more than any phisical abuse i suffered.. im not sure if it was because i new alot would agree or the fact that it felt like it was coming from family.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Lillie

This is a great thread and bringing to light alot of sadness to some..however I do need to disagree with your one statement about (woman no matter what sexuality are victims of sexual and domestic violence far more than men)..knowing of a few stories over the years, I believe men fall victim just as much if not more at times then woman but it goes unreported due to shame or fear. I have a friend who's husband was raped in a walmart bathroom about a year ago..he did not report it even to her..this rapist then followed him home and about 5 months later when he was alone attacked him again in his own home..driving a screwdriver through his cheek and shoving nails through his testicals and a few other horrifying things. He is and will probably always be traumatized. he is in a support group currently and believe me when I tell you..there are alot of men out there.

Violence against anyone for being human is an astrocity..gay, straight, bi, trans, men, woman or child..

I am sorry for anyone in the community who has had anything violent happen to them. Being femme I have only had to deal with being "the fucking dyke" now an again..

have a great sunday!

I do see your point and violence against anyone is not OK. Statistics do overwhelmingly fall on the side of women being victims of violence in the US. Yes, men often do not report- especially if it is domestic violence they are experiencing- which is horrible because this is based upon sexist ideology.

My son was sexually abused at 13 by a woman (age 36)- I know very well and personally men and boys are victims of violence and sex abuse.

The thread is about violence to butches and in the Butch Zone. There are unique circumstances surrounding the types and kinds of violence we are subjected to and it is legitimate to discuss this. Sometimes, we need a space to talk about things that we experience as butches. This does not negate any other experiences of our entire community.

In no way do I think that violence against butches is more important or more horrible than violence against any other group of people. As a practicing psychologist for many years and a professor of psycology, I certainly saw the horror of this kind of victimization to every type and kind of human being. I read the research (still do as a retired person).

Frankly, I take issue with being snarked at in a butch thread within the butch Zone. If I went into a trans or femme thread within those specific forum Zones and made a crack like this, it wouldn't go over well- and it shouldn't. Avery different thing than threads that are in the general forum zone areas.