Pressurised to transition.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

I'm glad that everyone who has posted here agrees that it's a really bad idea to pressure a butch to transition. Some butches have been unlucky enough to encounter others without your level of respect for who they are.

I had a wonderful conversation with Dykumentary at an event we attended over the weekend. I asked her about the short film she made which documents an experience she had with a mental health professional. She reaffirmed to me that the film is autobiographical and a faithful recreation of her experience.

Dykumentary identifies as a butch woman, but the counselor insisted that she must have Gender Identity Disorder because she dresses in men's clothes.

Dykumentary gave me permission to post this here:


"The link to the video about getting pressured to admit being trans is at:
YouTube - ‪My Crazy Boxers‬‏

This so addresses how I feel at times with continued questioning about my gender- my being a masculine woman and one that feels quite comfortable being so. And it deeply saddens (and angers) me as a licensed clinician (retired) that a therapist did this! In fact it is something that ought to be reported to the licensing board as mal-practice.

This is exactly the kind of thing that could push a butch into transitioning when they are not transgendered or intergendered. I have talked with other butches that have experienced this type of "peer" pressure or what it really is- simply more pushing of a person to conform to the binary due to another person not being able to accept any deviation from what is traditionally defined as male or female, masculine or feminine. A "real" woman cannot possible look like me or other female bodied and minded women! And of course, we MUST have some pathological inability not be able to "see" we are not women, but men! We are the ones that have faulty gender self identification, not the other way around!

Until the many "faces" of gender is truly understood by society at large (and even within our corner of queerdom), we are all negatively affected by gender ignorance. Butches, femmes, transpeople, intergendered people, and third gender individuals. And there are even more gender types being researched and theorized about.

I have looked at my own gender identity in many ways since the 1960's when first knowing a trans teen friend. I've looked and questioned and pondered and have always come to the conclusion that I am a woman through and through. But not the kind of woman that is recognized as a woman without doubt or presumption- other people's doubt, not my own.

I heard a very sad srory from a femme I dated a couple of years ago about a butch that transitioned (had top surgery along with taking T for several years) that was going through hell because she (reverted to female pronounds) felt she made a mistake and was caught up in a kind of "fad." At that point, she was going through a lot of pain because the very people that supported (and according to her) and she felt pressured by to transition (they were/had) turned their backs on her as a friend. Now, I never met this person and my info is second hand, so I never had a discussion with her. But this felt really awful to me. I don't know how it all ended up for her. At that time, she was going to stop the T and hopefully have more surgeries to revert back to a female bodied person according to what I was told. Since she lives in SF, it appeared that she was able to find some support with what she wanted to do. I hope so. I doubt that this is common- especially after actually having surgery. But, it does bring to light the subject of this thread and things that are really important to take a look at. And like I said, I cannot possibly have all the facts.

[PumaJ]

I have talked with other butches that have experienced this type of "peer" pressure or what it really is- simply more pushing of a person to conform to the binary due to another person not being able to accept any deviation from what is traditionally defined as male or female, masculine or feminine. A "real" woman cannot possible look like me or other female bodied and minded women! And of course, we MUST have some pathological inability not be able to "see" we are not women, but men! We are the ones that have faulty gender self identification, not the other way around!

AtLastHome, I appreciate the many fine points you've made. Perhaps we are seeing a version of misogyny in action. IDK...

I've had some conversations with a few of the masculine of center (MOC) women I know about the subject of FTM transitions. Most stand very strong in their female masculinity, and whether they ID as Butch, Boi, or Two-Spirit, they each see themselves as being a 3rd gender, alongside dominant culture's tradition of gender binary. That is, being neither female or male, but rather both at once, in female form. In my conversations we've spoken about their individual comfort levels in relation to the various aspects of their female anatomies. None of them are 100% comfortable with all of their parts, but only one has talked about undergoing a FTM transition. Another two have spoken about wanting breast reductions, but not mastectomies. We have talked about the number of younger MOC women making FTM transitions & some of the pressure my friends have perceived that encourages FTM transition. For the most part, except for one long time Butch friend, none of them are very happy with what they see going on. They don't disparage those for whom transition is due to truly feeling as though they are a male trapped in female form. It's just they don't view being a MOC woman as the same thing as being a male trapped in female form.

As a High Femme who is only romantically & sexually attracted to women who are quite MOC, it is my observation & experience that the infusion of strong female masculine energy through the female form is a very powerful combination. Just as it's opposite, the infusion of male femininity through the male form is very powerful. Cultures in other places & times have recognized the power of such combinations, resulting in the acceptance of multigendered societies/cultures. In some, 3rd, 4th, 5th gendered persons have been held in high regard as a result of being multigendered.

As a long time feminist, I am of the view that each individual woman is the only one who gets to determine the way/ways in which she expresses herself as a woman in the world. In that view, I am including all women be they femme, butch, boi, stud, AG, or no particular ID beyond female. I feel frustrated & sometimes angry at those who try to impose their personal understanding or version of being female onto someone else.

If my use of the pronoun she has offended anyone, I apologize. I mean no disrespect, or lack of recognition to those who use alternative pronouns. I suspect I'm being semantically lazy in finding it easier to just use she, today. I do recognize other pronouns & do use them in personal speech when indicated.

[hpychick]

Pressurised? Really? Sorry for the derail.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by hpychick

Pressurised? Really? Sorry for the derail.

I am not sure why you felt the need to post this? This is an interesting and serious thread and if you want to make fun of someone's choice of words maybe you could have done it privately.

[hpychick]

juliesafemme,

I'm not sure why you felt the need to call me out without understanding what I meant. I asked a question.

What I didn't ask for was your snarky comment, which incidentally, you could have done privately, and saved yourself some embarrassment. Oddly, not everyone comes from the same place of negativity as you.

That is all.

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I am not sure why you felt the need to post this? This is an interesting and serious thread and if you want to make fun of someone's choice of words maybe you could have done it privately.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by hpychick

juliesafemme,

I'm not sure why you felt the need to call me out without understanding what I meant. I asked a question.

What I didn't ask for was your snarky comment, which incidentally, you could have done privately, and saved yourself some embarrassment. Oddly, not everyone comes from the same place of negativity as you.

That is all.

Hpychick. I am sorry I misunderstood your comment.

I did not do it privately because I thought what I interpreted as your public snark needed to be addressed publicly. I did not understand your comment to be a serious or genuine question. The little zombie face is what made me think you were poking fun.

I do apologize for upsetting you.

[hpychick]

julieisafemme,

I appreciate how protective you are here in such a personal space. I apologize for being reactionary and defensive, and also for saying that you were coming from a place of negativity.

I am far from perfect, and often misinterpret things for whatever reason. Nonetheless, I was rude to you and that's really not part of my typical character.

Thank you for the apology; I hope that you will also accept mine.

Sunny

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

Hpychick. I am sorry I misunderstood your comment.

I did not do it privately because I thought what I interpreted as your public snark needed to be addressed publicly. I did not understand your comment to be a serious or genuine question. The little zombie face is what made me think you were poking fun.

I do apologize for upsetting you.

[hpychick]

My question was this:

Do you really feel pressurized? Being put in a pressure cooker and cooked until all semblance of the original being has been pressured and steamed out of you? Mine was a shorter version, "Pressurized? Really?"

My derail comment was because it wasn't dealing directly with the posts and was off-the-topic so to speak. I was getting back to the basics. I'll use more words next time so that it's clear on the question I'm posing.

And yes, my comment to julie was personal, and I addressed it to her as such, "julieisafemme."

And yes, I am defensive about it because I thought it was rude and didn't need to be posted there - she displayed the very insensitivity of which she was accusing me.

And, thank you June for moderating.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by hpychick

My question was this:

Do you really feel pressurized? Being put in a pressure cooker and cooked until all semblance of the original being has been pressured and steamed out of you? Mine was a shorter version, "Pressurized? Really?"

I did a google search of " define pressurized" (it can be spelled with either the s or z) and noticed that the informal definition includes "excessive stress" or as, "undue harassment", as listed here: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pressurized

I think that there are instances where butches may be "pressured" to transition or, perhaps even in certain scenarios, feel like they must transition because they do not feel "butch enough". Does it happen to every butch? No but I di believe that some feel that they must in order to "compete".

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by PumaJ

AtLastHome, I appreciate the many fine points you've made. Perhaps we are seeing a version of misogyny in action. IDK...

I've had some conversations with a few of the masculine of center (MOC) women I know about the subject of FTM transitions. Most stand very strong in their female masculinity, and whether they ID as Butch, Boi, or Two-Spirit, they each see themselves as being a 3rd gender, alongside dominant culture's tradition of gender binary. That is, being neither female or male, but rather both at once, in female form. In my conversations we've spoken about their individual comfort levels in relation to the various aspects of their female anatomies. None of them are 100% comfortable with all of their parts, but only one has talked about undergoing a FTM transition. Another two have spoken about wanting breast reductions, but not mastectomies. We have talked about the number of younger MOC women making FTM transitions & some of the pressure my friends have perceived that encourages FTM transition. For the most part, except for one long time Butch friend, none of them are very happy with what they see going on. They don't disparage those for whom transition is due to truly feeling as though they are a male trapped in female form. It's just they don't view being a MOC woman as the same thing as being a male trapped in female form.

As a High Femme who is only romantically & sexually attracted to women who are quite MOC, it is my observation & experience that the infusion of strong female masculine energy through the female form is a very powerful combination. Just as it's opposite, the infusion of male femininity through the male form is very powerful. Cultures in other places & times have recognized the power of such combinations, resulting in the acceptance of multigendered societies/cultures. In some, 3rd, 4th, 5th gendered persons have been held in high regard as a result of being multigendered.

As a long time feminist, I am of the view that each individual woman is the only one who gets to determine the way/ways in which she expresses herself as a woman in the world. In that view, I am including all women be they femme, butch, boi, stud, AG, or no particular ID beyond female. I feel frustrated & sometimes angry at those who try to impose their personal understanding or version of being female onto someone else.

If my use of the pronoun she has offended anyone, I apologize. I mean no disrespect, or lack of recognition to those who use alternative pronouns. I suspect I'm being semantically lazy in finding it easier to just use she, today. I do recognize other pronouns & do use them in personal speech when indicated.

I appreciate this post very much- it gets to some things that I may "feel" but don't always know exactly how to express.

Absolutely 3rd gender theory and interpretation fits in with some of what I want to express. Two-Spirit philosophy and the core of the spiritual within gender identity (the Egyptian "Gender tree" falls into the equation here for me also) is something that touches me personally (just me, can't put this on others). I feel like gender theory advances (and will continue to give) some internal peace in many ways even as a FIB or MOC. This is a good thing! Also, it has certainly helped many of my trans and intergendered friends and a family member some peace and hopefully, tranquility and a space for joy in this life.

Yes, "a version of misogyny in action" comes to mind for me during these discussions- and not just as it relates to women- to men as well. It just has always seemed to me that misogyny is a lose-lose-lose construct.

One of the positive aspects of how gender theory is evolving is that finally, it encompasses gender outside of traditional (and stereotypic) notions of male-female, masculine-feminine- going to 3rd gender, two spirit, etc. and creates a space for women like me! My personal gender identification is as a woman and female with masculine physical traits that are adjunctive (without any values attached to this at all) in many ways.

What is rather interesting, however, is that a model going back to Kinsey in 1948 still describes more accurately than any other myself as a gender-blended female person that is individually-based. (http://www.iiav.nl/ezines/web/IJT/97...jtc0102.htm#An individually-based gender continuum). Although, there are many newer hypotheses, some delving into we non-trans folks that could bring further peace and tranquility. Well, except for the outside world we have to deal with!

[Legendryder]

I have never been pressured to transition or been given any flack for not being butch enough. I really feel sorry for those who have. I do not know if I consider myself lucky or just have not been paying attention. Either way, I feel it is wrong to question how someone feels in their own skin. We all go through changes in our lives, we grow, develop and in some cases regress. At least for me, I feel different now than I did when I was twenty, or thirty or even forty. Through it all, I have felt one thing: Butch. That has always been an constant.