Here come the lesbians, here come the leaping lesbians...

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Heart

It's interesting that they have replaced "butch," a historically lesbian/female identity, with the word "masculine." I suppose they think it's more "inclusive." I see this over and over. Being inclusive results in deleting references to women/female.
Heart

I agree. I find it interesting that, even on this site, people who know us and like us and communicate with us regularly will still use he or hy when referring to Scoote sometimes or call her "brother." They aren't trying to be mean or rude or anything....it's almost like the "politically correct" or "when in doubt" default is to go to the masculine pronouns for butch women.

Not trying to open that can of worms....but it's odd to me every time I hear it. Scoote is butch, and she's a she or a her....not a he or a hy. She's not masculine....she's butch...and it's not necessarily the same thing.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by JustJo

I agree. I find it interesting that, even on this site, people who know us and like us and communicate with us regularly will still use he or hy when referring to Scoote sometimes or call her "brother." They aren't trying to be mean or rude or anything....it's almost like the "politically correct" or "when in doubt" default is to go to the masculine pronouns for butch women.

Not trying to open that can of worms....but it's odd to me every time I hear it. Scoote is butch, and she's a she or a her....not a he or a hy. She's not masculine....she's butch...and it's not necessarily the same thing.

Ah, go ahead. Open a can of worms. They're just worms.

[dykeumentary]

Originally Posted by JustJo

I agree. I find it interesting that, even on this site, people who know us and like us and communicate with us regularly will still use he or hy when referring to Scoote sometimes or call her "brother." They aren't trying to be mean or rude or anything....it's almost like the "politically correct" or "when in doubt" default is to go to the masculine pronouns for butch women.

Not trying to open that can of worms....but it's odd to me every time I hear it. Scoote is butch, and she's a she or a her....not a he or a hy. She's not masculine....she's butch...and it's not necessarily the same thing.

Hey, I really should create some recipes for worms, I've opened so many cans of them on exactly this topic.
Nah, worms belong in gardens, not on websites, although this may be news to reactionary "queer-er than thou" types. Let's keep talking about this.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by dykeumentary

Hey, I really should create some recipes for worms, I've opened so many cans of them on exactly this topic.
Nah, worms belong in gardens, not on websites, although this may be news to reactionary "queer-er than thou" types. Let's keep talking about this.

I really like your use of the term reactionary in this context. It's absolutely spot on.

REACTIONARY: relating to, or characterized by reaction, especially against radical political or social change; conservative.

I've always been keenly aware of the conservative, reactionary undercurrent of "queer-er than thou" theory. It's a difficult thing to discuss because many people aren't historically/politically astute or they do not have an accurate understanding of Feminism. So, I just say my piece and leave the arguing to them that enjoys it.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by JustJo

I agree. I find it interesting that, even on this site, people who know us and like us and communicate with us regularly will still use he or hy when referring to Scoote sometimes or call her "brother." They aren't trying to be mean or rude or anything....it's almost like the "politically correct" or "when in doubt" default is to go to the masculine pronouns for butch women.

Not trying to open that can of worms....but it's odd to me every time I hear it. Scoote is butch, and she's a she or a her....not a he or a hy. She's not masculine....she's butch...and it's not necessarily the same thing.

I so agree. I have gotten in SO many arguments over this very thing. Butch Women rock and are not men.

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

Oh, no! Please don't retreat to the cave now. I think the pendulum is just starting to swing back.

I was shocked and disgusted by some recent comments made by friends who used to live in San Francisco. Apparently, there's something wrong with calling yourself a lesbian there. They were quite certain that they would be mocked and ostracized out of their b-f and/or leather community circles for doing so.

I don't want to brag, but I'm considered kinda bad-ass. I'm a Founding Member of the Sirens, which is the NYC women's motorcycle club that has led the Pride Parade down 5th Ave for 25 yrs., and a longtime member and activist with LSM. (the Lesbian Sex Mafia is now the oldest extant women's BDSM org in the U.S.) I even won a Pantheon of Leather award a few yrs ago. I make a living as an artist in NYC, and I never back down from a fight. Even though the reality of my life is very messy and not particularly 'cool', the externals sure look both cool and bad-ass. From that position I emphatically and relentlessly ID myself as a lesbian, ESPECIALLY when speaking to some kid who thinks that sounds as old fashioned as an African American calling themselves 'coloured'. Then I look at that kid with a VERY bad-ass challenge in my eyes and ask, "Do you have a problem with lesbians?" Not one of them has had the ovaries, or the stupidity, to continue the discussion.

Of course I'm in a far different position than a butch woman would be, but my prickly activism on this subject (hopefully) helps give butches some breathing room to claim a masculine FEMALE ID.

I haven't visited the dash site in more than two years because the overwhelming culture there forced reflexive use of male pronouns on butches, and even calling oneself a woman on that site seemed to be shocking. I'm thrilled that there's been push-back against the de-womanizing of butch identity. Please don't leave now. The party is just getting started.

I hated that about the - site...and about how it was pushed when I first found Butch/femme community. I am glad to see this brought front and center. Maybe, just maybe the powers that be will listen now.

Originally Posted by Chazz

My entire butch life, I've battled against the Freudian proposition that a butch is a "misbegotten man".

Outside of gender preoccupied enclaves, the overwhelming majority of the straight world still believes that butches are wanna-be-men. In my RT lesbian community, this is most definitely not the case. We eschew terminology/neologisms that reinforce dominant culture stereotypes that have RT consequences for us as butch women.

If you take the female out of female masculinity, what does that leave us with? How does that serve those of us who have fought a lifetime for respect as butch women?

Labeling butches "masculine of center people" (MOC people), wrings womanhood out of the term butch. Sexual orientation is no longer a defining feature of butch - it's been replaced by masculine gender identity.

I'm glad this schism within BUTCH VOICES has happened. It's shone a light on a dimly lit area that needed full exposure to the light of day. This need not be divisive. What's to argue really?

Why does everyone have to be stuffed, some screaming and kicking, under the same big tent?

I'm content with my lesbian butch, feminist tent. I'm content with others having their gender theory tent. Hell, I'm even content with a Christian lesbian tent for people who sometimes vote Republican. I just don't want to have to room with them. I'll meet everyone around the camp fire, if I'm of a mind to do so.

We are not all the same. We don't all identify the same. We don't all think or believe the same.

THIS IS A VERY GOOD THING ! ! ! !

Let's celebrate diversity - we use to do that and it was great fun.

Diversity makes us strong. We do not have to all be alike.

It does make me sad that somethin that looked like such a wonderful thing for the Butch community is broken, but I agree that this needed to happen.

[The cute widdle wesbian]

I don't think I could possibly be more lesbian, and I don't resemble a man in any way, shape, or form. Now, I liked reading the post before this one, I'm a butch but only in how I interact with other people and in a relationship. I wish people would get the image out of their head of a woman with a buzz cut and a muscle shirt, baggy jeans, steel-toed boots and a deep, manly voice when they hear the word "Butch". That's exactly what everybody used to picture when hearing the word "Lesbian" back in the day, and I wish that that would go away altogether. Seriously, it took me forever to realize that I was butch and start calling myself that because I'm not a manly looking woman. I'm short and thin and shaped like a woman with an hour glass figure, I wear casual clothes that aren't manly or womanly, I talk with a more high-pitch feminine voice, and yet I know with all my heart and soul that I'm butch because of who I am on the inside. That's all what it boils down to, how you act, how you feel, what you identify with based only on who you are inside. It sounds terribly cheesy but there's no other way to look at it. lol

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by The cute widdle wesbian

I don't think I could possibly be more lesbian, and I don't resemble a man in any way, shape, or form. Now, I liked reading the post before this one, I'm a butch but only in how I interact with other people and in a relationship. I wish people would get the image out of their head of a woman with a buzz cut and a muscle shirt, baggy jeans, steel-toed boots and a deep, manly voice when they hear the word "Butch". That's exactly what everybody used to picture when hearing the word "Lesbian" back in the day, and I wish that that would go away altogether. Seriously, it took me forever to realize that I was butch and start calling myself that because I'm not a manly looking woman. I'm short and thin and shaped like a woman with an hour glass figure, I wear casual clothes that aren't manly or womanly, I talk with a more high-pitch feminine voice, and yet I know with all my heart and soul that I'm butch because of who I am on the inside. That's all what it boils down to, how you act, how you feel, what you identify with based only on who you are inside. It sounds terribly cheesy but there's no other way to look at it. lol

I think I understand your point, which is that butch women can come in many forms, but I hope you aren't saying that there's something wrong or un-lesbian about a woman who does have a "buzz cut and a muscle shirt, baggy jeans, steel-toed boots and a deep, manly voice". Fortunately for those of us who adore them, there are lesbians who fit that description, too. Frankly, I wish there were more of them.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

I think I understand your point, which is that butch women can come in many forms, but I hope you aren't saying that there's something wrong or un-lesbian about a woman who does have a "buzz cut and a muscle shirt, baggy jeans, steel-toed boots and a deep, manly voice". Fortunately for those of us who adore them, there are lesbians who fit that description, too. Frankly, I wish there were more of them.

Oh, we're still around. We're just busy trying to figure out where the center of "masculine of center" is on the butch continuum.

BLEEECK, I hate continua. I never could color inside the lines or walk a straight line.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by The cute widdle wesbian

I don't think I could possibly be more lesbian, and I don't resemble a man in any way, shape, or form. Now, I liked reading the post before this one, I'm a butch but only in how I interact with other people and in a relationship. I wish people would get the image out of their head of a woman with a buzz cut and a muscle shirt, baggy jeans, steel-toed boots and a deep, manly voice when they hear the word "Butch". That's exactly what everybody used to picture when hearing the word "Lesbian" back in the day, and I wish that that would go away altogether. Seriously, it took me forever to realize that I was butch and start calling myself that because I'm not a manly looking woman. I'm short and thin and shaped like a woman with an hour glass figure, I wear casual clothes that aren't manly or womanly, I talk with a more high-pitch feminine voice, and yet I know with all my heart and soul that I'm butch because of who I am on the inside. That's all what it boils down to, how you act, how you feel, what you identify with based only on who you are inside. It sounds terribly cheesy but there's no other way to look at it. lol

I'm not picking up on cheese, but I am smelling baloney.

[BullDog]

I didn't understand from the very beginning why Butch Voices has always over complicated things. I do think they were honestly striving for inclusiveness and diversity, but were always trying to define things and were constantly trying to add trans language onto butch and come up with long laundry lists of what butch is.

To me the issue is utterly simple. Anyone who considers themselves Butch is. Everyone else at the conference is an Ally. If they want to have a conference for butch, transgender and transmen all together that's a different conference and organization. Let the butch conferences be about the exploration and celebration of all things Butch instead of trying to pre-define it ahead of time.

It would also be nice if the people on the committee did actually identify as butch. I used to constantly get lectured by a committee member who was at least 20-25 years younger than me and that didn't identify as either butch or trans about what butch is.

[Deborah]

Originally Posted by Chazz

I'm not picking up on cheese, but I am smelling baloney.

You know I dont understand this whole discussion and have no intent in debating any of this...(never understood why people couldnt just be who they believe themselves to be without someone else judging if that is correct or not based on their definition) but thats not why I am here....if I am wrong please excuse me but did you just tell 'cutewiddlewesbian' that what she feels about herself is 'baloney'.....where I come from that is just wrong....and it bothers me that people just went on debating their position and didnt even notice....I am sitting here shaking my head at how folks get all caught up in themselves...