Here come the lesbians, here come the leaping lesbians...

[dykeumentary]

Originally Posted by JustJo

I agree. I find it interesting that, even on this site, people who know us and like us and communicate with us regularly will still use he or hy when referring to Scoote sometimes or call her "brother." They aren't trying to be mean or rude or anything....it's almost like the "politically correct" or "when in doubt" default is to go to the masculine pronouns for butch women.

Not trying to open that can of worms....but it's odd to me every time I hear it. Scoote is butch, and she's a she or a her....not a he or a hy. She's not masculine....she's butch...and it's not necessarily the same thing.

Hey, I really should create some recipes for worms, I've opened so many cans of them on exactly this topic.
Nah, worms belong in gardens, not on websites, although this may be news to reactionary "queer-er than thou" types. Let's keep talking about this.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by dykeumentary

Hey, I really should create some recipes for worms, I've opened so many cans of them on exactly this topic.
Nah, worms belong in gardens, not on websites, although this may be news to reactionary "queer-er than thou" types. Let's keep talking about this.

I really like your use of the term reactionary in this context. It's absolutely spot on.

REACTIONARY: relating to, or characterized by reaction, especially against radical political or social change; conservative.

I've always been keenly aware of the conservative, reactionary undercurrent of "queer-er than thou" theory. It's a difficult thing to discuss because many people aren't historically/politically astute or they do not have an accurate understanding of Feminism. So, I just say my piece and leave the arguing to them that enjoys it.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by JustJo

I agree. I find it interesting that, even on this site, people who know us and like us and communicate with us regularly will still use he or hy when referring to Scoote sometimes or call her "brother." They aren't trying to be mean or rude or anything....it's almost like the "politically correct" or "when in doubt" default is to go to the masculine pronouns for butch women.

Not trying to open that can of worms....but it's odd to me every time I hear it. Scoote is butch, and she's a she or a her....not a he or a hy. She's not masculine....she's butch...and it's not necessarily the same thing.

I so agree. I have gotten in SO many arguments over this very thing. Butch Women rock and are not men.

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

Oh, no! Please don't retreat to the cave now. I think the pendulum is just starting to swing back.

I was shocked and disgusted by some recent comments made by friends who used to live in San Francisco. Apparently, there's something wrong with calling yourself a lesbian there. They were quite certain that they would be mocked and ostracized out of their b-f and/or leather community circles for doing so.

I don't want to brag, but I'm considered kinda bad-ass. I'm a Founding Member of the Sirens, which is the NYC women's motorcycle club that has led the Pride Parade down 5th Ave for 25 yrs., and a longtime member and activist with LSM. (the Lesbian Sex Mafia is now the oldest extant women's BDSM org in the U.S.) I even won a Pantheon of Leather award a few yrs ago. I make a living as an artist in NYC, and I never back down from a fight. Even though the reality of my life is very messy and not particularly 'cool', the externals sure look both cool and bad-ass. From that position I emphatically and relentlessly ID myself as a lesbian, ESPECIALLY when speaking to some kid who thinks that sounds as old fashioned as an African American calling themselves 'coloured'. Then I look at that kid with a VERY bad-ass challenge in my eyes and ask, "Do you have a problem with lesbians?" Not one of them has had the ovaries, or the stupidity, to continue the discussion.

Of course I'm in a far different position than a butch woman would be, but my prickly activism on this subject (hopefully) helps give butches some breathing room to claim a masculine FEMALE ID.

I haven't visited the dash site in more than two years because the overwhelming culture there forced reflexive use of male pronouns on butches, and even calling oneself a woman on that site seemed to be shocking. I'm thrilled that there's been push-back against the de-womanizing of butch identity. Please don't leave now. The party is just getting started.

I hated that about the - site...and about how it was pushed when I first found Butch/femme community. I am glad to see this brought front and center. Maybe, just maybe the powers that be will listen now.

Originally Posted by Chazz

My entire butch life, I've battled against the Freudian proposition that a butch is a "misbegotten man".

Outside of gender preoccupied enclaves, the overwhelming majority of the straight world still believes that butches are wanna-be-men. In my RT lesbian community, this is most definitely not the case. We eschew terminology/neologisms that reinforce dominant culture stereotypes that have RT consequences for us as butch women.

If you take the female out of female masculinity, what does that leave us with? How does that serve those of us who have fought a lifetime for respect as butch women?

Labeling butches "masculine of center people" (MOC people), wrings womanhood out of the term butch. Sexual orientation is no longer a defining feature of butch - it's been replaced by masculine gender identity.

I'm glad this schism within BUTCH VOICES has happened. It's shone a light on a dimly lit area that needed full exposure to the light of day. This need not be divisive. What's to argue really?

Why does everyone have to be stuffed, some screaming and kicking, under the same big tent?

I'm content with my lesbian butch, feminist tent. I'm content with others having their gender theory tent. Hell, I'm even content with a Christian lesbian tent for people who sometimes vote Republican. I just don't want to have to room with them. I'll meet everyone around the camp fire, if I'm of a mind to do so.

We are not all the same. We don't all identify the same. We don't all think or believe the same.

THIS IS A VERY GOOD THING ! ! ! !

Let's celebrate diversity - we use to do that and it was great fun.

Diversity makes us strong. We do not have to all be alike.

It does make me sad that somethin that looked like such a wonderful thing for the Butch community is broken, but I agree that this needed to happen.

[The cute widdle wesbian]

I don't think I could possibly be more lesbian, and I don't resemble a man in any way, shape, or form. Now, I liked reading the post before this one, I'm a butch but only in how I interact with other people and in a relationship. I wish people would get the image out of their head of a woman with a buzz cut and a muscle shirt, baggy jeans, steel-toed boots and a deep, manly voice when they hear the word "Butch". That's exactly what everybody used to picture when hearing the word "Lesbian" back in the day, and I wish that that would go away altogether. Seriously, it took me forever to realize that I was butch and start calling myself that because I'm not a manly looking woman. I'm short and thin and shaped like a woman with an hour glass figure, I wear casual clothes that aren't manly or womanly, I talk with a more high-pitch feminine voice, and yet I know with all my heart and soul that I'm butch because of who I am on the inside. That's all what it boils down to, how you act, how you feel, what you identify with based only on who you are inside. It sounds terribly cheesy but there's no other way to look at it. lol

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by The cute widdle wesbian

I don't think I could possibly be more lesbian, and I don't resemble a man in any way, shape, or form. Now, I liked reading the post before this one, I'm a butch but only in how I interact with other people and in a relationship. I wish people would get the image out of their head of a woman with a buzz cut and a muscle shirt, baggy jeans, steel-toed boots and a deep, manly voice when they hear the word "Butch". That's exactly what everybody used to picture when hearing the word "Lesbian" back in the day, and I wish that that would go away altogether. Seriously, it took me forever to realize that I was butch and start calling myself that because I'm not a manly looking woman. I'm short and thin and shaped like a woman with an hour glass figure, I wear casual clothes that aren't manly or womanly, I talk with a more high-pitch feminine voice, and yet I know with all my heart and soul that I'm butch because of who I am on the inside. That's all what it boils down to, how you act, how you feel, what you identify with based only on who you are inside. It sounds terribly cheesy but there's no other way to look at it. lol

I think I understand your point, which is that butch women can come in many forms, but I hope you aren't saying that there's something wrong or un-lesbian about a woman who does have a "buzz cut and a muscle shirt, baggy jeans, steel-toed boots and a deep, manly voice". Fortunately for those of us who adore them, there are lesbians who fit that description, too. Frankly, I wish there were more of them.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

I think I understand your point, which is that butch women can come in many forms, but I hope you aren't saying that there's something wrong or un-lesbian about a woman who does have a "buzz cut and a muscle shirt, baggy jeans, steel-toed boots and a deep, manly voice". Fortunately for those of us who adore them, there are lesbians who fit that description, too. Frankly, I wish there were more of them.

Oh, we're still around. We're just busy trying to figure out where the center of "masculine of center" is on the butch continuum.

BLEEECK, I hate continua. I never could color inside the lines or walk a straight line.

[The cute widdle wesbian]

haha yeah. Two of my best friends in the world call themselves "bulldagger dykes" I believe, they're exactly what I described: buzz cuts and baggy clothes and deep voices, etc, and they're probably the best friends I've ever had, and they're butch like moi. When I was young I thought I was transgendered and wanted to be a boy simply because I wanted to be with women, and I'd never been taught about lesbians so I thought that men were the only ones who could love women. I always get a flashback of myself with a buzz cut and baggy clothes and a deep voice, which was the most unhappy time of my life, when I hear "butch". That's all I meant. I wish that the word "butch" could be more versital rather then defining a certain manly type of woman. I am butch, and I look like a sporty type femme lol, just one of my little annoyances.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by Chazz

<snip>We're just busy trying to figure out where the center of "masculine of center" is on the butch continuum.

I think they moved it to Wyoming.

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by Chazz

Oh, we're still around. We're just busy trying to figure out where the center of "masculine of center" is on the butch continuum.

BLEEECK, I hate continua. I never could color inside the lines or walk a straight line.

Perhaps you walk not-straight because of those "manly" steel toed boots?

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by The cute widdle wesbian

I don't think I could possibly be more lesbian, and I don't resemble a man in any way, shape, or form. Now, I liked reading the post before this one, I'm a butch but only in how I interact with other people and in a relationship. I wish people would get the image out of their head of a woman with a buzz cut and a muscle shirt, baggy jeans, steel-toed boots and a deep, manly voice when they hear the word "Butch". That's exactly what everybody used to picture when hearing the word "Lesbian" back in the day, and I wish that that would go away altogether. Seriously, it took me forever to realize that I was butch and start calling myself that because I'm not a manly looking woman. I'm short and thin and shaped like a woman with an hour glass figure, I wear casual clothes that aren't manly or womanly, I talk with a more high-pitch feminine voice, and yet I know with all my heart and soul that I'm butch because of who I am on the inside. That's all what it boils down to, how you act, how you feel, what you identify with based only on who you are inside. It sounds terribly cheesy but there's no other way to look at it. lol

I'm not picking up on cheese, but I am smelling baloney.

[BullDog]

I didn't understand from the very beginning why Butch Voices has always over complicated things. I do think they were honestly striving for inclusiveness and diversity, but were always trying to define things and were constantly trying to add trans language onto butch and come up with long laundry lists of what butch is.

To me the issue is utterly simple. Anyone who considers themselves Butch is. Everyone else at the conference is an Ally. If they want to have a conference for butch, transgender and transmen all together that's a different conference and organization. Let the butch conferences be about the exploration and celebration of all things Butch instead of trying to pre-define it ahead of time.

It would also be nice if the people on the committee did actually identify as butch. I used to constantly get lectured by a committee member who was at least 20-25 years younger than me and that didn't identify as either butch or trans about what butch is.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I didn't understand from the very beginning why Butch Voices has always over complicated things. I do think they were honestly striving for inclusiveness and diversity, but were always trying to define things and were constantly trying to add trans language onto butch and come up with long laundry lists of what butch is.

To me the issue is utterly simple. Anyone who considers themselves Butch is. Everyone else at the conference is an Ally. If they want to have a conference for butch, transgender and transmen all together that's a different conference and organization. Let the butch conferences be about the exploration and celebration of all things Butch instead of trying to pre-define it ahead of time.

It would also be nice if the people on the committee did actually identify as butch. I used to constantly get lectured by a committee member who was at least 20-25 years younger than me and that didn't identify as either butch or trans about what butch is.

Unfortunately, here lies the very crux of the issue. What does " B/butch" mean anymore? Who gets to claim it? Who gets to define it? Who gets to pick and choose what reflection of "masculine" thought patterns/ attire/ attitudes are the funhouse mirror that makes up "B/butch?" ( Note: I do not view B/butch as a sideshow, moreover I do believe that some variance of masculinity is involved in defining "B/butch")

I am asking these questions more of myself than anyone else, so please don't think I am asking you ( Bulldog) or any other "you" to specifically answer them. I ask because I see transmen and transgendered folks referring to them selves as Butch or butch, as well ( over the years I have become confused in the mire as to adjective or noun, even, as folks also switch that aspect of grammar around also).

My earliest knowledge of the word "butch" was when I was in the second grade and my babysitters niece ( about 12 years my senior then) called me her little butch. I later was told it meant women who portrayed masculine behaviors or appearances. OK. I got that. It was me.

I hit my teen years/ and then early 20's in the late 70's early 80's and butch-femme was rather passe in the bar/ club scene. Everything was andro. Even then, as andro as I tried to be to blend, I was still a smidge "left of andro", heh. Maybe we need to realign ourselves and our gender speak with the center rather than the ends. Start everything at andro/ ambi then work our way out to our chosen/ self- realized genders, rather than starting with feminine or masculine and working back to center.

I have always had a very clear "masculine" expression, however, I have also always had "enough" feminine expression to be clear that I am a woman. I do not know when, in our community, it became bad or wrong to be that miraculous blend of both energies. I don't know when "andro" and "tweeners" or even "lesbian" got such a bad rap. I only found it when I started coming to butch-femme sites. I have journeyed full circle in the past ten or so years in trying to define for myself exactly where I am in the schematics of the "butch-femme" continuum, and what I have learned first and foremost, is that the more I try to "define" it, the less of a graceful beautiful dance it becomes.

I learned about FTM's and taught myself to use " Syr" in on line speak to note that I was butch but not FTM, as I didn't want to offend any of the very proud FTM friends I had met. I adapted hy/ he/ hym/ him, because ... well, it was easier at the time. Having questioned myself as being trans ( either gendered or sexed) it never really bothered me. Having sir or ma'am being interchanged toward me from people in RT, it just seemed to make sense.

The longer I have been around ( these sites and well, hell, life in general) the less it matters and the more important it becomes. I have tried to have these types of discussions before coming from the place of not understanding why the "majority" should always rule. The majority wants everyone to be included, to the point of often losing the essence of what was unique in and of itself. I do not think that everyone ALWAYS fits under one umbrella. Yes, there may be times and they may be the majority of the time, that we ALL get together on certain issues or events. There should also be respect for those issues and events that are for a unique group to honor their unique qualities among themselves.

I have a lot of thoughts on the notion of the loss of womens space. I have a lot of thoughts on the idea that male privilege comes from the hands, teaching, nurturing of women themselves. I can look to my mother ( and MANY like her) to see exactly how to raise/ feed and nurture male privilege. I digress.

Butch Voices or Masculine of Center Voices is going through the same sort of issues MWMF has gone through every year since 1976. "Who are we and who are we here for?" At some point, someone decides, or a collective decides and then they stick to it or not. I tend to look at things pretty simply. There is a need for A. If there becomes a need for B and it doesn't conflict with A, then mayhaps they be added to A. If adding B conflicts with A, then maybe B needs to start a group/event/ whatever to suit their needs. Chances are, they will both have groups until someone else comes along and says maybe we need an additional one so that A AND B can be together during this one and we'll call it C. This is how things eventually evolve. Unfortunately, it is never without growing pains.

Very happy to see this subject being discussed frankly. Thank you all.

[Deborah]

Originally Posted by Chazz

I'm not picking up on cheese, but I am smelling baloney.

You know I dont understand this whole discussion and have no intent in debating any of this...(never understood why people couldnt just be who they believe themselves to be without someone else judging if that is correct or not based on their definition) but thats not why I am here....if I am wrong please excuse me but did you just tell 'cutewiddlewesbian' that what she feels about herself is 'baloney'.....where I come from that is just wrong....and it bothers me that people just went on debating their position and didnt even notice....I am sitting here shaking my head at how folks get all caught up in themselves...

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Deborah

You know I dont understand this whole discussion and have no intent in debating any of this...(never understood why people couldnt just be who they believe themselves to be without someone else judging if that is correct or not based on their definition) but thats not why I am here....if I am wrong please excuse me but did you just tell 'cutewiddlewesbian' that what she feels about herself is 'baloney'.....where I come from that is just wrong....and it bothers me that people just went on debating their position and didnt even notice....I am sitting here shaking my head at how folks get all caught up in themselves...

I thought they knew each other and were interacting.

I totally got what cwl was saying and agreed, I tought we all did.

Is she upset?