Believing where we cannot prove

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Boots13

Yes and No ! LOL.
I appreciate, greatly, the terms and examples you used in your reply. Easy to read, easy to understand. I wanted to quote and respond to your whole reply but fear that I would end with a multi page jumble of idiotic questions and statements! I'm interested, but not well versed.

When responding in my first post, I haphazardly introduced why I hang onto beliefs for which there is no evidence. And that basically is : what is an unsupported (evidenciary) belief today, may become a supported rule tomorrow and ultimately a basis for learning and believing yet additional unsupported ideas in the future.

I know, a big grey zone. It still doesn't answer why I believe in the hand of something greater than I.

I agree with you in that questioning absolutes is good..even though they appear irrefutable. Newtonian Physics = absolutes. I believe in them, the evidence shows why the apple falls (or in your example, doesn't) or why the car skids. But do we stop there? What if science believes there is more, yet there is no proof?

So this is another example of hanging on to 'beliefs for which there is no evidence':
Quantum Physics-Dimension. It started with three, now arguably four. Even more astounding mathematics project six postulate it could be infinite?!
While there is no hard evidence, I believe !


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It's interesting that you should bring up extra-dimensions because string theory is a near-perfect case-study in how the scientific process works out. Everyone I know who has read up on string theory finds it beautiful and WANTS the Universe to work that way. However, it's becoming increasingly clear that string theory is *deeply*, perhaps *fatally*, flawed as a theory. Part of that vulnerability is the requirement of up to 9 extra-dimensions to make it work (in any of its millions of possible permutations).

To understand why, I first need to explain a bit about the four dimensions that we KNOW exist. Let's say we're going to meet up in downtown Portland. You need to know where I'm going to be and when I'm going to be there. Those coordinates are: Let's meet on the Second floor of Powell's books at the corner of Broadway and 10th at 4:00 PM. Those are the four dimensions. The X coordinate is Broadway, the Y coordinate is 10th, the Second floor is the Z coordinate. These are the three-dimensions that people are all familiar with. 4:00 PM is the fourth dimension which is Time.
If you have the XYZ and T coordinates then you and I can agree where and when an event (our meeting) will take place. What's more ANYONE given those coordinates can know where the event will take place (thus making it invariant).

String theory, in order to work, requires that there be between 6 and 9 extra-dimensions that are all curled up into incredibly small, very complex shapes using what's called Calabai-Yau topologies OR they are extremely large dimensions called 'branes' (for membranes). The problem with this is that, depending upon who you ask, those dimensions are either completely undetectable (although you can demonstrate how they would work mathematically) or they require such huge amounts of energy to penetrate that it will be a VERY long time before we are ever able to build a device that will penetrate them. (To give you a sense of scale, the LHC in Europe is a collider with a 17 mile circumference. A collider that could potentially probe these curled up dimensions would need to be the circumference of the solar system! Taking the Oort Cloud as the absolute outer edge of the solar system at 18 *trillion* miles (the radius) the circumference of the solar system is approximately 113 *trillion* miles! Needless to say we would have to be a much more sophisticated space-faring civilization in order to build such a device.)

Herein, then, lies the problem with string theory. If it can't be falsified then it isn't science. It may be mathematically elegant but it isn't *science*.

From my way of thinking any statement about the world in the form of "X exists" or "X works this way" should have implications. For example, the statement Barack Obama is the 44 President of the United States has the implication that he was NOT the 43rd President and that George Bush is NOT the current President of the United States. If it could be shown that George Bush IS still President then that would, by definition, mean that Barack Obama is not the President. I think that almost any statement we make about the world that involves the collective reality we all share should have implications. A world where there is a secret Illuminati controlling everything should look *different* than one where there isn't one. If there's no way to determine either way then we should always default to the least convoluted explanation, following Occam's Razor.



Cheers
Aj