2012 - What does it mean to you?

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by WILDCAT

BUT, the exact moment of that "impact" back that year, and none of us realized it, until we spoke of it later, all at different or varying increments in [later] time: That I, at that time... who did not take afternoon naps, nor did my friends... all at (let's say) the impact what around 3:30PM or so - and whatever precise moment it was) were like friggin' robbots and got overwhelmingly exhausted and had to go and lie down. All of us had forgotten about the comet coming and whatever collision expectations that day - we didn't think too much of it. Little by little we just all discussed this, one would and then another said they had a similar reaction and went to bed, etc...

I'm curious about this. How long did this exhaustion last? I ask because there wasn't ONE impact, there were twenty-one impacts! Over an extended period of time. The largest one happened about 7:30 in the morning GMT two days after the 'event' began.

[/quote]

Let me ask you AJ, when it's said that a beam of light goes to infinity, do you believe that? I kinda "don't", as the battery from a flashlight, "think?" (small beam example) only has so much power, but some would say the different levels of light never end, so still go to points of where we cannot see anymore or recognize with our naked eye, (or some such effect?). I've heard something about a candle light in a room...(?) Like the immediate flame - sure we see quite clearly, and then an outer one (ring/glow - uh huh), and then... well, really the whole room does have light affect, different levels of it to it's darkest corners. [/quote]

Well, do I believe that it goes on forever? Yes, after a fashion I do. The light from a flashlight is the same 'stuff' as the light from the sun (albeit, in the case of the former, a much more narrow band of the stuff). The light from any source (regardless of what that source is) spreads out according to the inverse square law (our old friend from a couple of days ago) such that as it travels it becomes more diffuse and as it gets more diffuse, it becomes more and more dim. To give you a sense of what is happening, think of a laser--the most focused and coherent stream of photons (light) that we know how to create. A laser pointed at the Moon starts out as a tightly focused beam maybe one or two human hairs think (40 microns or so), by the time it reaches the moon it is a beam a *mile* wide!

So does the light keep going forever? Yes, it does since photons (particles of light) have no mass they just keep moving at the speed of light. However, because of the inverse square law, they become very, very dim to the point of not being visible but the photons are still traveling. Some alien intelligence, looking back at the Earth wouldn't really notice our visible light because it would be washed out by the brightness of the Sun. In fact, most of our light transmissions would be washed out by the sun with the exception of microwave and radio transmissions. These would be *very* faint but there would be a lot more of them than one would expect from a star like ours which would be a tip-off to any aliens doing a SETI-like search.

I do love the tradition of the ancient eastern philosophies as well. Which incorporate seasonal changes, have the meridians which is amazingly accurate, on and on... some believe this, some do not. That's not religion though, yet something not always easily proved scientifically. Some scientists who have studied this affect with accupunture treatment, believe and some do not. (I saw a show recently on the History or a PBS channel regarding this, as well as herbal remedies and such.)

I know the show you're talking about. NOVA has done some pretty decent work on CAM therapies but there's only so much you can communicate in one hour. My reading on CAM therapies is that when subjected to the kind of testing we put every OTHER medical intervention through (or did before the Republicans decided that the FDA and the NIH were boondoggles and gutted them) there's no healing ability beyond what we would expect from the placebo effect.

If a meteor strikes the Atantic ocean, the ripple affect with no doubt come crashing inland. Why wouldn't that be different on any collision or ripple energy affect no matter where it is? Outside the gravity force, thus not suseptible for us - says who?

The difference here is that the meteor crashing into the Earth is actually obeying some rather simple physics. As it moves through the air, it is displacing air (thus the shockwave in front of it and the sonic boom behind) and being heated by friction (thus the glow). When it hits, all of that energy gets transferred to the Earth and using a very simple equation (Force=mass*acceleration) we can make predictions about what kinds of things we should see. If it hits the water, it will displace the water (thus a tsunami) and then when it finally strikes solid ground it will displace more earth (thus a second tsunami) causing it to eject into the stratosphere. The heat will be transferred to the ejecta and a crater will form.

The thing is, we've detected all four forces. Now, to give you an idea of just how sensitive our instruments are we can detect the strong and weak nuclear forces. These are of such short range that they ONLY exist inside atoms! You will never ever feel either the nuclear force or the weak force. Even though this is true, the gravitational force is weaker than either of those. The only reason why gravity seems so strong is that there's so damn much mass in the Earth to create it. So if there's some other force out there then it is MUCH weaker than the gravitational force and would need to be shorter range than either the strong or weak nuclear forces in order to explain why we haven't detected it so far. Might there be one? Sure, it's *possible* but that doesn't make it likely.

BUT, I'm talking about movement of things in space (on land, in space), something quite different.

Actually, these are not different *at all*. In fact, if we were in a perfectly sealed spaceship and moving at a constant velocity you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between being on the spaceship and being at rest on the launchpad! They would feel *exactly* the same, provided we didn't accelerate. There's nothing particularly special about being on land or in space when talking about movement. Acceleration and gravity are interchangeable for one another.

One thing I find really interesting about these discussions is just how much other people trust their brains/minds and how little I trust mine. I presume that my brain is error-ridden, tends to see patterns where none exists, and subject to various optical-illusions and errors in thinking. I sometimes *wish* that I trusted my brain enough to presume that if I think that, for instance, my grandmother contacted me psychically the night she died that means that she *did* contact me. However, I don't trust my brain that much which might seem odd but it isn't. My habit of thinking is to try to avoid what I *want* to be true and to always question 'why do I think this is the way things work'.

Cheers
Aj

[Toughy]

I know the show you're talking about. NOVA has done some pretty decent work on CAM therapies but there's only so much you can communicate in one hour. My reading on CAM therapies is that when subjected to the kind of testing we put every OTHER medical intervention through (or did before the Republicans decided that the FDA and the NIH were boondoggles and gutted them) there's no healing ability beyond what we would expect from the placebo effect.

derail here.................

Actually acupuncture does work in certain cases and when used the way it is practiced in China. It is a 3000+ year old system of medicine.

When Nixon went to China he took a bunch of western docs with him. They were STUNNED to find the Chinese preforming surgery using acupuncture as anesthesia. STUNNED does not even describe their reactions.

The Community Program for Clinical Research on AIDS (CPCRA) did a large study comparing acupuncture to elavil for pain relief in peripheral neuropathy. I was a member of the team that designed that study. It was an amazing thing to watch Japanese and Chinese acupuncturists argue about which meridans to use for neuropathy. If memory serves the study was equivocal when the data was analyzed. I could be wrong as I was out of the biz by the time the study was finished.

On a anecdotal note from my personal experience......Many years ago (like 25) I was having huge amounts of trouble with my asthma due to eucalyptus allergies (I had just moved to the Bay Area). It was so bad I was on high dose (with a taper) prednisone 4 times in a year.....asthma out of control with nothing really working. My color was that gray you get when you don't move oxygen well.

A friend hounded me into going to an old chinese woman (Madame Wu) who was a chinese doctor for acupuncture. She did not speak much English....she just patted my hand and said.....no worry me fix.....as I was filling out paperwork. She watched me, took my pulses .........smiled and said.....you strong me fix.....

She put me on a table and stuck about 30 or so needles in my body..........I promptly went sound asleep for about 45 minutes..........this in a strange woman's house deep in Chinatown SF who spoke very little English. She finally came in and started taking out the needles......I woke up as she was doing that. She patted my hand and said........you fix now........and took me to a mirror.........I looked in the mirror and damn if I wasn't all pink and I could breathe.......I could feel the air moving in my lungs. I did not have any issues with my asthma at all....no meds....no nothing......for 3-4 years.

Flash forward about 15 years and I am living in Santa Fe NM. My lungs started acting up again..dirt allergies..I had been working with an acupuncturist designing a study using acupuncture for fatigue/quality of life issues. So.........I am in the middle of an attack....lips turning blue I need to go to the hospital....epi pen in hand....and I go to her office. She put about 6 or so needles in my back and my lungs opened up immediately........Air moved.........no western inhaler acts that fast..........

So from my experience acupuncture works great for asthma. And I would much prefer some needles to all those nasty western drugs.


Anyway............derail over

[WILDCAT]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

I'm curious about this. How long did this exhaustion last? I ask because there wasn't ONE impact, there were twenty-one impacts! Over an extended period of time. The largest one happened about 7:30 in the morning GMT two days after the 'event' began.

Let me ask you AJ, when it's said that a beam of light goes to infinity, do you believe that? I kinda "don't", as the battery from a flashlight, "think?" (small beam example) only has so much power, but some would say the different levels of light never end, so still go to points of where we cannot see anymore or recognize with our naked eye, (or some such effect?). I've heard something about a candle light in a room...(?) Like the immediate flame - sure we see quite clearly, and then an outer one (ring/glow - uh huh), and then... well, really the whole room does have light affect, different levels of it to it's darkest corners. [/quote]

Well, do I believe that it goes on forever? Yes, after a fashion I do. The light from a flashlight is the same 'stuff' as the light from the sun (albeit, in the case of the former, a much more narrow band of the stuff). The light from any source (regardless of what that source is) spreads out according to the inverse square law (our old friend from a couple of days ago) such that as it travels it becomes more diffuse and as it gets more diffuse, it becomes more and more dim. To give you a sense of what is happening, think of a laser--the most focused and coherent stream of photons (light) that we know how to create. A laser pointed at the Moon starts out as a tightly focused beam maybe one or two human hairs think (40 microns or so), by the time it reaches the moon it is a beam a *mile* wide!

So does the light keep going forever? Yes, it does since photons (particles of light) have no mass they just keep moving at the speed of light. However, because of the inverse square law, they become very, very dim to the point of not being visible but the photons are still traveling. Some alien intelligence, looking back at the Earth wouldn't really notice our visible light because it would be washed out by the brightness of the Sun. In fact, most of our light transmissions would be washed out by the sun with the exception of microwave and radio transmissions. These would be *very* faint but there would be a lot more of them than one would expect from a star like ours which would be a tip-off to any aliens doing a SETI-like search.




I know the show you're talking about. NOVA has done some pretty decent work on CAM therapies but there's only so much you can communicate in one hour. My reading on CAM therapies is that when subjected to the kind of testing we put every OTHER medical intervention through (or did before the Republicans decided that the FDA and the NIH were boondoggles and gutted them) there's no healing ability beyond what we would expect from the placebo effect.




The difference here is that the meteor crashing into the Earth is actually obeying some rather simple physics. As it moves through the air, it is displacing air (thus the shockwave in front of it and the sonic boom behind) and being heated by friction (thus the glow). When it hits, all of that energy gets transferred to the Earth and using a very simple equation (Force=mass*acceleration) we can make predictions about what kinds of things we should see. If it hits the water, it will displace the water (thus a tsunami) and then when it finally strikes solid ground it will displace more earth (thus a second tsunami) causing it to eject into the stratosphere. The heat will be transferred to the ejecta and a crater will form.

The thing is, we've detected all four forces. Now, to give you an idea of just how sensitive our instruments are we can detect the strong and weak nuclear forces. These are of such short range that they ONLY exist inside atoms! You will never ever feel either the nuclear force or the weak force. Even though this is true, the gravitational force is weaker than either of those. The only reason why gravity seems so strong is that there's so damn much mass in the Earth to create it. So if there's some other force out there then it is MUCH weaker than the gravitational force and would need to be shorter range than either the strong or weak nuclear forces in order to explain why we haven't detected it so far. Might there be one? Sure, it's *possible* but that doesn't make it likely.




Actually, these are not different *at all*. In fact, if we were in a perfectly sealed spaceship and moving at a constant velocity you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between being on the spaceship and being at rest on the launchpad! They would feel *exactly* the same, provided we didn't accelerate. There's nothing particularly special about being on land or in space when talking about movement. Acceleration and gravity are interchangeable for one another.

One thing I find really interesting about these discussions is just how much other people trust their brains/minds and how little I trust mine. I presume that my brain is error-ridden, tends to see patterns where none exists, and subject to various optical-illusions and errors in thinking. I sometimes *wish* that I trusted my brain enough to presume that if I think that, for instance, my grandmother contacted me psychically the night she died that means that she *did* contact me. However, I don't trust my brain that much which might seem odd but it isn't. My habit of thinking is to try to avoid what I *want* to be true and to always question 'why do I think this is the way things work'.

Cheers
Aj[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the responses AJ.

You know I'm not sure of length of time (feeling affected), being back that far - and I was recovering from a nice contusion on the left side of my brain, where my "intuitive" right side kind of blew wide open at that time. I'm not sure what your opinion is of the left brain/right brain functions. It seems medical scientists know or have concluded quite a bit thus far...(?)

I had been told for many years that I needed to get past my left side thinking brain, as I was too "triple earth grounded", from my birth moment - if one believes spacing, location and allignment with planets and all, longitude/latitude, and time of births affect our personalites and such. (Horoscope, planetary allignment charting stuff is where I would hear this... I knew some good astrologers, who respected this as such a science?)

However, it (being so left brain) helped me to be very good at the type of work that I did. And even being sensitive as an emotional human being really helped me in the field I was in! (Of course, other factors affect who we are also.)

However, I'm thinking I may have an incorrect reference of collision here. Did something happen around '94? I'm thinking this was actually two comets colliding? And it seems to me that it happened around 3:30PM something - give or take so many minutes...(?)

Then, I just happened to look at the clock, and found out later it was the same precise time of the collision I have in mind. I nearly blacked out, like getting shot up with a heavy tranquilizer, or something like that I hear of. I slept for a few hours, and I may have been out of it for a few days after - but again it is a bit fuzzy in recall now - but what an amazing coincidence that experience was.

And I apologize if I am mixing up collisions and dates. This is only one period that I identify with as something changed and happened, that I felt. It was quite particular - to me and some others I knew as it turned out. Perhaps other things happening out there in the great beyond had impact on me too over the years, I just don't think about it or keep abreast of much of the happenings - even though I am fascinated by it all. I saw on the "last" site, you had posted something, starting a thread on a near collision with something (meteor?) and earth, that we were not really told much about. I remember I wanted to write on that thread, but I think you dropped out of writing there sometime not too long after that. (Or, I found the thread... later after you had begun it.)

But, I digress a bit here.

Yeah, I'll bet it's hard trusting things with your brain having the type of scientific mind that you do. And there nothing to defend with a scientific mind or brain! It's all good, and necessary. All things serve their purposes, mostly good for the most part - I think! (I try and stay positive, but I'm only human!) I hope that your grandmother came to visit you though. How wonderful is that, if it were somehow true?

Years back, while living in N.Y.C. I was enjoying what happened to be Good Friday, reading the paper in my apt., the sun was streaming in and the cats were basking in it, and all was good and happy in my life - and then I was hit with the worst sense of PURE HARDCORE GRIEF that I have ever experienced. I bent over in emotional pain and cried and cried... I drove into Manhattan (from Brooklyn) sobbing so hard my stomach hurt and I wasn't driving too well in the heavy traffic! I went to my girlfriends at that time, and she saw my facial and body expression and asked what had happened. I could only say, someone just died and that I was so much pain and full of grief... (and I said it must be my one grandmother, I just naturally, for whatever reason, assumed her - she was older and I felt such a close "gut" feeling about this, etc... I didn't question someone had died, I knew.) So, I stayed with her until Easter Sunday and she came back with me on Sunday. I said "can't you feel the change in the energy just coming into the neighborhood"? I know that doesn't make sense, it was just how I was feeling. She of course, did not pick up on anything different. I also said there was going to be one message on the answering machine and it wasn't going to be good news.

Well, there was one. I didn't want to take it, but she said "what if it is for me" from a family member? So, here it was my best friend from Pittsburgh. We were getting ready to go to Washington for an AIDS demonstration or gay rights (?)... and I really thought I was nuts right then, and that he was calling about our hotel arrangements for D.C. So, I called him and rattled off this hysteria to him (it's kind of funny now, thinking about it) and he was SOOOOOOO quiet. I asked him if I interrupted sex between him and his partner! He just said, "no, I don't know how to tell you this". And what it was, on Good Friday an ex-girlfriend of mine had died - and I'm telling you AJ I don't have a doubt in my mind that she was there in spirit or something somehow, in an INSTANT!

I later found out she did closure with everyone, all of our old friends - except for my best friend in Pittsburgh (and they had not kept in touch anyway), and myself. In fact, she asked folks not to let me know she was dying. She lived in San Fran then.

Just a little story to think about... (?)

Hope you're having a nice day!
__

Oh, when I said "I'm talking about movement on land and space, as being something different", I believe I was in my head relating the difference to biblical like stories and religion based on these stories that folks believe in, that we have no fact of... not the difference between impact on land and space - just movement wherever (including impacts). But, appreciate your explanation on that. And I might even being mixing your response up incorrectly (?)

I have a fun little old link somewhere I want to track down and post. I'd be curious to see what some folks think of it... It in interesting and ties into science and astrology, etc... I'll look for it (once my cramps settle down).

And another question for ya AJ. What is outside of our known "universe"? Do you think it's possible that there are other universes - that space is infinite and that it is quite possible (and beyond our current scientific capabilities) to see or know about this at this time? Like for shits and giggles, say somewhere like earth exist in another universe, and perhaps folks are much more advanced and different spiritually - having evolved I'll say, (kind of like in the movie Contact, if you happened to have seen that, with Jodie Foster).

I think how in the '60 our rockets shot up and dumped back into the ocean, and now we have precision landing. Maybe that's why at vary times in history here, folks perhaps saw various flying objects or crafts - not familiar to them? (And no, I don't believe all stories!) If we advanced so quickly in a few short decades, what about somewhere else, maybe "ahead of us" then? Maybe we will evolve in ways not yet understood. Maybe there's somewhere behind us evolving where we or others "were"...(?) How can there ONLY be space past our universe? And of course, I don't think there is a wall or sorts to stop space...

Just thinking here... letting the Motrin kick in.

Thanks,
Wildcat

*If this is too deraily folks, oops.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by WILDCAT

[COLOR="DarkSlateBlue"]Thanks for the responses AJ.

You know I'm not sure of length of time (feeling affected), being back that far - and I was recovering from a nice contusion on the left side of my brain, where my "intuitive" right side kind of blew wide open at that time. I'm not sure what your opinion is of the left brain/right brain functions. It seems medical scientists know or have concluded quite a bit thus far...(?)

It's clear that the brain organizes itself in hemispheres and that these hemispheres have somewhat different roles. I see no reason, at present, to doubt that this is the case.

However, I'm thinking I may have an incorrect reference of collision here. Did something happen around '94? I'm thinking this was actually two comets colliding? And it seems to me that it happened around 3:30PM something - give or take so many minutes...(?)

The Shoemaker-Levy collision with Jupiter was in the summer of 1994, over a period of about a week. Keep in mind that if you are saying you felt some signal sent to you from Jupiter that signal took around 45 minutes to reach you (that's the transit time for a signal, moving at the speed of light, to go from Jupiter to Earth).

And I apologize if I am mixing up collisions and dates. This is only one period that I identify with as something changed and happened, that I felt. It was quite particular - to me and some others I knew as it turned out. Perhaps other things happening out there in the great beyond had impact on me too over the years, I just don't think about it or keep abreast of much of the happenings - even though I am fascinated by it all. I saw on the "last" site, you had posted something, starting a thread on a near collision with something (meteor?) and earth, that we were not really told much about. I remember I wanted to write on that thread, but I think you dropped out of writing there sometime not too long after that. (Or, I found the thread... later after you had begun it.)

You might be talking about the Apophis near-Earth pass event that will take place in 2029. I've written about it elsewhere on this thread so I'll just give the quick recap. Apophis will pass VERY close to Earth (lower than the geosynchronous orbit of satellites) in 2029. It's not likely to hit the Earth then however, if it passes through a very small region called a 'keyhole' (I was wrong in my earlier post the keyhole is only about 600 meters across) then on its outbound pass it will hit the Earth on April 13, 2036.

Yeah, I'll bet it's hard trusting things with your brain having the type of scientific mind that you do.

This is a matter of training my mind to behave. I was, at one point in my life, a believer in faith healing, speaking in tongues, that homosexuality was caused by a demon, all manner of non-sensical things. After I left that worldview, I spent another few years studying astrology and tarot until one of my professor's asked me to explain how astrology worked in a complete and full manner since I was claiming it was scientific. When I couldn't come up with a reasonable mechanism, given the standard of astronomy (and since I was claiming that astrology and astronomy were both science the standard of evidence had to be normalized between the two) I had to abandon my faith in astronomy.

I hope that your grandmother came to visit you though. How wonderful is that, if it were somehow true?

That would be a nice thought but that doesn't make it a true thought.

And another question for ya AJ. What is outside of our known "universe"?

Well that depends upon what you mean by the 'known universe'. If you mean 'what is the Universe expanding into' I'm not sure that I can even give a speculative answer because I don't know and I'm not sure that it is a meaningful question. We are used to things like balloons expanding into available space but, as I understand it, as the Universe expands more space is being created! So outside of that known universe, I have no idea. There's another concept of known universe (and it's the one I prefer because it makes more sense to me) is that which is visible within our light-cone. Keep in mind that whenever you see *anything* you are looking at as it was however long ago light left it. Now, for all of our day-to-day seeing that can be considered instantaneous because light is fast and nothing on Earth is far away when traveling at the speed of light. However, when you look at the sun you are not seeing as it is now but as it was 8 minutes ago. So telescopes are, after a fashion, time machines. The very BEST telescope humans have built, the Hubble Space Telescope, can see back to the early Universe when it was only half a billion years old. But no further back than that. Why? Because before that the Universe was too hot for there to be free-floating photons so that is out of what is called our 'light cone'.

Do you think it's possible that there are other universes - that space is infinite and that it is quite possible (and beyond our current scientific capabilities) to see or know about this at this time?

I think it's *possible* certainly. What I have read of various multiverse hypothesis seem reasonably coherent although it's hard wrapping my head around them.

Like for shits and giggles, say somewhere like earth exist in another universe, and perhaps folks are much more advanced and different spiritually - having evolved I'll say, (kind of like in the movie Contact, if you happened to have seen that, with Jodie Foster).

Well, we don't necessarily have to look outside our universe for that. Given how many stars there are in all of the galaxies I think it's likely that life exists elsewhere in the Universe. Given what a neat trick intelligence is, I'd be willing to wager that there's other *intelligent* life in the Universe. Now, I think the supreme cosmic joke is that there may be intelligent life throughout the Universe but because of the limitation of the speed of light, we're all isolated in our little pockets.

I think how in the '60 our rockets shot up and dumped back into the ocean, and now we have precision landing. Maybe that's why at vary times in history here, folks perhaps saw various flying objects or crafts - not familiar to them? (And no, I don't believe all stories!) If we advanced so quickly in a few short decades, what about somewhere else, maybe "ahead of us" then?

I very strongly doubt that the Earth has been visited by extraterrestial beings. The reasons for this are numerous. For starters, exploration of distant stars is time consuming so if you're going to go somewhere you have a destination. Let's say we could build a spaceship capable of traveling the speed of light. A round-trip to the next *nearest* star would be 8 years (four out and four back). Because of the time-dilation affect, your subjective 8 years would be close to a thousand years here on Earth! So there's that for starters (this is not something related to us on Earth this is just true for ANY civilization that could build a ship that could accelerate to the speed of light). So why would aliens come to this planet? Until about 100 years ago, there would be no sure tell-tale sign from space that the planet had *intelligent* life (you could view the chemistry of our atmosphere and, presuming you were from a planet like Earth where animals breathed oxygen, surmise that this much oxygen in the atmosphere means that there must be plant life). So until we started sending radio signals out we would look like a planet with an unusually poisonous atmosphere (remember that oxygen is waste gas of plants). The other reason I doubt that we've been visited is that the energy requirements would be HUGE.

I'm not saying that interstellar travel is impossible. I'd like to believe that, in fact, some civilization has reduced the problem from a scientific issue (can it be done) to an engineering problem (how to do it economically and safely).


Cheers
Aj