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10-07-2011, 11:45 AM
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Senior Member
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Brother, I see your point entirely, but I also see how reality works for many folks, too. I'm not going to pick you apart for your view. I think what it all boils down to is this. Most folks make choices based on the best they can do, at the time they have to do it in, with what they have to work with. Sometimes, a person can't always make the "best" choice that another person would agree with. Most of the time, it's entirely dependent on what you have to work with that your choices hinge on. There have been times in my life when I've had to make some rather unsavory choices, and perhaps someone else might have viewed what I chose to be a "wrong" choice, but I had nothing else to work with and few options to choose from. I ended up making a few choices that I didn't even agree with, and would have rather *not* done, ordinarily, but I did what I felt I had to do, with what I had to work with. I think there are a lot of folks out there who are in some pretty desperate situations, and none of their options are what those of us, viewing it from the outside, would choose, but it is what it is for these folks. Who judges another's choices from the outside?? How do we fairly do that?? How do we know what another's priorities are in their situations?? We don't. We've *all* had tough times, at one time or another. It's the human experience. Sometimes I shake my head when I see someone do something that I, personally, might think as being a "bad choice", but I seldom am in a position to know exactly what that person's situation is, and what their options truly are. For instance, as someone who has never had children of my own (because I didn't *choose* to have them), I could look at someone with 2-5 kids, who is living on $20K/yr (or less), and think to myself "Dayyyum, keep yer legz SHUT!!!", but you know, that person may have, as a priority in their lives, a desire for a (large??) family. Now, some/most of us might see that and think the same thing I think, but the reality for that person with the kids is that family, and having kids is *the* most important thing in their lives. They may or may not have been raised by their parents to have this as their priority, or they may have been raised in a large family with the same mentality. Their take on it is, "We'll have the family we want and we'll somehow make it, the same as my parents did when I was born. We'll get by somehow. We'll make it work." Someone like me, however, sees that as a piss poor choice in life. I don't share those priorities, so I have very little empathy for someone who just keeps "poppin' 'em out" with no idea about how they're going to provide for these kids. Still, do I get to judge?? Do I have a right to condemn?? I don't really care for folks like that to be driving my taxes up with an increased demand on public assistance. On the other hand, I collect disability from the federal government, based on the fact that I developed a severe health problem during my time in military service. Taxpayers pay me a rather good check every month, yet I'm able to still work (and I have a full time job) as I am able to. You know, that fact alone pisses a LOT of folks off. Thing is, they don't see or feel the pain I do as I move through my day with chronic severe pain. I "suck it up" most of the time and I don't complain about it. There's no need to. It is what it is, but I've made a *choice* to keep going and cope with this pain in order to fulfill my own priority of staying "useful" for as long as I can, as much as I can. These other folks who might want to stand in judgment of my choice don't know my personal circumstance, or might not understand my priority of needing to maintain "usefulness" as long as I can. For me, it's not money. My priority is, at the end of the day, what I think of myself. My self esteem is very much linked to my sense of "usefulness". So, who gets to judge me?? Who knows exactly how much I hurt, and what I go through to just be able to live MY priority....my need to be useful?? That's important to me, just as having that big family and "figuring it out as we go/living hand to mouth/living with public assistance". One person's priority might be someone else's view of a "poor choice". Who gets to judge?? I've had this discussion many times, over the years, with folks who have all sorts of different viewpoints. My conclusion is this......none of us have a right to judge others' choices. We're all doing the best we can, with what we have, with what we have to do it with, at the time we have to do it. My .02  ~Theo~ 
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"All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost." -- J. R. R. Tolkien
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10-07-2011, 11:56 AM
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#2 | |
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Infamous Member
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Case in point....the family who owned this house before us. They bought it 9 years ago, refinanced it five times, took the money and bought boats, 4 wheelers, fishing gear, an RV, cars, etc. By the time they left, after not making a single mortgage payment in over a year, they owed 3 times what the house could sell for. The bank took the hit...sold it...and now I'm paying that smaller mortgage. Honestly...their choices. I wouldn't make them. I prefer to keep my living expenses reasonable enough that I could pay them on a bartenders salary because, as you say....we can all be there, or have been there. I've been there. I dug myself into financial holes that took me years to dig out of and cost me dearly. I (mostly) learned my lesson. So....they can refinance their house, bet on "pie in the sky" real estate speculation, and buy a mountain of toys that I couldn't afford even with the job I have now. When they left, they took the toys. They also stole the solar pool heaters off the roof, but that's another issue. They walked out on about $200,000 in debt....and we are all paying it off for them....while they still have their toys. That just bothers me, and I don't think it's right. To Linus' (and others) point...I have no idea how many people in foreclosure were like the previous owners here, and how many got caught in a bad situation they couldn't help....losing a job, health problems, etc. I don't think we should ignore the difference though. No, it's not easy to figure out who deserves help and who doesn't....but dang....I work hard and I can't afford a boat...yet the previous owners of this house still have one, while we all pay the higher fees and interest that the bank will be charging for years to make back that $200,000.
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10-07-2011, 12:09 PM
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#3 | |
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The Planet's Technical Bubba
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As for the differences (unless this has changed), I know in Canada if you quit your job and there is no justifiable reason for it (e.g., health, wanting to do a significant career change, etc.) you don't get employment insurance. That said, I do believe that basic health care (e.g., to cover things like accidents, etc.) should be available. A healthy workforce and a reduction in stress makes for a far happier workforce. As a tangent, my biggest beef right now is the banks charging rates well above those of those cheque cashing places. For all intents and purposes, banks are a form of legalized loan sharks. Interest rates are at less than 1% and mortgages are less than 4% (for 30 years). And yet, credit cards have fees that range from 25%+. I've never missed a payment and always pay more than minimum and yet, it got raised (I argued it back down but seriously!)
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10-07-2011, 12:22 PM
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#4 | |
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Infamous Member
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Totally and absolutely agree....and that's one of the most frustrating things (to me) in this whole situation. People who got lied to by predatory lenders, people who lost their job and got caught in a market with no jobs to be had....they're all suffering because so many speculators got greedy and then called foul. And...yea....me too on the credit card thing. Frustrating as hell. Banks, I believe, need some serious regulation....and we need to organize a heck of a lot more credit unions that are non-profits, run cooperatively by members, who keep the costs of borrowing down. Banks, as they exist now, ARE loan sharks in my view...and it's disgusting.
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