Click.... when we knew we were feminists

[Bad_boi]

I don't really think I could ever be a feminist. I would rather be a gender equalist. I see females as equals. Some feminists twist it and wind up hating males and that is the same problem just reversed. (not saying ALL feminists do this) Sexism is sexism. One thing that really bugs me is when a woman will get mad at me for holding a door open or something of the kind. I help people because it is nice. It does not matter to me the person's gender. If they are behind me I am not letting the door hit them and that is really the bottom line there.

[Sparkle]

I have the Catholic Church to thank for my feminism.

I was born "out of wedlock" to my still-in-catholic-high-school taught-by-nuns mother when she was barely 18. My very catholic grandmother was very concerned for my soul; consequently I was in church with her from the time I was an infant and I was enrolled in church school from the moment they would take me.

At age 6, when I discovered that I could neither be a priest nor an altar boy I was shocked and taken aback, when I was told I could not hold those roles BECAUSE I was girl - I was disgusted and appalled. (and I still remember that moment distinctly). I spent the next ten years of my religious education questioning the rationale of every sexist policy, practice and story in the books.

[Dominique]

Originally Posted by Bad_boi

I don't really think I could ever be a feminist. I would rather be a gender equalist. I see females as equals. Some feminists twist it and wind up hating males and that is the same problem just reversed. (not saying ALL feminists do this) Sexism is sexism. One thing that really bugs me is when a woman will get mad at me for holding a door open or something of the kind. I help people because it is nice. It does not matter to me the person's gender. If they are behind me I am not letting the door hit them and that is really the bottom line there.

Hey Bad_Boi....I am going to ask you to elaborate a little further (please)
on the part I changed to red. I find it confusing. Anti woman sentiment. Thank you.

[Bad_boi]

Originally Posted by Yellow band

Hey Bad_Boi....I am going to ask you to elaborate a little further (please)
on the part I changed to red. I find it confusing. Anti woman sentiment. Thank you.

What I mean by that is the feminists that get pissed off for no good reason. If I am polite to a feminist woman, they perceive it incorrectly. I am being nice because I am nice. It has nothing to do with me patronizing or thinking a woman is weak. I know women are capable. The fact of the matter is people are people and should be treated equally.

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by Bad_boi

What I mean by that is the feminists that get pissed off for no good reason. If I am polite to a feminist woman, they perceive it incorrectly. I am being nice because I am nice. It has nothing to do with me patronizing or thinking a woman is weak. I know women are capable. The fact of the matter is people are people and should be treated equally.

Bad_boi- Why do you assume that a)When a woman is impolite to you that it has something to do with them being a feminist? b)That you are not a feminist if you believe that women and men should be treated equally? (See the definition of 'feminist' as posted by Anya above.)

As weatherboi wrote, it's extremely IMPOLITE of you to come into a thread about when we knew we were feminists and gratuitously trash feminists and feminism.

You continue to defend your offensive post. Perhaps something else you're doing or saying is pissing off those feminists, (exactly the way you pissed off THIS feminist), not the fact that you're holding the door.

[Dominique]

Originally Posted by Bad_boi

What I mean by that is the feminists that get pissed off for no good reason. If I am polite to a feminist woman, they perceive it incorrectly. I am being nice because I am nice. It has nothing to do with me patronizing or thinking a woman is weak. I know women are capable. The fact of the matter is people are people and should be treated equally.

Thanks for coming back and answering. I agree, people are people and always will be. Frustrating sometimes. How do you readily Identify a feminist if you are being nice and treating people equally? Or is that How you Identify a feminist? They object? (I know previously you said some, we will stick with some).

[persiphone]

i was raised in an all female household by a hippie feminist mom, and one very pissed off grandmother. we lived in the ghetto and all the kids on my street were girls, but i went to a christian private school, so there was a strange dichotomy i grew up with. at home, i could grow up and be anything i wanted. at school, i was to grow up to be a good and obedient christian wife and have babies. clearly, that didn't happen! lol!

however, my AHAA! moment happened when i was 17. i was in DC visiting a boyfriend in the air force at the time and we happend to be on the mall at the same time a major NOW march on the mall was happening. it was the most amazing thing i'd ever seen. there were 100,000 women in that march and the banners were so big that it took 20 women across to hold them. i still get goosebumps thinking about it. i stood there for an hour or more waiting for them to pass. and they were so loud! i really felt those women move through me. i've been true to the cause ever since.

i get sad sometimes that there is strife about feminism in the b/f community. i hear it often brought up that feminists pushed back hard on the b/f community and i'm both sad it happened and sad that there is a stigma about feminists that exists today because of it.

[Bad_boi]

I said nothing offensive. If you are taking offense I whole heartedly appologize that you feel that way.

I know full well that I cannot argue my veiws on here anymore. It is always 10 to 1. Me being the one. I have a valid point and so does everyone else. I am sick and tired of everyone ganging up on me and raging at me for my opinions and experiences. I am tired of being singled out. It seems every time the dash site crashes and I wind up here I wind up in some kind of drama. I am sick of this.. I never said anything against women or feminists. I said something against the feminists that are overly angry at people for their positive actions twards women. The fact that certain people in here are making a mountain over a molehill further proves my point.

TLDR:
I am not attacking anyone so please stop attacking me.
Please stop misinterpenetrating what I am saying and don't jump to conclusions.

[AtLast]

There are several veins of feminist thought as well as generational differences. The Feminist Waves continue too flourish. We are in the development of a Fourth Wave right now. Feminism is elastic and speaks to each generation based upon what is relevant to each generation. And this old time Second Waver has no problem integrating more contemporary ideology into thought and actions.

[femmeInterrupted]

It is December, 1989. The Montreal Massacre is all over the news. I am watching in the family room, surrounded by my Father, and 4 brothers. I am 20 years old, and devastated by what I am watching on television. I remember my reaction because it was visceral. It was one of the first times I remember crying with outrage and grief, shock, fear...and anger. My father told me (in front of my brothers) that I was being ridiculous and that 'People died every day'. No biggie.

That experience has stayed with me, to this day.

I have been so lucky and privileged to have had (and have) feminist mentors in my life, which spans and is integrated professionally and personally. My consciousness raising came when I began to study in depth, violence against women, feminism, and 'women's issues'. I recall being overwhelmed with a sense of relief and home-coming, as I listened to these brilliant women, Professors, grass-roots activists, feminists, giving voice and language to issues and realities that had previously only swirled around in my mind, a loosely threaded galaxy of feelings and 'wrongness' that was best articulated and explained in language I had a) never learned despite my education and b) herstory I had never learned despite said education.

My 'clicks' continue to happen as I move through this world. The anti-oppression work, of which my feminism is deeply integrated continues. It's a part of who I am, and how I see the world, how I deconstruct and interpret everything that flows past and through me experientially.

It has lead me to the experience the true joy of sisterhood, the true joy of belonging, the solid and affirming joy of friendship and sisterhood with women.

Despite the ugly harsh reality of women's lived realities, I find emotional and intellectual and political sustenance from threads like this, when I get to read what my sisters are sharing, about their own feminism, their own stories and experiences. The learning and difficult places in my self I've sat through when unlearning. Being the youngest in a circle of crones, I've had my ass handed to me, albeit it respectfully and with grace, a number of times I believe that 'you don't know what you don't know', but I also believe in the responsibility that comes with knowledge once it's yours.

I offer out an appreciation to all my feminist sisters! You all rock!


And when the sun rises we are afraid
it might not remain
when the sun sets we are afraid
it might not rise in the morning
when our stomachs are full we are afraid
of indigestion
when our stomachs are empty we are afraid
we may never eat again
when we are loved we are afraid
love will vanish
when we are alone we are afraid
love will never return
and when we speak we are afraid
our words will not be heard
nor welcomed
but when we are silent
we are still afraid

So it is better to speak
remembering
we were never meant to survive


Audre Lorde

[imperfect_cupcake]

My parents brought me up socialist and feminist but I had no idea, really.
when it was concrete, it was, like femmeinterupted, at the Montreal Massacre. I was 20.

However, when I went lezzo, and i went to uni on Vancouver Island I met a bunch of lesbian separatists (who, as people were lovely) and moved in with them. And then the trouble started. I didn't really understand what kind of feminist politics they had. They were more of the Andrea Dworkin sort. And I'm not completely knocking Dworkin, she spoke about educating against rape and making MEN responsible about educating THEMSELVES long before anyone else did.
I did an action against a rapist of a friend of mine, because of one of her papers. We got a group, a big group of women together, and my friend who he had raped invited him to a busy restaurant. We placed the women around the restaurant and when he arrived and slid into the booth, we all stood up, about 15 of us, made a semi circle around him, and called him publically, named and shamed, each one of us, to what he did. My friend stood safely behind us. The waitress called the cops. He was terrified and freaked out. It was fantastic. He then tried to sue for slander and it didn't stick. which, of course, made his rapist ass even more public.

But man, some of Dwarkin's shit was whack and really oppressive of other women.

When I moved in with those women, I started to think "oh. maybe I'm not a feminist. I don't believe those things at ALL."
Then I decided to take femminist application courses, into the social and biological science courses I was taking. Those have been, to date, the hardest courses I have ever taken.

And it showed me I was indeed a feminist, just one that didn't believe the same things that the lesbians I lived with believed. I moved out as I felt pretty squashed and judged living there. I though all lesbians and feminists, especially those who weren't butch-femme were like that. And in the end, they got pretty mean. But once I started traveling and meeting lots of dykes, queers and bisexuals in different cities and different countries, and learning about the sex wars - I realised I could actually a) call myself a lesbian, I was allowed to and b) call myself a feminist, I was allowed to.

I still do have fights with people about porn and sex work and feminism. There is a massive difference between Independant workers, who work for themselves, set their own wages, their own hours and their own services and those being trafficked.

I personally like being objectified sexually - IF I GIVE MY CONSENT FIRST - to people I am attracted to. it's hawwwwwt! woof.
And I personally don't mind being objectified - if I give my consent first - within the boundaries of paid work. And ONLY during that set time. And there are a LOT of super hard, bitch-enforced rules about what does and does not happen. And someone breaks that rule? GONE. No negotiating, no apologies, no nada. Gone.
Working as a sex worker has done Mad Skillz Development for my ability to say "fuck right off, and keep fucking off" (aka "No") and stand up for myself against pre-programming as a polite and obedient girl that has to make sure everyone is ok. It has helped no end to my own personal issues of care taking (that is an issue with many women - you have to be needless and wantless and care for everything if it's sad or hurt or tired and screw your own needs).

Now I don't care if someone is blubbing a river and has their intestines on the floor, if you pass over one of my lines, you are gone.

And it has stopped my fear of men. I used to be terrified of them in a bar if they hit on me. Now I know that they bluff charge and being sincerely unafraid and knowing that I'm capable of kicking their ass and facing them down gives me more confidence. That confidence has helped me keep the idiots away. I no longer have that big whirling red light attracting idiots to me.

I hate how programmed girls are to be so submissive, polite and above all, don't be rude. Most of my issues with men have been because although my parents were for women's rights, my mom still has her programming and above all else, I had to suck it up and be polite. No matter what. Do not shame yourself by being rude.

That's what got me in so much trouble.

it's ok to be rude. it's absolutely ok, as a girl, to offend. it's totally ok to have someone get angry, be upset, and be hurt or offended by something I've said or done. it's also not my responsibility to look after them if they are. I am not going to be branded as a scarlet hussy and the universe will not implode.

just someone is offended. that's it. And that's absolutely ok.

I love feminism.

[weatherboi]

the whole point to this thread is to celebrate feminism. it is a mystery to me why you would choose to come in here and share this particular opinion. why come in and share your NONfeminist point of view in a thread that is focusing on the complete opposite? how is this relevant?
can you please clarify why you would come into this thread and insult some of our feminists (not saying ALL feminists will be insulted).

Originally Posted by Bad_boi

I don't really think I could ever be a feminist. I would rather be a gender equalist. I see females as equals. Some feminists twist it and wind up hating males and that is the same problem just reversed. (not saying ALL feminists do this) Sexism is sexism. One thing that really bugs me is when a woman will get mad at me for holding a door open or something of the kind. I help people because it is nice. It does not matter to me the person's gender. If they are behind me I am not letting the door hit them and that is really the bottom line there.

[Dominique]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

the whole point to this thread is to celebrate feminism. it is a mystery to me why you would choose to come in here and share this particular opinion. why come in and share your NONfeminist point of view in a thread that is focusing on the complete opposite? how is this relevant?
can you please clarify why you would come into this thread and insult some of our feminists (not saying ALL feminists will be insulted).

Thank-you weatherboi. Always the Gentleman, I was starting to think I was being overly sensitive.

[*Anya*]

fem·i·nism
[-i-niz-uhm]
- noun 1. support of social, political, and economic rights for women equal to those of men

Thank you Weatherboi.

It was inappropriate to post an anti-feminist statement in a thread supportive of said topic.

[Quintease]

Originally Posted by *Anya*

fem·i·nism
[-i-niz-uhm]
- noun 1. support of social, political, and economic rights for women equal to those of men

Thank you Weatherboi.

It was inappropriate to post an anti-feminist statement in a thread supportive of said topic.

I'm not so sure. I consider myself a feminist, yet just the other day I had a rant on a blog about 'man-hating' feminists getting involved in the sex worker movement - in that I don't think their involvement is appropriate. How can any woman who hates men be involved in any movement that involves women interacting with men, loving men or transitioning to be men?

The trouble with feminism that is against men rather than for women, is that it is often Louder than regular feminism and thus becomes the 'face' of feminism. So part of MY feminism is rejecting the oppression of women by other women.

[Cin]

I don’t think there is a kind of feminism whose definition is that it is against men. I don’t think there is a kind of lesbianism that is against men either. I think there may be people who identify a certain way that may be against men. They may be against puppies, chocolate or rainbows as well but I doubt anyone would advocate that puppy-hater, chocolate-hater or rainbow-hater, in the case of feminists who hate them, should be added to the word feminist and made into a type of feminism. I think there may be men or women, for that matter, who are any number of things, perhaps they are straight or queer or trans or religious or republican or roofers or sports writers who are also misogynist. That does not mean roofers or queers or any of the other things I mentioned should include women hater in their definition. I don’t think it is right and certainly it is not prudent to confuse the purpose and meaning of feminism and instead to define it by the actions of some feminists.

As women we are heirs to a legacy built by women’s libbers and the suffragettes who came before them. Most women will profess to believe in equal pay for equal work, in a woman’s right to choose, in the chance to play on athletic teams, run businesses, graduate from college, enter graduate school, run for public office etc., but if asked if they are a feminist, many will answer that they are not. They hold feminist views but reject the feminist label. Odd? Not really. Feminism has ended up with a rather nasty reputation.

But I suppose when you consider the size of the machine and the enormous power behind it that feminism had to face when it began it’s slow move toward both the vote and some semblance of equality, and add to that the extremely powerless position women were in at the time, it’s more than amazing that we have managed to come this far. Bad press was probably the least of our problems. But more than a hundred years of scare tactics designed to deter women from embracing the ideas of feminism have failed. But the sacrifice to the god of patriarchy seems to have been the term itself. Most women do embrace feminist ideas and ideals. It is identifying as a feminist that is unappealing.

I just think in a world where honor killings, acid attacks, female genital mutilation and other horrific injustices against women are still perpetrated at an alarming rate, and in a country where less that 6% of rapists serve jail time, where approximately 18% of congress is female, where decriminalizing domestic abuse is a reality, where, right now, a bill is in the works that will allow hospitals, if they wish, to let women die rather than performing a life saving abortion or transferring the women to another facility where they could receive the life saving procedure, it is an exercise in extreme folly to reject feminism.

[Quintease]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

I don’t think there is a kind of feminism whose definition is that it is against men.

I find it very surprising that you don't believe any part of the feminist movement to be anti-male. Perhaps where you're from the Rad Fem's embrace their transgender, genderqueer, kinky and sex worker sisters and brothers, but that doesn't happen everywhere. In fact where I'm living these groups have been prevented from attending, and/or speaking at political women's marches. That's a sign of oppression however good their intentions.

[dykeumentary]

Originally Posted by Quintease

I'm not so sure. I consider myself a feminist, yet just the other day I had a rant on a blog about 'man-hating' feminists getting involved in the sex worker movement - in that I don't think their involvement is appropriate. How can any woman who hates men be involved in any movement that involves women interacting with men, loving men or transitioning to be men?

The trouble with feminism that is against men rather than for women, is that it is often Louder than regular feminism and thus becomes the 'face' of feminism. So part of MY feminism is rejecting the oppression of women by other women.

I think that people getting involved in the sex worker movement is a good thing. I trust that good leadership will assist participants in the struggle to examine the 'isms' and prejudices they came to to the movement with. I trust the people in the movement will then help the others experience the power of coalition-building and movements made of true allies. I think people can evolve away from hate.

Justice work is messy and discouraging, and perfection can never be a standard of measurement. As someone who works against oppression, I find it more helpful to help move people forward from where they are. Nobody's perfect. Everyone has something to contribute.

To underscore this point, i will speak to the topic of this thread. I was raised in, and still exist in a very ugly and dangerous white working-class culture of racist, sexist, xenophobic people. I was a gifted athlete in a world where only boys did sports, yet I was better at almost every sport than any boy. My parents and I had to navigate a world where it was dangerous simply because I was gifted. They struggled with balancing their pride in me with their concern for my safety. It was the 70s but the evolution we went through wasn't because of "women's lib" or any "wave" of feminism. We evolved because of parents' love for their daughter.

So that's where I come from, and I grew into a person who cares deeply about justice. Do I know everything I'm supposed to? Far from it. Have I read theory and been at the right events? Hell no. I've been playing ball and chasing women with my free time. I do not, however, feel that this makes me less of a feminist. Nor do I feel like this excuses me from attending demonstrations, volunteering at feminist events, and speaking up in word and deed when i experience or witness sexism. For example.

I'm not perfect. I am a feminist. For me this means that every child should be encouraged to follow their dreams regardless of how any feature about them has been historically perceived.

[Random]

I think I just found out that I have feminist leanings...

I work with a couple of women who will not do grunge work. They say it's men's work...

I was stocking boxes of chill packs the other day when one of them told me to leave it for *inset male co workers name*. I looked at her and said bluntly. *If I want to make the same wage as men, then I have to be willing to do the same work*.

You can't have it both ways IMO...

I won't take out the trash at home... THAT'S my partners job, but I'll take it out at work....