The Strong Butch Female/Woman in a Patriarchal World

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by Parker

Even after sitting on it for what, 4 days, I cant seem to get past my anger at the above post telling me that transwomen "feel more like a woman" and "experience more violence" than I do as a butch woman. I'm trying to let it go because I dont want to derail the thread even further, but it just reiterates to me how, to some people, butches are just not seen as women.

Then when it comes to the pronouns and how when I correct someone who calls me he/hy online, they get pissed off at me, like I did something offensive by telling them I am a woman who prefers she; or when someone tells me they prefer butches who use he/hy because they like their butches more masculine, it reiterates to me that, to some people, butch women are still seen as less than and not masculine "enough" because we are women .... or worse, like we arent really even butches at all.

I see variations of these things almost everyday and it makes me feel invisible as a woman AND as a butch.

It's interesting how this thread is well over 2yrs old and things havent really changed - I can read Metro/Jett's and Bulldog's posts from then and they resonate within me now. There were so many posts I wanted to quote, I had to finally just stop hitting the little multi-quote button. lol

It's one thing to be misunderstood by the world at large - hell, I expect that because in their heads, masculine = male and feminine = female so to see someone like me: a butch woman who, even though I dont bind or pack, I still unintentionally pass as male 90% of the time every single day ... it just blows their fucking minds and their belief system goes all haywire on them.

Even in the lesbian community at large, butches and femmes are still sometimes seen as emulating a male/female couple from the 1950's - outdated and conforming to the binary.

So it really bothers me when that same mentality crosses over into a community like this - where butches are treated as men, even if we dont ID that way. We are expected to dress, talk, walk, and act a certain way, have sex a certain way, etc. and if we deviate from that maleness, we are considered less than.

Intellectually, I understand it is all rooted in sexism - masculinity and maleness is valued more in this patriarchal society than femininity and femaleness - but it doesnt suck any less to see it laid out in front of me day after day.

Speaking from this femmes POV it frustrates me a bit to have to (sometimes repeatedly) correct people that my partner is a she. She does not want to be a he, never has. They seem shocked at that, probably because she is butch. i want to be with a she, i am myself more comfortable with that so we fit well.

i have never wanted to emulate the life of straight folks, i don't want to look like them, i don't want to have sex like them and i don't want to be referred to as MAN/WOMAN..i don't want it to be expected that i want to be with a *male* ID'd partner.

[Kobi]

Thank you Parker for so eloquently saying what I often feel. And, I appreciate you relating this to sexism in our society.

It seems to me, we as women, have an easy time identifiying sexism as it relates to employment issues, salary issues, sexual harrassment and the like. We have a harder time seeing how our internalized sexism and misogyny affects how we see and treat other women. I suspect we also have a harder time seeing how this internatized stuff affects how we treat masculinity within this community.

In the same vein, internalized sexism and misogyny also affects our dating/mating rituals in ways that can be concerning. And, I am not referring to what happens in private between consenting adults. I am referring to what occurs in a public arena.

To me, there is no difference between a cis male publicly calling attention to his penis, wanting it worshipped, and enumerating on what he wishes to do with it, and someone in this community doing the same thing. To me, they are both examples of women being used as sex objects for sexual gratification and titillation.

Some people may like that, tho I am wondering if they like and/or are aware of what that attitude conveys. Women are not one dimensional beings. And one can easily appreciate all women are and flirt with them without being sexist about it.

Invisibility is an area we need to rethink. It seems to me, many of us, for different reasons, feel invisible to our own people. Yet rather than rally around "invisibility" as an issue for our community to grapple with, we get sidetracked by trying to decide who has the greater right to be pissy about it. The common demoninator here is "invisibility" not id's. Yet, there is a tendency to make people feel more invisible by not acknowledging what they are feeling and why they are feeling it.

Dee also raises an interesting point about how she wishes to be seen and how she chooses to partner. Makes sense to me and I applaud her independent thinking. And, I am sure, on the whole, it will be well received.

However, if I as a female butch say I will only date women who exclusively date other women because this reflects who I am and what I am all about, will it be received with the same respect?

[BullDog]

Transwomen most certainly do face a lot of oppression, sexism, violence etc. They often get the double whammy of being treated in some of the most extreme forms of sexism I have ever seen combined with extreme forms of transphobia. So transwomen certainly do face a lot.

So I am not comparing my situation. Yet to say that butch women do not face violence and sexism as a woman is just ridiculous. In fact just because someone uses He or Hy online doesn't mean they aren't going to out in the world either. They face the same things too.

The idea that just because someone uses the pronoun he or hy online means they are more butch and/or more masculine is a big huge joke to me and anyone who knows or meets butches in the real world will know that it isn't true. Yet it continues to get perpetuated.

Unfortunately some of us have been saying the same things for way more than 2 years.

[girl_dee]

[QUOTE=Kobi;629689][COLOR="Navy"]

<snip>
Dee also raises an interesting point about how she wishes to be seen and how she chooses to partner. Makes sense to me and I applaud her independent thinking. And, I am sure, on the whole, it will be well received.

However, if I as a female butch say I will only date women who exclusively date other women because this reflects who I am and what I am all about, will it be received with the same respect?




</snip>


Thanks Kobi and i didn't even realize i was in the butch zone, but i do love this sort of thread because i want to learn about others.

Kobi, i imagine your statement is the same as me saying for ME, i only wish to date women who do not want to become a transman or pass as a man. i feel like that reflects who i am and what i am all about. Lot's of wonderful people in the world, but i am only attracted to certain traits... i imagine some may find that offensive?

[Bleu]

Originally Posted by Cajun_dee

Speaking from this femmes POV it frustrates me a bit to have to (sometimes repeatedly) correct people that my partner is a she. She does not want to be a he, never has. They seem shocked at that, probably because she is butch. i want to be with a she, i am myself more comfortable with that so we fit well.

i have never wanted to emulate the life of straight folks, i don't want to look like them, i don't want to have sex like them and i don't want to be referred to as MAN/WOMAN..i don't want it to be expected that i want to be with a *male* ID'd partner.

CD,
Thank you for articulating thoughs and feelings I've had myself.

For me:
I would date a male id'd woman. One that desires too be called he, I find this more difficult for me, but would personally not limit myself by this alone.

xo,
~Bleu