The Strong Butch Female/Woman in a Patriarchal World

[BullDog]

Metro, I'm not fighting anyone who doesn't claim woman and don't think only women can fight against sexism. I've also never said anyone didn't have a right to fully embrace what felt right to them more than I did.

I think I am weary of all the gender talk for now. I am not seeing any progress, and I see women continue to be de-valued in our queer communities.

peace,
Bully

ETA: I understand for you gender is not political. However, we will never be accepted for our genders without social change.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Metro, I'm not fighting anyone who doesn't claim woman and don't think only women can fight against sexism. I've also never said anyone didn't have a right to fully embrace what felt right to them more than I did.

I think I am weary of all the gender talk for now. I am not seeing any progress, and I see women continue to be de-valued in our queer communities.

peace,
Bully

ETA: I understand for you gender is not political. However, we will never be accepted for our genders without social change.

And I don't disagree with any of this, I was responding to your inference that claiming other genders didn't make women any freer... and your relating it all in with the fight on sexism. I guess I assumed you were engaging with it.

Metro
*who is also pretty tired of talking about gender I'd like to see this thread continue in the spirit it was intended with or without me... doesn't matter... if not it's just another opportunity lost*

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

And I don't disagree with any of this, I was responding to your inference that claiming other genders didn't make women any freer... and your relating it all in with the fight on sexism. I guess I assumed you were engaging with it.

Metro
*who is also pretty tired of talking about gender I'd like to see this thread continue in the spirit it was intended with or without me... doesn't matter... if it doesn't it's just another opportunity lost*

Metro I wasn't making that inference. I would try to explain, but I am a bit talked out at the moment. Peace.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Metro I wasn't making that inference. I would try to explain, but I am a bit talked out at the moment. Peace.

Ok Bull... no need to explain, I know I can take you at your word and I'll just re-read a little.

Thanx,
Metro

[BullDog]

Thanks Metro.

[BullDog]

How come when it comes to "fighting the binary" only woman is abandoned as gender? If the man/woman binary is so damaging why isn't man as gender being discarded by gender conscious males as well? I realize we are a community comprised mainly of female bodied people. However, I haven't heard of large numbers of gay men abandoning the gender man. Man is also used very commonly by FTMS as their gender. I don't see significant numbers of lesbians and femmes abandoning woman as gender. Just among butches. Yet women can embrace masculinity as much as anyone.

In the butch femme community, as well as queer community at large, I see a proliferation of masculine identities but not so much with feminine identities. When femmes do try to claim various identities for themselves they are often questioned about it and not given a whole lot of support.

So everyone should claim gender as they see fit but the pattern remains- more distancing from woman. Man? Not so much. My rhetorical question is, how is this "fighting the binary" when it is so one sided?

[Jett]

Originally Posted by BullDog

How come when it comes to "fighting the binary" only woman is abandoned as gender? If the man/woman binary is so damaging why isn't man as gender being discarded by gender conscious males as well? I realize we are a community comprised mainly of female bodied people. However, I haven't heard of large numbers of gay men abandoning the gender man. Man is also used very commonly by FTMS as their gender. I don't see significant numbers of lesbians and femmes abandoning woman as gender. Just among butches. Yet women can embrace masculinity as much as anyone.

In the butch femme community, as well as queer community at large, I see a proliferation of masculine identities but not so much with feminine identities. When femmes do try to claim various identities for themselves they are often questioned about it and not given a whole lot of support.

So everyone should claim gender as they see fit but the pattern remains- more distancing from woman. Man? Not so much. My rhetorical question is, how is this "fighting the binary" when it is so one sided?

Personally... and I can only speak for myself... the- evolution- of- my- gender- had- nothing- to- do- with- fighting- the- binary. I was what I am before I ever heard of or thought about "the binary".

I'm fighting the binary now because my spot (gender) in life is in direct contrast with it and it's (the binary) damaging to me and people I care about as well.

As far as it being predominantly born females embracing other gender... I've never seen that... as far as I've seen there's more than plenty of male born Trans, MTF Androgynes, Pangender, even Flamers... etc.

Hardly a butch phenomenon so I don't know how to address that. Anyway like I said I'm tired of talking about this subject in the context of Other Genders.

And with that I'll vacate and let the conversation go where it may... but I needed to say that.

Peace out,
Metro
P.S. I (personally) didn't "abandon" the gender of woman... I simply made a correction to a gender that was assigned to me by a binary society that still can't see the possibilities of more than two genders... and didn't see my possibilities.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by BullDog

How come when it comes to "fighting the binary" only woman is abandoned as gender? If the man/woman binary is so damaging why isn't man as gender being discarded by gender conscious males as well? I realize we are a community comprised mainly of female bodied people. However, I haven't heard of large numbers of gay men abandoning the gender man. Man is also used very commonly by FTMS as their gender. I don't see significant numbers of lesbians and femmes abandoning woman as gender. Just among butches. Yet women can embrace masculinity as much as anyone.

In the butch femme community, as well as queer community at large, I see a proliferation of masculine identities but not so much with feminine identities. When femmes do try to claim various identities for themselves they are often questioned about it and not given a whole lot of support.

So everyone should claim gender as they see fit but the pattern remains- more distancing from woman. Man? Not so much. My rhetorical question is, how is this "fighting the binary" when it is so one sided?

Something that strikes me here (and does in general, especially as I have been involved in the B-F community) is that we do not look at this fight in terms of MtF's as equal warriors! Or, is this simply an extension of dominance and superiority? Sure, I see that the numbers of MtF's identifying as femme are much lower, but I just can't see where we get off that we are so damn gender conscious when we fail to recognize this part of the LGBTI community. I view this as very sexist and just more of the same relegation of the female to just not as important. Interesting, as the stats (as well as they can be gathered), point to higher numbers of MtF's overall.

As much as I embrace gender theory and see it as a means to unlock so many contraints (and personally, do see myself as Other gendered, 3rd gendered in many ways, pangendered is one to explore - all of which are not transgendered what is, will remain), I still see the same old man's world around me.

As a butch, I continue to fight not having what is female about me recognized and respected (by both butches & femmes). There are threads that continue to dismiss me as female and only consider what is masculine about me. And those that measure my worth as a butch by what fucking kind of underwear I wear!!

What really makes me nuts is the acceptance of stereotypes of men as being positive masculinity! These representations don't look like the men I know, love and respect. Thank-the-fucking-Goddesses!

I wish we would get back to what we experience as butches within the context of being female. I believe there are some areas of this experience that are very unique and just as injustices/discrimination of transgendered people need to be recognized, so do these variables.

Female is devalued at large and the female butch is devalued within the queer world as well.

have to add that I also see that many TG men here are actually much more aware of sexism than quite a few female-identified butches. One thought I have about this is that maybe it is because of their transitioning and all of the varied groups, organizations, even classes they are exposed to. So many of these experiences could expose sexism.