Third or Other Gender Butch

[DapperButch]

Hey, Met.

Third gendered/transgendered butch here, weighing in.

I don't have time to get into much at the moment, but I will be back to post.

I just wanted to acknowledge you and you beginning this thread.

P.S. Actually, I just thought of a possible discussion. Is there a difference between a butch who defines as third gendered versus a butch who defines as transgender? Are they similar, yet different?

Are people speaking to one's sex (male/female) when they call themselves a TG Butch, yet speaking to gender (woman/man) when they call themselves a third gendered butch?

What about a genderqueer butch? Or is that just another term for thrid gendered or transgendered?

[DapperButch]

Ok, so I hit the submit button by mistake...

Here are my quick thoughts:

I am a third gendered butch because I am not a woman or a man (gender).

I define as a transgendered butch because I view my sex as somewhere between or both male and female. But, I still acknowledge my bio sex as female (if that makes any sense).

I do not define as genderqueer because the term has just never reasonated with me, plus I am not even clear on what is the accepted definition is of the term.

Before I was really involved in the online B/F communities, or learned much about gender through reading, I used the term "genderless" to describe myself (in my own head, to myself). I'm not sure what I think about that now.

Anyway, those are my quick thoughts for now. I am looking forward to this thread.

[AtLast]

I think I fit somewhere in other , biologically, as a female-bodied butch. Which is comfortable for me. My gender remains female, however, I have a difficult time with the traditional binary as it is too constraining for everyone. 3rd-gendered is something I have to give a lot of credence to.

I think that my being lesbian might relate to my choosing to refer to myself as female in terms of gender (it is just an interwoven state of being for me). Been thinking a lot about this and just know that part of my identification as female has to do with my absolute connection to female to female bodied sexuality. No, these are not the same (gender/sexuality), but for me they are very personally interrelated.

Being a more masculine female and the processes and dynamics of being with another female (of the femme variety, which includes a range), is simply hot and satisfying, sexually and in everyday interactions of being relational. I love how my being a female-bodied butch is appreciated by a femme partner.

I absolutely support every personal distinction of gender (and queerness) that comes out of this community. Yanno... that diversity thang! And I so wish that gender fluidity and the multi-dimensional nature of both gender and sexuality would just become the norm!

Taking stock in cross-cultural perspectives of both gender and sexuality has been the most freeing experience for me as a butch and a human being. So much in US/Western thought (other than Native American explanations and spirituality) simply doesn't fit for me … and a whole hell of a lot of other people!

Finding peace, balance and harmony with all of this is paramount for me. Then, again, that is what I always seek in life.

[Jess]

Just my personal observations along my journey:


In the 80's, the big thing for "most" ( not all) lesbians/ queer women/ dykes was to be androgynous.

Main Entry: an·drog·y·nous
Pronunciation: \an-ˈdrä-jə-nəs\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin androgynus hermaphrodite, from Greek androgynos, from andr- + gynē woman — more at queen
Date: 1651
1 : having the characteristics or nature of both male and female
2 a : neither specifically feminine nor masculine <the androgynous pronoun them> b : suitable to or for either sex <androgynous clothing>
3 : having traditional male and female roles obscured or reversed <an androgynous marriage>
— an·drog·y·nous·ly adverb
— an·drog·y·ny \-nē\ noun


Then, it seemed a "reclaiming" of the Butch-femme dynamic surfaced in the mid to late 90's. Greatly visible at first in the Leather community(this was also about the same time BDSM enthusiasts became such a "trend" so it makes sense) , where Butch and Femme never really died out. Along with this resurfacing came drag kings as a phenom and the popularity of our b-f websites exploded.

Transsexual folks came out more and more gaining acceptance ( not always, of course but moreso than ever in the past) and the terms transgendered and genderqueer and genderfuct became hot words in our community.

In the last 20- 25 years along "our" evolution we have been knocking down walls so hard and fast it is hard for us to even keep up with our own sledgehammers.

We have had threads/ discussions/ arguments about inclusion, definition, gender theory, binary alignment, antiquated terminology. These discussions may go on forever, LOL! I see them as necessary for anyone going along a path that veers from any "norm" that society has perpetuated.

Most of my life I have felt other. There are times when I thought I would transition. I still am not completely comfortable in my own skin, however I am more aligned to the natural fluctuation of energies or mentalities that occur within me than I am in making a surgical/ chemical change. I am never faced with whom I think should be in my mirror. Sometimes it is distressing, sometimes it is kinda fun.Sometimes, I think I just spend way too much time thinking about it instead of just "being".

Good topic. I am more comfortable discussing this here than the "female/ woman identified butch" thread. I don't know why. This just seems a more natural discussion and for some reason less re-hashing.

A great many science fiction stories speak of a time when the human race becomes androgynous or even asexual. It is interesting to see the great number of folks speaking to feeling "other gendered".

Thanks Metropolis!

[Daywalker]

A quick note, as I subscribe to read more:


As far back as I can remember, I have always viewed my gender through
my mind and spirit...not through my body. For life moments when the physical
me is called up, such as intimacy...well, my 'pleasure zones' are where they
are (gawd I hope this is gonna make sense) kinda like a belly button. Some have
'inn-ees' and some have 'out-ees'. My 'zones' have been physically assigned
as an 'inn-ee', but still...I do not relate to being female...or male.


Will I utilize these zones and not get uncomfortable? Yes. Because I still
do not connect with my physical being as a gender. This is not a denial,
this is not due to an adverse experience, this is not due to anything...other
than my mind and spirit being content, and it just feels as though this
has been my natural state of being, even as a child.


My attraction and preference has always been a natural state for me
as well...in that it has only been for women. I am sure there are folks
who relate just as I do, that have a natural attraction for their opposite
sex. Another perspective that I was privy to growing up...that sexual
preference is not defined by gender identification.


I'd like to read along and jump in here and there,
but of course...first I'd like to thank Met for starting this thread.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Hey, Met.

Third gendered/transgendered butch here, weighing in.

I don't have time to get into much at the moment, but I will be back to post.

I just wanted to acknowledge you and you beginning this thread.

P.S. Actually, I just thought of a possible discussion. Is there a difference between a butch who defines as third gendered versus a butch who defines as transgender? Are they similar, yet different?

Are people speaking to one's sex (male/female) when they call themselves a TG Butch, yet speaking to gender (woman/man) when they call themselves a third gendered butch?

What about a genderqueer butch? Or is that just another term for thrid gendered or transgendered?

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Ok, so I hit the submit button by mistake...

Here are my quick thoughts:

I am a third gendered butch because I am not a woman or a man (gender).

I define as a transgendered butch because I view my sex as somewhere between or both male and female. But, I still acknowledge my bio sex as female (if that makes any sense).

I do not define as genderqueer because the term has just never reasonated with me, plus I am not even clear on what is the accepted definition is of the term.

I don't have a lot of time either Dapper, but you've brought up a good point.

For me being third gender, I don't think of myself as transgender so much, mostly because I feel myself as being of both sexes/genders... and that to me feels quite different than what I understand to be most TG experiences of feeling like the "opposite gender/sex in mind than in one is in body".

Third gender to me is difficult to explain, b/c in it like you, I'm not a woman and I'm not a man (gender)... but find my myself both male and female... and though I acknowledge my body as female and that's fine, I do tweak my body (bind etc. though I'm small chested already) to better fit my gender.

Anyway, to me that's a fairly big distinction, and why I (personally) separate transgender and third gender personally for myself... though I do know a couple peeps who do like you ID as TG as well in it.

So I go with the "similar, yet different" option... with overlap...

As far as genderqueer I think of it kind of an umbrella term and works for many TG and Third G peeps, but I don't use it myself because of that vagueness.

Originally Posted by Dapperbutch

Before I was really involved in the online B/F communities, or learned much about gender through reading, I used the term "genderless" to describe myself (in my own head, to myself). I'm not sure what I think about that now.

Anyway, those are my quick thoughts for now. I am looking forward to this thread.

Right, genderless or gender neutral generally means being of an indifferential gender, and may feel gender "empty" and wear ambiguous, or gender vague clothing... think the gender neutral lesbian feminist type that emerged in the 70's and 80's.

That's not the same thing I've seen at all with most modern third gender (or pangender's Androgyne's) peeps or especially of the butch variety who consider themselves Third G or Other.

I know I feel quite the opposite of genderless, more like genderfull, having strong gender traits of both sexes psychologically and outwardly very strong gender markers (male) in my clothing and mannerisms.

Ok, have to run... pls forgive the loose exchanges of sex with gender but it's hard to navigate the subject with a language not set up to accommodate additional gender/s.

[Jett]

Just a random after thought to my previous post... I think some distinction may also lay in that Third Gender people generally don't want or like being acknowledged as " women" or a "man"... as by it's very nature it is a different gender altogether.

Am I making sense or just repeating myself... lol.

BBL

Metropolis

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Just a random after thought to my previous post... I think some distinction may also lay in that Third Gender people generally don't want or like being acknowledged as " women" or a "man"... as by it's very nature it is a different gender altogether.

Am I making sense or just repeating myself... lol.

BBL

Metropolis

I don't know if you are repeating yourself, but I know I said the same thing (so maybe I repeated you, first!)

Yes, I have always seen the MAIN definition of third gendered as a person who does not define as a man or as a woman...that is my understanding as to where the term came from/the purpose of the term.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

I don't know if you are repeating yourself, but I know I said the same thing (so maybe I repeated you, first!)

Yes, I have always seen the MAIN definition of third gendered as a person who does not define as a man or as a woman...that is my understanding as to where the term came from/the purpose of the term.

Ha yep... you did. Anyway I guess in that it has a fairly distinct meaning, of course being relative to the individual how that plays out and specific details.

So I suppose in my own head (on whether it's TG or not) is that it depends on the person. Kind of like genderqueer, TG seems a fairly umbrella term.

I have identified as TG in the past, but I've found that peeps assume I want to be recognized as a man by doing so. So maybe the only reason I don't now is because Third Gender (or Other etc.) seems to be a clearer definition of the specific gender for me.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

For me being third gender, I don't think of myself as transgender so much, mostly because I feel myself as being of both sexes/genders... and that to me feels quite different than what I understand to be most TG experiences of feeling like the "opposite gender/sex in mind than in one is in body".


Anyway, to me that's a fairly big distinction, and why I (personally) separate transgender and third gender personally for myself... though I do know a couple peeps who do like you ID as TG as well in it.

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I guess my thoughts on whether it's TG are, in a nutshell, that depends on the person. Kind of like genderqueer, TG seems a fairly umbrella term and depending on how one experiences third gender they may or may not feel the need to use it.

I have identified as TG in the past, but I've found that peeps assume I want to be recognized as a man by doing so. So maybe the only reason I don't now is because Third Gender (or Other etc.) seems to be a clearer definition of the specific gender for me.

Yes, I understand what you are saying when you say that using TG (TG Butch, I assume you meant, maybe?, not just TG?), creates a thinking in people that you see yourself as a man or maybe male. This has been my concern by using this label myself. People have moved away from the term transsexual it seems, and transgender is often used in place (even though the first defines a person as viewing themselves as the opposite sex, and the other has been defined as an umbrella term, which are two different things, obviously).

I use the TG Butch label b/c I guess I want to get across the "not male and not female"/"male and female" identity. Third gendered to me just means not a man and not a woman, so that does not seem to be enough (for me). Make sense?

I actually wrote on the dash site, maybe a couple of years ago, my frustration in there not being a term to describe my type of butch, as TG Butch was really misleading (due to how transgender is commonly assumed to mean transsexual nowadays), but since I have found nothing else, I have stuck with it.

Sorry if the above was confusing...I was just rambling out some thoughts, here...

Side note: Similarly, I use but, really don't like, the pronoun "hy". But since I am in the middle, "he", nor "she" fits, so I feel stuck with it! lol

[Words]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Just a random after thought to my previous post... I think some distinction may also lay in that Third Gender people generally don't want or like being acknowledged as " women" or a "man"... as by it's very nature it is a different gender altogether.

Am I making sense or just repeating myself... lol.

BBL

Metropolis

The application form for the first full-time job for which B. applied here in the UK had three options for gender: male, female, and transgendered. W/we thought it was wonderful for the very same reason you've mentioned above.

Great thread

Words

[Apocalipstic]

Great thread Met!

I do find it interesting that these discussions always seem to be Butch-Masculine...of course understanding that you are Butch, so you would see things from that perspective...and not to in any way take away from the things you deal with day to day....

However,

I do wonder if there are any other Femmes who in their heads id as masculine in some ways no matter how we might look on the outside.

There are parts of me that are very masculine (in my head and behavior) and some parts (mostly appearance) that are feminine. I have said before that if I were to transition I would look like Truman Capote, Laugh. Not that I want to transition, but I can't say that it has never crossed my mind.

Is this too much of a derail?

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Words

The application form for the first full-time job for which B. applied here in the UK had three options for gender: male, female, and transgendered. W/we thought it was wonderful for the very same reason you've mentioned above.

Great thread

Words

I recently went to The Lady Doctor, and on their application, they also had a box for "Trans"

I was both relieved and dismayed at the same time. I was relieved (happy actually) to see the box, however, I was unable to actually mark the box, because trans-people aren't covered by the county insurance I was using to have this particular procedure (which, btw, had nothing to do with any trans-related issues). Hence, had I actually checked the box, I wouldn't have been covered...nor could I GET covered again, because it would have been part of my 'permanent record'.

So, while I'm glad people are actually becoming more aware...trans-folks still have to be incredibly cautious.


Dylan
But that's a whole 'nother conversation.

[Apocalipstic]

Thanks for your post Dylan and for answerng my question in addition to At Lasts!

So yes there are other Femme who ID as GenderQueer or who stuggle with the pervasive thought that only butches and FtM's suffer with gender identity.

Relived,

Jen

PS. That sucks that if you are Trans you can't use county insurance. Impressed that your county has insurance at all, but sad that for politics sake, there had to be a whole group of people left out....As usual.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I recently went to The Lady Doctor, and on their application, they also had a box for "Trans"

I was both relieved and dismayed at the same time. I was relieved (happy actually) to see the box, however, I was unable to actually mark the box, because trans-people aren't covered by the county insurance I was using to have this particular procedure (which, btw, had nothing to do with any trans-related issues). Hence, had I actually checked the box, I wouldn't have been covered...nor could I GET covered again, because it would have been part of my 'permanent record'.

So, while I'm glad people are actually becoming more aware...trans-folks still have to be incredibly cautious.


Dylan
But that's a whole 'nother conversation.

Seems like a trick question to me!

I am glad too, that your county has something to offer TG people, but, ugh... thinking how many TG people could check the trans box not knowing these consequences given how confusing program small print can be!

I know I am always happy to see trans being included for gender on apps, etc., but here we have the ultimate catch-22. Also, I want a box for other!

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Just a random after thought to my previous post... I think some distinction may also lay in that Third Gender people generally don't want or like being acknowledged as " women" or a "man"... as by it's very nature it is a different gender altogether.

Am I making sense or just repeating myself... lol.

BBL

Metropolis

I know this is going to sound a bit wierd to others but it's not to me...

I've always said that lots of people out there have more than one gender. I'm one of those. And one of my genders just don't fit in "woman" - it fits in feminine. It's non-female, non-male, but feminine. Sometimes when I get very body disphoric, I have trouble understanding why I don't fit into my own body the way I feel I should.

It used to be horrific at times. Now just slightly off-putting and annoying.

I wouldn't call it a third gender. It's it's own thing and plenty of people feel that way sometimes. Frankly, half the planet has probably felt that wierd seperation of self from body. in a "this isn't quite me" way.

Perhaps it's because of disociating, perhaps it's because of body dysmorphia from eating disorders once out of control. Who knows. Doesn't matter much. I don't hate my body, I actually quite like it - it's just sometimes isn't speaking the same language as me.

however, to the mainstream, out there, my femininity and my woman's body are "aligned" so it mostly doesn't make sense to a lot of people. Meh. Fine, I'm the only one that really needs to get it.

But I'm not butch so this doesn't quite fit in here. But thought I'd just toss something of my own in anyway.

for me, being a woman doesn't work opposite to my other gender. Much like to bicycles that ride next to each other aren't going to get in each others way or risk a crash - but still each bicycle can be a completely different ride.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

for me, being a woman doesn't work opposite to my other gender. Much like to bicycles that ride next to each other aren't going to get in each others way or risk a crash - but still each bicycle can be a completely different ride.

This certainly resonates with me. Being a woman in no way works against me being butch or masculine.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by BullDog

This certainly resonates with me. Being a woman in no way works against me being butch or masculine.

It doesn't for me either, which is something I treasure. I also know that part of why I feel this way is because of living in a time when gender dynamics have opened-up and there is a place of comfort for me to have what is masculine and remain female and a woman. I accept the 3rdG and just feeling like a Female-Other. I guess it is elastic for me and freeing to have this mix. I already discussed the fusion in all of this for me with my lesbian sexuality, it really is about woman to woman for me. There is a spiritual balance for me as well and a connection to the archtypal woman, or The Great Mother that simply remders me female.

I do prefer being referred to she, her as far as pronouns, but it is not as big of a deal as it used to be. Again, I believe, due to the multi-facets of gender as we have come to know today. Not something I get angry about because I know I present as both masculine and feminine. Although, as the years have passed, my exterior seems more masculine.. yanno, menopause! Although, my body has always been more of what we traditionally consider masculine.

I just like my body as it is and am comfortable in it. But, I certainly get the struggles that other butches have with this. And I certainly know butches that deal with these issues in a multitude of ways.

I also recognize Femme as a gender as well as Butch (although not for myself).

It feels like that for most of us in this discussion that the traditional binary of male and female is the culprit. But, I feel that these have been expanded and do not remain as they were. Plus, other gender identifications are available to us all.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by BullDog

This certainly resonates with me. Being a woman in no way works against me being butch or masculine.

I was kinda waiting for someone to point that out for them as well. So thank you.

Inks see it the same way. sometimes one her genders gets in an argument with her *body* but never gets in an argument with her other gender. I expereince that. The body that goes with my femme gender it a bit off the mark. But that may be my own baggage with my own conceptions of masculine (for lack of a better word. there is no word for it and that one is a sucky second to what I mean) femininity - perhaps androgenised hyper-femininity? Nevermind I can't explain it. Anyway, inks has a good friendship between her two genders. Maybe one rolls it's eyes a bit at the other on occation but that's about it.

but for both of us, we do have problems with the body matching up to the brain self-picture on occation, but it's not about genders not aligning with each other. I think anyones mulitplicity of gender can have a fine team action going on, rather than polerised bad marriages. Meaning... sorry... it doesn't *have* to be opposites nor does it *have* to be intrusive and cross purposes with each other.

I do get that for some it is. I'm not saying they need to "fly right, jack and pull up your boots straps." all I mean is, more than one gender doesn't mean an internal dogfight *has* to be the result.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by BullDog

This certainly resonates with me. Being a woman in no way works against me being butch or masculine.

You're right, and your identifying with being a woman I don't feel is has any impact on your masculinity or butch-ness either.

Just as my not being woman gendered but GQ/3rd isn't dependent on my being butch or my masculinity (or vice versa). GQ/TG/3rdG gender people have all different kinds of incarnations in life, different identities, sexes and sexual orientations.

Glad you kind of sideways pointed out something I wanted to say, in that the way I experience my gender it isn't born of or reliant on any comparison to my being Butch or masculinity...