Third or Other Gender Butch

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

For me being third gender, I don't think of myself as transgender so much, mostly because I feel myself as being of both sexes/genders... and that to me feels quite different than what I understand to be most TG experiences of feeling like the "opposite gender/sex in mind than in one is in body".


Anyway, to me that's a fairly big distinction, and why I (personally) separate transgender and third gender personally for myself... though I do know a couple peeps who do like you ID as TG as well in it.

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I guess my thoughts on whether it's TG are, in a nutshell, that depends on the person. Kind of like genderqueer, TG seems a fairly umbrella term and depending on how one experiences third gender they may or may not feel the need to use it.

I have identified as TG in the past, but I've found that peeps assume I want to be recognized as a man by doing so. So maybe the only reason I don't now is because Third Gender (or Other etc.) seems to be a clearer definition of the specific gender for me.

Yes, I understand what you are saying when you say that using TG (TG Butch, I assume you meant, maybe?, not just TG?), creates a thinking in people that you see yourself as a man or maybe male. This has been my concern by using this label myself. People have moved away from the term transsexual it seems, and transgender is often used in place (even though the first defines a person as viewing themselves as the opposite sex, and the other has been defined as an umbrella term, which are two different things, obviously).

I use the TG Butch label b/c I guess I want to get across the "not male and not female"/"male and female" identity. Third gendered to me just means not a man and not a woman, so that does not seem to be enough (for me). Make sense?

I actually wrote on the dash site, maybe a couple of years ago, my frustration in there not being a term to describe my type of butch, as TG Butch was really misleading (due to how transgender is commonly assumed to mean transsexual nowadays), but since I have found nothing else, I have stuck with it.

Sorry if the above was confusing...I was just rambling out some thoughts, here...

Side note: Similarly, I use but, really don't like, the pronoun "hy". But since I am in the middle, "he", nor "she" fits, so I feel stuck with it! lol

[Gryph]

I go by two-spirit as a way of denoting my gender. I am the best and worst of both(in our binary world) in one body. Pronouns to me don't matter, I will and do answer to both he and she and not think anything of it, that is part of being two-spirit.

I came to the conclusion years ago that I kind of like this body and I have no need to bind or anything like that. Besides it would be a bit hard, my tits are rather ample, its a family trait. So I dress in male clothes, except for the sports bras that I wear for work and other then winter, I keep my hair fairly short. A quick look and I get tagged as a butch all the time, which is not a big deal for me.

[AtLast]

Got my Census Question are today.. no place for other-female ....

And I am having difficulty with TG only representing male/men/masculine because a MtF is a transgendered individual. But, I do get why many of us here that feell other (including other-female or other-male or 3rd-gendered do not use TG because it always seems to get out into the male pile! That I] default [/I]is quite deeply ingrained in our world, isn't it? And goes to sexism and male privilege. This is what drives me crazy as well as just being able to find a non-binary defined term.

This is a huge part of why I find language (English) and the lack of a cross-cultural approach to be so damn restrictive!

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Got my Census Question are today.. no place for other-female ....

And I am having difficulty with TG only representing male/men/masculine because a MtF is a transgendered individual.But, I do get why many of us here that feell other (including other-female or other-male or 3rd-gendered do not use TG because it always seems to get out into the male pile! That I] default [/I]is quite deeply ingrained in our world, isn't it? And goes to sexism and male privilege. This is what drives me crazy as well as just being able to find a non-binary defined term.

This is a huge part of why I find language (English) and the lack of a cross-cultural approach to be so damn restrictive!

AtLast,

I can say that for me I am using the term TG to only refer to male/men/masculine because this thread is about the third gendered or other gendered butch and is not about transgenderism in general (or transgenderism at all in most of the posts I have seen).

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I can see *how* TG *might* "get out into the male pile", but I don't think that's how it's used within the TG community as a whole

While general society *might* see it as a "well, if you're not woman than you're man" type o' deal, I know I personally don't use it that way.

One reason for my not using it that way is because it would automatically exclude femmes who ID as TG

I think in a strictly binary world, TG would probably be used as a "well if you're not woman then you're man" type of thing, but I think just about everyone on this site acknowledges the binary is bullshit.

In my world, TG isn't just about man/woman or male/female...it's about ANYONE who steps out of the binary. Most of the people I talk to who frequent TG conferences, conversations, meet ups, etc feel the same way.

Femme is/can be a gender just as much as butch (or any other gender)...to turn TG into binary excludes shit-tons (that's Dylan-metric) of people from the TG movement, and turns it into a trans-sexed issue. It also asks people to once again conform to binary ideas...which is exactly what many TG people refuse to do in the first place.

Dylan

Originally Posted by DapperButch

AtLast,

I can say that for me I am using the term TG to only refer to male/men/masculine because this thread is about the third gendered or other gendered butch and is not about transgenderism in general (or transgenderism at all in most of the posts I have seen).

Dapper & Dylan and Met:

I see where all of you are coming from. Ah, I like the shit-tons metric!

I have to say that in real time, I also run into the TG as male only phenomenon too. But, this seems to be more within the very narrow lesbian community that I think, does continue to fight inclusion (and support) of transgendered people. They tend to only see this in terms of male transition. God, I want to slap them ('cause, yanno, MtF's aren't really women like us)!

My main reason for bringing this up has more to do with a couple of MtF's (that claim femme) I know as well as an intergendered cousin that is female (what she claimed). And my feelings about female devaluation.

But, yes, I see that the thread is addressing butch phenomena.

Also, it kind of sux that many butches that view themselves as other or 3rd-gendered, feel as they are posting here in terms of the assumptions that get made right here in our own community.

I think TG as an umbrella term is what gets this all confused... as well as just a lack of knowledge about gender in general. I know, I have to continually take a look at the literature.

Yes.... we end up back in the binary and this is crazy-making!! And frustrating.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Dapper & Dylan and Met:

I see where all of you are coming from. Ah, I like the shit-tons metric!

I have to say that in real time, I also run into the TG as male only phenomenon too. But, this seems to be more within the very narrow lesbian community that I think, does continue to fight inclusion (and support) of transgendered people. They tend to only see this in terms of male transition. God, I want to slap them ('cause, yanno, MtF's aren't really women like us)!

My main reason for bringing this up has more to do with a couple of MtF's (that claim femme) I know as well as an intergendered cousin that is female (what she claimed). And my feelings about female devaluation.

But, yes, I see that the thread is addressing butch phenomena.

Also, it kind of sux that many butches that view themselves as other or 3rd-gendered, feel as they are posting here in terms of the assumptions that get made right here in our own community.

I think TG as an umbrella term is what gets this all confused... as well as just a lack of knowledge about gender in general. I know, I have to continually take a look at the literature.

Yes.... we end up back in the binary and this is crazy-making!! And frustrating.

I have a number of very close femme friends who ID as cis-female, but who consider their gender femme...they consider themselves transgender, and have a helluva time (even in and sometimes mostly in queer space) fighting for their space in the TG world.

I truly believe they have a harder time than butches explaining their gender, because it's always assumed they mean they're trans-sexed as opposed to genderly outside the binary. Most people can't fathom how femme is a gender when you ID as cis-female, and your gender presentation falls in line with stereotypical ideas of femininity (woman), etc. I think femmes are continually left out of this conversation or dismissed, because their gender doesn't necessarily fall in line with limited binary thinking...i.e. femme isn't seen as any type of 'crossing over' or any other limited definition most people use to define 'transgender'. It's commonly (and erroneously) just assumed that 'femme' falls in line with cultural norms of woman/female/femininity, so "what? What's the big deal? There's no struggle...only butches 'struggle'." Which I then think leads back to the idea that in order to 'qualify' as transgender, One has to want 'the opposite'...which then leads back to binary thinking...which then leads back to stereotypes...which then leads back to Butches Want To Be Men Syndrome and Femmes' Invisibility.

I agree it's incredibly frustrating...it's even more ridiculously frustrating when it happens in queer space among people who claim to *know better* than to fall for binary thinking

I think the term transgender was *once* used as a term primarily for trans-sexed individuals, however, I really see a pulling away from this thinking. I mean, in some conversations I see transgender and transsexed used interchangeably, but in real time conversations, I see a big pulling away from this interchangeability. I see a lot of pulling away in some online communities also. Basically, I see the most interchangeability in conversations had among completely clueless straight people or in very basic definitions.

My real time groups of transgendered friends/acquaintances include butches, femmes, folks on hormones who just want to present differently (but who have no intention of changing their sex), third genders, genderfucts, genderqueers, pangender, zies, two-sprits, and everything in between.


Avoiding Work,
Dylan

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Got my Census Question are today.. no place for other-female ....

And I am having difficulty with TG only representing male/men/masculine because a MtF is a transgendered individual. But, I do get why many of us here that feell other (including other-female or other-male or 3rd-gendered do not use TG because it always seems to get out into the male pile! That I] default [/I]is quite deeply ingrained in our world, isn't it? And goes to sexism and male privilege. This is what drives me crazy as well as just being able to find a non-binary defined term.

This is a huge part of why I find language (English) and the lack of a cross-cultural approach to be so damn restrictive!

I can see *how* TG *might* "get out into the male pile", but I don't think that's how it's used within the TG community as a whole

While general society *might* see it as a "well, if you're not woman than you're man" type o' deal, I know I personally don't use it that way.

One reason for my not using it that way is because it would automatically exclude femmes who ID as TG

I think in a strictly binary world, TG would probably be used as a "well if you're not woman then you're man" type of thing, but I think just about everyone on this site acknowledges the binary is bullshit.

In my world, TG isn't just about man/woman or male/female...it's about ANYONE who steps out of the binary. Most of the people I talk to who frequent TG conferences, conversations, meet ups, etc feel the same way.

Femme is/can be a gender just as much as butch (or any other gender)...to turn TG into binary excludes shit-tons (that's Dylan-metric) of people from the TG movement, and turns it into a trans-sexed issue. It also asks people to once again conform to binary ideas...which is exactly what many TG people refuse to do in the first place.


Dylan

[Jett]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Got my Census Question are today.. no place for other-female ....

And I am having difficulty with TG only representing male/men/masculine because a MtF is a transgendered individual. But, I do get why many of us here that feell other (including other-female or other-male or 3rd-gendered do not use TG because it always seems to get out into the male pile! That I] default [/I]is quite deeply ingrained in our world, isn't it? And goes to sexism and male privilege. This is what drives me crazy as well as just being able to find a non-binary defined term.

This is a huge part of why I find language (English) and the lack of a cross-cultural approach to be so damn restrictive!

Yeah I'm not quite getting this.

Because of "butch" direction of this thread TG is being used in that masculine context more often sure... in this conversation.

That was in no way represents TG as a whole.

When I said I don't use it because it tends to make some believe I feel male, that was meant in a butch related context only, that my being known as female bodied peeps assume when I label TG that I'm saying I'm male minded.

If I was male bodied and said it some peeps would automatically think I was saying I was female minded.

That's the prob for me... peeps wrapped up in an either or binary... not with the term TG... which is a non binary term.

[swagger]

the more i think about gender, as opposed to sex, the more i suspect myself of having no gender. seriously.

[noneoftheabove]

I really like this thread. I can't relate to man or woman either. In my head I have a male body but I am ok with having a physically female body. Somehow my brain is not registering this as a problem, and I have little to no dysphoria. I prefer he because it refers to the male that I see myself as but she is OK with me as long as it is referring to just my surface. I've been more uncomfortable to the people's reactions around me to the pronouns I've been called than to the pronouns themselves.

[Gráinne]

I'm new, and somehow stumbled into this thread.

I am biologically female, but not a woman. I have a strong streak of masculinity in me, but I am not a man. As far back as I can remember, even before realizing I was lesbian, I knew I didn't fit into "girl" or "boy". It's not about transitioning into an "opposite", but realizing that I am both and neither.

I feel that gender isn't all-one or all the other, but is a kind of continuum. I would go as far as to say that I believe there are more than three genders, that don't necessarily manifest themselves in appearance but are on the inside. I don't know if any of this makes sense, but that's OK; it only has to make sense to me.

When I first came out, I thought I had to "pick one"-butch or femme, and I couldn't fit 100% in either. So again, I am both and I am neither. I don't know if "andro" fits, or even if that word is still used. It feels a little unnerving, not having a box to check, so to speak, but on the other hand, it's liberating. I kind of like being open to whatever feels right on a given day.

[nytangel]

Originally Posted by Gryph

I go by two-spirit as a way of denoting my gender. I am the best and worst of both(in our binary world) in one body. Pronouns to me don't matter, I will and do answer to both he and she and not think anything of it, that is part of being two-spirit.

I came to the conclusion years ago that I kind of like this body and I have no need to bind or anything like that. Besides it would be a bit hard, my tits are rather ample, its a family trait. So I dress in male clothes, except for the sports bras that I wear for work and other then winter, I keep my hair fairly short. A quick look and I get tagged as a butch all the time, which is not a big deal for me.

I agree its the best of both worlds. I've had some great conversations w/ friends that have opted to start the surgical process; but that is something that I can not do. How do others feel about the reassignment surgery?

[Darth Denkay]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Wicket, there are some butches who feel their gender is Butch, without other qualifiers or other genders in addition to. Butch is generally understood to be masculine female. So I am wondering why your gender wouldn't just be Butch as a stand alone gender if other terms don't really resonate with you? I am just curious is all.

You're right Bulldog, many folks around here use Butch as their sole gender identifier. The reason I am really exploring other labels is that, in my opinion, butch as a gender is only useful within the butch-femme community. In thinking about being a part of the broader general public, although most folks still won't get it, third gender would be easier to understand. It's less specific, granted. But I think they could wrap their heads around it better. The other reason is that I am hesitant, especially in the general public, to think that adding gender categories is helpful. Seems like a huge to me. We add butch and femme to the gender categories, others who don't feel as though they quite fit into the now four-gender system come up with their own, and we end up with a never-ending list of gender categories. Instead, why not simply present ourselves as not male or female, simply in an attempt to challenge the accepted gender binary. That seems to me a potentially more effective goal.

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

You bet!

I have been thinking about the fact that I (and it seems like quite a few others) do take some license when applying different gender theories to myself. I don't really know how this plays out in terms of those who are really experts in the field. There are certainly a whole lot of folks much more well-read, up to date and have a very breadth of knowledge in this area compared to me right here on the site (and the other sites for the B-F community. Some are even majoring in college in Gender Studies, etc. I know that when I am pondering gender identification it really helps me to ask folks I know that have more knowledge and can give me info on the literature.

Ah, so the academics are the experts in gender theory? I'm still in graduate school and have done a large amount of reading and some research around gender theory, especially butch-femme. I don't think that I can completely understand any one person's experience of gender. I can better articulate mine, but no one can box me into a specific gender theory. We are all the experts of our own gendered experience.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Darth Denkay

You're right Bulldog, many folks around here use Butch as their sole gender identifier. The reason I am really exploring other labels is that, in my opinion, butch as a gender is only useful within the butch-femme community. In thinking about being a part of the broader general public, although most folks still won't get it, third gender would be easier to understand. It's less specific, granted. But I think they could wrap their heads around it better. The other reason is that I am hesitant, especially in the general public, to think that adding gender categories is helpful. Seems like a huge to me. We add butch and femme to the gender categories, others who don't feel as though they quite fit into the now four-gender system come up with their own, and we end up with a never-ending list of gender categories. Instead, why not simply present ourselves as not male or female, simply in an attempt to challenge the accepted gender binary. That seems to me a potentially more effective goal.

Darth, thank you for your post. I agree with you that the proliferation of gender identities doesn't seem particularly helpful in terms of breaking free of the binary system way of thinking or being particularly accessible to the general public, no matter how meaningful the various gender identities may be on an individual and personal level.

Butch is meaningful to me, but out in the world I am seen as female, woman and lesbian- which is fine by me. I feel as a butch woman I transgress gender and challenge the stereotypes of what woman is and can be. I feel that third gender can also challenge what man and woman can be as well as offer other alternatives to man and woman. I would use man and woman rather than male and female, which to me are biological sex and not gender.

I do feel that the limitations and stereotypes placed upon man and woman is the main problem, more than there not being enough genders. However, I do believe more than two genders exist and should be recognized.

Thanks again Darth.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Darth Denkay

[COLOR="Navy"][SIZE="3"][FONT="Times New Roman"]

Ah, so the academics are the experts in gender theory? I'm still in graduate school and have done a large amount of reading and some research around gender theory, especially butch-femme. I don't think that I can completely understand any one person's experience of gender. I can better articulate mine, but no one can box me into a specific gender theory. We are all the experts of our own gendered experience.

Only experts in developing the theoretical positions and doing research. I do as you do in drawing from theory and applying what makes sense to me. That is what I mean't by taking license. I have a fundamental understanding of the literature, but, it isn't something that I study deeply as do many TG folks I know. Probably this is due to my not viewung myself as Trans and have no reason to look deeply at reassignment issues. It does help, though, to understand key elements in being able to talk with transitioning friends and offer support.

There is an academic study of gender based on theory and research and is part of curriculums all over the world. Helpful in that there has not been a lot of research done in the past. Even the stats on the numbers of those choosing reassignment are sketchy. It would seem that the development of academic curriculum as well as research studies would help in political areas such as in employment discrimination. And also help with kids and their parents deal with gender identity differences (from the binary) earlier and with some social supports.

I do hear you about our own personal experience of gender. I know that there is quite a mix for me in how I view myself and often, I don't fit into any given box when it come to my own personal gender distinctions.

[Dylan]

Is there anyone on this site who considers "Butch" or "Femme" their gender and/or sex?

Just "Butch" or "Femme"

Not "Female/Woman Butch or Femme" and not "Male Butch or Femme"

Just plain ol' "Butch" or "Femme"...the end?



Dylan

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Is there anyone on this site who considers "Butch" or "Femme" their gender and/or sex?

Just "Butch" or "Femme"

Not "Female/Woman Butch or Femme" and not "Male Butch or Femme"

Just plain ol' "Butch" or "Femme"...the end?



Dylan

I did for most of my life Dylan. In my thinking, or maybe the environment I came from to be Butch did imply you were not a "woman" like the others. But, you were not a "man" either.

Then the 80s came along and the gender theory began to bust open the accepted binary. Initially I did not see the big differences between an FTM and a Butch. Now 20 something years later, I have taken in so much new information and changed some of my beliefs.

So know, I no longer consistently identify solely as "Butch."

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Is there anyone on this site who considers "Butch" or "Femme" their gender and/or sex?

Just "Butch" or "Femme"

Not "Female/Woman Butch or Femme" and not "Male Butch or Femme"

Just plain ol' "Butch" or "Femme"...the end?



Dylan

I'd thought about butch as a gender, the thing for me is I don't see how my gender is dependent in any way to my being female bodied and having masculinity.

In other words if I wasn't a "butch" I'd still be genderqueer... if I wasn't masculine I'd still be genderqueer.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Yes, I understand what you are saying when you say that using TG (TG Butch, I assume you meant, maybe?, not just TG?), creates a thinking in people that you see yourself as a man or maybe male. This has been my concern by using this label myself. People have moved away from the term transsexual it seems, and transgender is often used in place (even though the first defines a person as viewing themselves as the opposite sex, and the other has been defined as an umbrella term, which are two different things, obviously).

I use the TG Butch label b/c I guess I want to get across the "not male and not female"/"male and female" identity. Third gendered to me just means not a man and not a woman, so that does not seem to be enough (for me). Make sense?

I actually wrote on the dash site, maybe a couple of years ago, my frustration in there not being a term to describe my type of butch, as TG Butch was really misleading (due to how transgender is commonly assumed to mean transsexual nowadays), but since I have found nothing else, I have stuck with it.

Sorry if the above was confusing...I was just rambling out some thoughts, here...

Side note: Similarly, I use but, really don't like, the pronoun "hy". But since I am in the middle, "he", nor "she" fits, so I feel stuck with it! lol

Yep, I meant TG in the butch context...

3rd Gender is vague, yep same difficulties there myself. I had a thread mid last year and I must have wrote a novelette and was never happy with the terms used to describe it though I probably used 10 at least... lol.

Pretty much I'm using 3G here because it's a at least close descriptor at a "glance" yet open for many to join the convo. It's kind of funny though b/c I'm wayyyyy not into labeling myself... and do love "just being". Yet, I think just as women and men have those designations of gender as an internal "I'm a", or just a "knowing" as a given, - one of a different gender simply desires to name that too, that strong essence that drives so much of who we are as humans.

That in which most others just have a "place" and probably take for granted how important being recognized in that is, even if just in oneself.

Ok, now I may be rambling a bit myself...

Anyway, I think one of the problems for me as "other" is looking for a word that really narrows it, but I'm thinking even for those who actually are "woman" or "man" those words aren't fully telling. So I think for myself something fairly open like GQ probably is the most fitting without needing to get specific.

*An aside for those wincing as I'm sure it sometimes sounds a lot like conflating sex and gender in the thread (I'm wincing a bit too). But it's not really, just hard with the perimeters of a binary language (and I would say there's is a gender and mental sex connect just no rule). Maybe the best way to put it (for myself) is in relating yes, to some TG's who feel as not as a man- yet male... it's very similar for me, not a woman, not a man- yet male/female.*

Oh and welcome to everybody who's joined the conversation *thumbs up*

Metropolis