Catholicism

[Sun]

Hello All,

I saw this thread and thought that I might share a link to Dignity USA, a group
founded by and for lgbtq Catholics. This may help some of you keep a connection to the Church while honoring your selves in your wholeness as people regardless of the poor biblical scholarship and crimes against humanity perpetuated by the Church "leadership".

It is my belief that the body of the Church resides in the people, not the leaders. Catholic people are among the first to give, to reach out in community and offer a hand, to feed the hungry or house the homeless. So do not despair over the ongoing crisis in leadership, there is good in the body of the Church, or as you say, the body of Christ.

One side of my family was Catholic and the other Jehovahs Witness. So I can not claim to have been one or the other, but made my way through that confusion to Unitarian Universalism where I do find many recovering Catholics and a huge "welcoming denomination" as well as the largest # of lgbtq Ministers in the world.

Sun

[stargazingboi]

Hmm I do have a story for you but I will need to come back when I have more time. I have had good and bad experiences...let me put my thoughts together and get back to you.

[julieisafemme]

I am not Catholic but I went to a Jesuit college and I really appreciated that approach to learning. I learned about Dorothy Day there and I love the commitment to social justice in the Catholic faith. I have read about the great work so many orders of nuns have done and in particular that they have taken on the Church in many instances.

ETA I was particularly impressed with Joe Biden's answer in the debates this year about how his faith informs his public service.

[Ciaran]

Originally Posted by Sun

I saw this thread and thought that I might share a link to Dignity USA, a group
founded by and for lgbtq Catholics. This may help some of you keep a connection to the Church while honoring your selves in your wholeness as people regardless of the poor biblical scholarship and crimes against humanity perpetuated by the Church "leadership".

Sun

I genuinely appreciate the well-intended nature of your post. Furthermore, I can understand the reference to "crimes against humanity".

However, I am slightly uneasy by your reference to "poor biblical scholarship". I don't think that, in itself, is a bad thing. I think about faith and my Catholicism a lot. For me, the bible isn't the be all and end all. In fact, far from it. Biblical scholarship doesn't appeal to me.

Give me a living church with its many faults, and worshipers who often fail, rather than something that places too significant focus on writings of previous millenia.

Originally Posted by Sun

So do not despair over the ongoing crisis in leadership, there is good in the body of the Church, or as you say, the body of Christ.

One side of my family was Catholic and the other Jehovahs Witness. So I can not claim to have been one or the other, but made my way through that confusion to Unitarian Universalism where I do find many recovering Catholics and a huge "welcoming denomination" as well as the largest # of lgbtq Ministers in the world.

I don't despair. There's always been a significant amount of good and evil in the church. There always will be. Good attracts evil, certainly on spiritual matters.

Similarly, there's good and bad in the leadership of the church. I, for one, am confident that the good will triumph over the bad but this will take time and will be a prolonged process. The phrase "Rome wasn't built in a day" is rather apt.

Not all of us here are recovering Catholics or feel the need to look elsewhere for spiritual comfort. I'm openly and unashamedly Roman Catholic and my individual identity, and the insights and the challenges that this provides are fundamental to my Catholicism and how I experience it.

[Sun]

Originally Posted by Ciaran

Sun

I genuinely appreciate the well-intended nature of your post. Furthermore, I can understand the reference to "crimes against humanity".

However, I am slightly uneasy by your reference to "poor biblical scholarship". I don't think that, in itself, is a bad thing. I think about faith and my Catholicism a lot. For me, the bible isn't the be all and end all. In fact, far from it. Biblical scholarship doesn't appeal to me.

Ciaran, Please forgive me for offending you with that comment I should have been more specific; the interpretation of Leviticus that has been used to denounce men who are with men, is what I was referring to. That one interpretation, which many biblical scholars and clergy have referred to as "poor biblical scholarship" has been used to oppress for far too long. In the marriage equality movement in the states biblical scholar EJ Graff made strides with her work "What is Marriage For?" listing factual accounts of the history of marriage. Many mainstream fundamentalist religions misinterpret the history or marriage, to fulfill an agenda. In that circle of conversation the term "poor biblical scholarship" was used often.

I do think that it is important that if any institution is going to use a text to teach that the leadership understand the original text prior to translation.

Again I did not intend to offend, rather I was hoping to share the information from Dignity USA as many of my Catholic friends very much enjoy Dignity and have for many years.

[Ciaran]

Originally Posted by Sun

Ciaran, Please forgive me for offending you with that comment I should have been more specific; the interpretation of Leviticus that has been used to denounce men who are with men, is what I was referring to. That one interpretation, which many biblical scholars and clergy have referred to as "poor biblical scholarship" has been used to oppress for far too long. In the marriage equality movement in the states biblical scholar EJ Graff made strides with her work "What is Marriage For?" listing factual accounts of the history of marriage. Many mainstream fundamentalist religions misinterpret the history or marriage, to fulfill an agenda. In that circle of conversation the term "poor biblical scholarship" was used often.

I do think that it is important that if any institution is going to use a text to teach that the leadership understand the original text prior to translation.

Again I did not intend to offend, rather I was hoping to share the information from Dignity USA as many of my Catholic friends very much enjoy Dignity and have for many years.

Sun - there was no offence taken.


I was simply indicating that my religion isn't a part of a textbook but a part of my DNA. I don't know what my ancestors think on the subject of LGBT rights but would be surprised if they've heard of Levicitus. Similarly, I don't give a damn what "biblical scholars" think. My (Roman) Catholicism isn't a belief that can be explained by religious scripts or textbooks or understood in the halls of academia. I am glad of that.


For me, my Roman Catholicm is a part of my identity and a part of my value-judgement system. It's integral to, and an evolvement of, something that my forefathers and foremothers not only believed in but fought for and represented. My Catholicism isn't about some verse in the bible that I have never read nor understood.


Rather, it's about my mother, then aged 15, who with her mother and priest heard a banshee on the night her father died at the age of 50. He was a non-smoker and took his first ever alcohol, a shot of brandy, that night. The banshee is said to only appear when those most devout of the Irish are dying.

My Catholicism is also about my father's people - years spent at graveyard Sundays praying respects for family members I didn't know and now doing exactly the same but, as I and we all age, for family members that I do know.

Roman Catholicism isn't easy. I have significant issues with the Roman Catholic church - admittedly these are very different from most here. My issues with the church aren't to do with LGBT aspects but rather nationality / politics .

The church in Ireland has generally been viewed as Irish nationalist and parts of the church have been very sympathetic towards Irish republicanism. Conversely, I'm the polar opposite politically - and have been all my life. I have an absolute hatred of all forms of Irish nationalism and republicanism, violent or otherwise.

This caused me to turn my back on the church for many years - I was already coming back to it but time spent in the Philippines in 2008 speeded that process up.

I go to mass an average of once a week - sometimes more, sometimes less. Often, here in London, I go to the Soho Masses, a mass aimed towards LGBT Catholic folk in London. However, I am as happy to go to more mainstream services and when I'm back to Belfast over Christmas, I'll be at mass four or five times alongside a very conservative congregation and will be accepted with nothing but lovingness and warmth.

I've never been made not to feel welcome or a part of the Catholic community - which is just as well as it's a community I won't be leaving until I'm in the ground.


Give me holy water, a crucifix and sacred heart on my desert island.

[Gráinne]

Not a practicing Roman Catholic, but I suddenly had a memory this morning.

When I was in college the first go-around (so 1981-85), I didn't follow any particular faith, having left my parents' church several years before. I still felt some kind of need for a spiritual practice, so even though I wasn't a Roman Catholic, I went to Mass at the Church a block from my dorm. As I recall, I asked a Catholic friend "How do you go to Mass"?, so I didn't make a fool out of myself.

It may seem a shallow reason for attending, but St. George's was the most beautiful church I had ever seen. It was a historic building in the University neighborhood, right up next to gas stations, a disco, and fast food restaurants.

Someone upthread quoted the prayer right before Eucharist-the part about being unworthy, but say the word and my spirit will be healed. I remember being so moved by that, and I certainly needed healing and lots of it. For many reasons, I was pretty much like a broken down car and completely out of spiritual gas.

I always snapped to attention at the benediction-"The Lord bless you and keep you, the Lord make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you; the Lord turn his face towards you and grant you peace" Well, I needed all those things, massively. Upon the benediction, I felt I could keep going for another week. It filled me.

So I did the whole thing-went to classes, had a kind of confirmation ceremony, and Eucharist, I believe. I eventually left Cincinnati but remained a practicing Roman Catholic back in *hometown also beginning with a C*.

There's no good reason why I stopped, except that a few years after I went home, I moved out again and across the country and began a pretty wild (read: irresponsible) lifestyle for a few years. I wonder if I'd stuck to it, and received that benediction every week, if I would have gotten so far off track.

I never formally left the Church, if there is such a thing. It's a very long story, but I bounced around through several Protestant denominations and Episcopal (very Roman Catholic-like in service while still Protestant), then even some time as an Evangelical before leaving Christianity altogether and currently struggling between Judaism and Quakerism.

But even if I'm not a Christian and have serious questions about theology, I still remember how centered I felt during those services. My life fell apart, but spiritually, I had a community and I loved the beauty.

Out of curiosity, I looked up St. George's. Sadly, attendance declined in the years after I was there, with the growth of the University and changing neighborhood. It closed in 1993, and combined with a church a few miles away. I was glad to hear that the beautiful building was saved from being wrecked, and I hope it continues thus.

[Ciaran]

I thought I'd update this thread again with some reflections from here in London.


Firstly, a wider issue impacting the Roman Catholic church here in the UK and that is the resignation last week of Cardinal Keith O'Brien. O'Brien was the most senior Catholic here in UK and was to be the only UK representative who was going to be able to vote in upcoming papal conclave.


His resignation was forced through by the Vatican following allegations from four priests that he had engaged with them in sexual activity - and some suggestions that he had used undue influence in this regard. After initially refuting the allegations, he has now admitted that his sexual conduct has at times "fallen beneath the standards expected of me".


As an outspoken opponent of LGBT marriage and having made numerous homophobic pronouncements through his tenure, the hypocracy was glaring. Yet there is also something incredibly sad about it all - a man potentially so untrue to himself that any legacy of his life was all about a lie.


On more local matters, our LGBT Catholic community here in London had its first service in our Farm Street church on Sunday. Until now, we've had our own standalone service, for LGBT folk and friends and families but that was recently brought to an end by the Archbishop of London.


Instead, he suggested that we should integrate with the wider Roman Catholic community here in London - of course, most of us already do at other times of worship anyway. There was a fear from many of us that this was a deliberate attempt to marginalise us and to make us invisible within the London Catholic community. Many of us have been cynical.


We are now worshiping at Farm Street in London's Mayfair. It's a truly beautiful church:

http://www.panoramicstudio.co.uk/church/


The church was packed on Sunday evening - standing room only in fact. At first, I felt a sense of isolation and loneliness - it all seemed somewhat foreign to me, many strange faces and the lack of common welcome I had been used to at our "Soho Masses".


It all seemed a bit too stilted also .... and initially, as I looked around, I saw only strangers. Then, one-by-one, I saw that there were many of us LGBT Catholics who'd made the journey from our old church to this one. We exist.


So far, the non-LGBT parishioners have been incredibly welcoming to us, as have the priests of the parish. Furthermore, after Sunday's service, the Archbishop of London held a reception for us and, whilst I didn't stay for this, he apparently engaged in an open, honest and constructive debate. It's the first time that openly LGBT Catholics here in the UK have had such direct engagement with such a senior representative of the Church. That's got to be encouraging.


So where to from here? I don't know but, for me, the words of Yves Congar, a Dominican theological, resonate ..... in particular, to paraphrase, that our lives and our faiths are characterised by journeys and that we should never think we've arrived as our lives are nomadic and we never really know our ultimate destination. I'm on that journey.

[meridiantoo]

Originally Posted by Ciaran

...the words of Yves Congar, a Dominican theological, resonate ..... in particular, to paraphrase, that our lives and our faiths are characterised by journeys and that we should never think we've arrived as our lives are nomadic and we never really know our ultimate destination. I'm on that journey.

I love this! Thank you for your thoughtful posts, insights, and faith.

[Gráinne]

Just catching a few minutes of the election of the Pope on TV. I thought it was unusual that the press would be invited in there; I don't think this is a part of the Vatican that regular people ever get to see. Still, I've always wanted to see what is open, such as the Sistine Chapel. Truly a beautiful place.

Even if whoever is Pope doesn't affect me in any way, it will be interesting to see if it's someone "traditional", or if they go with someone outside the box. There's no rule that the Pope can't be black, or American (controversies aside).

[Ciaran]

Thought I'd refresh this thread. I'm refreshing it not to talk of theology or to try to convince others that the Catholic church is slowly but surely changing for the better - although I do think it is. Rather, just to share an update on my own Roman Catholicism.


Most Saturdays, I watch football (aka soccer), drink a few, or more, beers and spend too much money shopping. Today, however, I went to a full day workshop for LGBT Catholics in London. Entitled, "Next Steps", it was just that i.e. each of us working out our next steps on our Catholic journey.


I'm not sure if my Catholic faith is still growing stronger. However, I do know that it's increasingly important to me. I appreciate that for many, maybe most, being LGBT and Catholic is a contradiction in terms. However, to me, it's the opposite. For me, as bizarre as it may sound, I find it easier to reconcile my genderqueerness through my Catholicism than through anything else.


I've been luckier than most. Unlike many others, my home parish (in Northern Ireland) was always been welcoming to me. It still is. It remains an important part of my life, especially when I come home. I return to the church as often as I can - in fact, I was able to convince Tmbyfem, a member here, to accompany me to a beautiful Christmas Eve service a few years ago when she was visiting from San Diego.


That church is where my mother first took me to mass over 37 years ago. More recently, a few weeks ago when my mum visited London, I had the opportunity to take her to my current parish here in London. It's at Farm Street, Mayfair - where our active LGBT "Soho Masses" community now celebrates it mass and where today's workshop was held. Bringing my mum to this church was incredibly affirming for me on many levels. She, a conversative Catholic, has become an active proponent of LGBT rights and visibility within the church. I should never have expected any less given the unconditional love she has always shown to me - but, all the same, I'm still really pleased about it all.


So today's workshop? Well, it was important to me. I don't always like living in London and it will never be my home. However, today reminded me that I'm fortunate to live somewhere that's cosmopolitan enough to have a real and active LGBT Catholic community. The opportunity to interact on a real and meaningful level with other LGBT Catholics is invaluable to those who do have a Catholic faith and want to reconcile it to their non-heteronormative gender identity / sexuality.


In particular, here in London which has been the focus of much of the global media attention on LGBT rights within the Catholic chuch over recent months given the church authority's decision to stop our LGBT-focused masses. Our previous LGBT-focused mass was ended by the church authorities as, so they said, they wanted LGBT Catholics to form part of a wider, active, functioning parish. There were, and remain, many doubters. They might have a point - the number of visible LGBT Catholics at our regular masses is said to have dropped.


Notwithstanding that, we remain a real community and we are now becoming a real part of a wider parish community. The existing "straight" parishioners have accepted us with open arms - unambiguously so. The parish has had one letter of complaint about our involvement and that letter came from a non-parishioner. Just as we are gaining from the parish, the existing parishioners are (hopefully) benefiting from us too. We're taking part in wider parish communities and existing parishioners are coming to some of our social functions. There's learning on both sides - and, yes, we are becoming a real and meaningful part of parish life.


As a part of today's workshop, we were each asked to decide upon a number of personal commitments to make or undertake over the next twelve months. One of mine, rather spontaneous, is to complete a Lough Derg pilgrimage. It's a rather harsh pilgrimage on a remote island off the western Irish coast. I've wanted to do this for some time but have lacked the courage, probably due to an uneasiness as to how my genderqueerness will be accepted.


Sometimes, however, you just need to take that next step .....................