Changing last names

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by IslandScout

The kind of person I would fall in love with wouldn't want me to change my name to hers.

The same goes for me.

Dapper, although I personally find it maddening that ALL the people who have volounteered to change their name to match their partner's in this thread are femmes, and ALL the people who have noted a preference for their partner to change her name to their own are butch or trans, which not coincidentally matches a heteronormative custom of men taking ownership of the women who marry them, even I haven't said "misogyny" yet. You did. Hmmm.

Everyone is free to change their name however they want. I may not understand it, but it's their name and their choice. Several people have discussed blending names, but so far NOT ONE butch or trans person has volounteered to take the name of the femme they marry. I'm getting a little cranky about that.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by IslandScout

The kind of person I would fall in love with wouldn't want me to change my name to hers.

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

The same goes for me.

Why is that? Why wouldn't you fall in love with a person who would want that? Who/what is that "kind of person"?

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Why is that? Why wouldn't you fall in love with a person who would want that? Who is that "kind of person"?

Names are powerful symbols. I wouldn't expect a person who I partnered with or married to change her name to mine because her name is her own identity, and I wouldn't want her to change something as primary as her identity in order to marry me. That would be an absorption of her autonomous personhood into mine that would not feel comfortable for me.

For exactly the same reasons, I wouldn't want to be with a person who expected me to subsume my identity into hers. Should a prospective partner ever ask that of me the extra irritant in her request, which would be coming from a masculine person, would come about because that very symbolic gesture would carry the freight of thousands of years of autonomous males legally dominating disenfranchised females. Even if the earth shifted on its axis and I were to consider marriage to a person who was not masculine, marriage has meant ownership of one person by another for so long that I'm particularly prickly about anything that would appear to diminish my autonomy in a legally sanctioned relationship.

I understand that butches are not men. Butches and femmes get to choose the rituals that work for them, those choices may or may not reflect heteronormative values, and it's not my business to judge if they do. I just won't be going anywhere near that road, much less traipse down it myself. Those are my personal choices, and I feel pretty strongly about them.

That said, trans men usually get pretty bent out of shape when people say they're not really men. So when men of any kind expect women, femmes or otherwise, to reflexively change their names when they marry, you can bet your next mortgage payment that I'm going to get cranky. Men and women choose to do this all the time. Their lives, their choices. The part that really freaks me out is that no one is questioning why women reflexively change their names and men never consider doing so. Oh, perhaps they might hyphenate, but when Joe Smith marries Jane Johnson, they never become the Johnsons. Has anyone asked why that is since… ohhh… 1979?

What kind of person would expect me to change my name to their's when I marry? That would be a person who has never met me.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

Names are powerful symbols. I wouldn't expect a person who I partnered with or married to change her name to mine because her name is her own identity, and I wouldn't want her to change something as primary as her identity in order to marry me. That would be an absorption of her autonomous personhood into mine that would not feel comfortable for me.

For exactly the same reasons, I wouldn't want to be with a person who expected me to subsume my identity into hers. Should a prospective partner ever ask that of me the extra irritant in her request, which would be coming from a masculine person, would come about because that very symbolic gesture would carry the freight of thousands of years of autonomous males legally dominating disenfranchised females. Even if the earth shifted on its axis and I were to consider marriage to a person who was not masculine, marriage has meant ownership of one person by another for so long that I'm particularly prickly about anything that would appear to diminish my autonomy in a legally sanctioned relationship.

I understand that butches are not men. Butches and femmes get to choose the rituals that work for them, those choices may or may not reflect heteronormative values, and it's not my business to judge if they do. I just won't be going anywhere near that road, much less traipse down it myself. Those are my personal choices, and I feel pretty strongly about them.

That said, trans men usually get pretty bent out of shape when people say they're not really men. So when men of any kind expect women, femmes or otherwise, to reflexively change their names when they marry, you can bet your next mortgage payment that I'm going to get cranky. Men and women choose to do this all the time. Their lives, their choices. The part that really freaks me out is that no one is questioning why women reflexively change their names and men never consider doing so. Oh, perhaps they might hyphenate, but when Joe Smith marries Jane Johnson, they never become the Johnsons. Has anyone asked why that is since… ohhh… 1979?

What kind of person would expect me to change my name to their's when I marry? That would be a person who has never met me.

Want and expect are two different things. I wouldn't suggest anyone date someone who "expected" someone to change their name.

IslandScout's word was "want", it was not "expect". A whole different ball of wax. If the post said "expect", I would have given the post a "thanks", instead of a response.

[SimpleAlaskanBoy]

I changed mine already once, to take my mother's last name and a new first and middle when I started transition. because my father isn't supportive at all mad mom is, so.
Daisy's current last name is from the ex husband...it fits her though and if she wanted to keep it, or hypenate it it would be okay with me...it's not the name I am marrying it's her. Still it would be nice to hear Mrs. SAB.


~SAB

[macele]

i've never liked the idea of changing my last name. and i would not expect anyone to change theirs to mine. i'll never ask. i am butch. but i don't think that has anything to do with why i don't care for the change of last names. when i originally said, "no way!", being butch never crossed my mind. i'm ok with each person hyphenating and adding the others name. that's being fair lol.

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by IslandScout
The kind of person I would fall in love with wouldn't want me to change my name to hers.

Posted in response by DapperButch:
Ok, so because I like the idea of TF changing her name to mine I am what? A misogynist? Is it like an automatic thing or do my other characteristics and character traits come into account when determining this?



No, DapperButch, I wasn't saying that you're a misogynist. That's quite a leap. I was saying, a person who wants me to change my name to hers would likely have a different set of expectations about relationships than I would and maybe, she would have more heteronormative values than I do, not that I don't love the butch/femme delineation. If it works for you and TF, that's cool.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by IslandScout

Originally Posted by IslandScout
The kind of person I would fall in love with wouldn't want me to change my name to hers.

Posted in response by DapperButch:
Ok, so because I like the idea of TF changing her name to mine I am what? A misogynist? Is it like an automatic thing or do my other characteristics and character traits come into account when determining this?



No, DapperButch, I wasn't saying that you're a misogynist. That's quite a leap. I was saying, a person who wants me to change my name to hers would likely have a different set of expectations about relationships than I would and maybe, she would have more heteronormative values than I do, not that I don't love the butch/femme delineation. If it works for you and TF, that's cool.

Hey, IslandScout. It was a bit of a leap, I admit. I should have asked why you wouldn't fall in love with someone who would want that, prior to throwing out possible reasons. I am reading you to say that you have assumptions attached to people who would want that.

I do think there could be a number of reasons why someone may want someone to change their name when they marrry and it is not always about heternormative values (especially in the LGBT community). I believe that this is a huge generalization which isn't fair to those people who live a queer life and do not adhere to heteronormative ways of living. To me, your post felt shaming. Like there is something wrong with a person if they would "want" that. That is what triggered me, as my head went to those who have already posted here that they took their partner's name/desired to take their partner's name/want their partner to take their name, etc. I felt their cringe (not just my own).

However, I think I was a bit aggressive with my post, and I apologize for that.

As I said in my post to Cheryl, if you had said, "expect", I would have been right there with you.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Want and expect are two different things. I wouldn't suggest anyone date someone who "expected" someone to change their name.

IslandScout's word was "want", it was not "expect". A whole different ball of wax. If the post said "expect", I would have given the post a "thanks", instead of a response.

Interesting point Dapper. Want and expect are two different balls of wax. What is your take on the differences?

For me, I agree with Island's choice of words. And, I am in love with Cheryl's brain.

I am a strong woman and an ardent feminist. I advocate for women breaking the molds that have confined and defined them for centuries. I advocate for making something new and different, not regurgitating something with a different spin on it.

Marriage and all that comes with it, has a history that is very derogatory to women. It is about women as property (of their fathers) being sold (dowries) to a new owner (husbands). Women took their husbands names in marriage to signify the change in ownership.

Just because one is a femme or lesbian or a butch or trans does not change the meaning or intent of these traditions. Reframing intent or meaning is a good exercise in semantics but does little to change the reality of these traditions as symbols of the oppression of women in service to the masculine. Reclaiming them does not change the meaning, the internalized and externalized misogyny or internalized or externalized sexism behind the traditions and the many ways these are expressed.

Simply, perpetuating intent is just perpetuating intent. Thus, "expect" is very much just maintaining the status quo albeit with queer overtones. Same symbols of subservience and superiority, of leadership and following, of power dynamics. Benevolent sexism is still sexism.

Want, to me, symbolizes just the opposite. It means being true to myself as a woman and a feminist and that truth isn't swayed by someone or something or tradition. It means being well aware of the symbols of my oppression and the way they play out in everyday life, in relationships, in communities, in id's and in orientations. My relationship status or marital status doesn't cause it to waver. It is who I am.

If I am involved with someone who needs to entertain taking my name, I'm pretty sure I am in the wrong relationship. This is not an honor to me. How you treat me, love me, respect me is honoring me.

Taking my name or wanting to take my name? To me, this says a whole lot of stuff that isn't me. I am not more important than you, I don't need or want you to defer to me, I am not the leader nor do I want to be the leader of this relationship (even ceremonially).

I am a her partner. We are equals. If I fell in love with her, it is because she is one heck of an amazing, strong, capable, independent woman, publicly and privately. She lives her truth as I live mine and our truths happen to fit together.

Of course I am obligated to say this is just my truth. It is not meant as a judgment of or to cast aspersions on anyone else's truth.

[Bard]

This is just my opinion Desd took my last name when we married it was not about owning or her belonging to me we are equals in all aspects it was not so that we could be in a hetro like state . It was one thing that I had Never given to anyone and it was precious to me that she would take my name was a honor to me as we blended our lives two into one yet neither losing our own identity. None of my brothers have our family name they were adopted by their step father I am the only one that carries the name that was gifted to me by my father who I am very much like. I would have considered taking desd name if it had been important to her or a hyphenated thing and we also want to have children and they will carry on the name. my daughter has her mothers last name and my name is her middle name. i would never look down my nose at those who have no wish to change last name this is just us and what is right for us

[Loren_Q]

A name is personal. How one views it, what it's importance is belongs to the individual. There's no right/wrong thing here. What wouldn't be good is coercion or manipulation; the "If you love me you would" type of thing.

Now with that said my spouse took my name. We're both butch and in our relationship she is the dominant partner.

I didn't ask, want or expect her to take my name, not did I expect or want to take hers. On our 5 year anniversary she said she wanted to change her last name to mine because:
1. She didn't care for either parent (nor did they care for her).
2. The legal spelling of my last name is uniquely mine (long story).

I was surprised and glad for her. I didn't have a personal stake in the matter, but felt that if she's getting what she wants, then it's a good thing.

It's also a hoot that my Caucasian partner has an Asian last name. She's had a few interesting moments because of it.

[imperfect_cupcake]

OK how many butches are going to take the femmes name, if it'about sharing a name?

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by Kobi

If I am involved with someone who needs to entertain taking my name, I'm pretty sure I am in the wrong relationship. This is not an honor to me. How you treat me, love me, respect me is honoring me.

Kobi, That whole long post was really impactful I thought, but I excerpted this one little part because it is a more tactful way of saying what I said in my last post—substituting of course, the "who needs to entertain taking my name" with "who needs me to take their name."

And that brings up a point: Why did I assume that role of being the name-taker, not the name-giver, in my post? You likewise, assumed the opposite.

For me I think it's like that joke where you guess the wrong person at the end because subconsciously you can't equate "doctor" with "woman." (I think that joke is universal enough that a lot of people might have heard it at one time or another; I apologize if you don't know what I'm talking about.)

What I'm saying is, apparently I have internalized more assumptions about what it means to be feminine than I realized.

Scout

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by IslandScout

Kobi, That whole long post was really impactful I thought, but I excerpted this one little part because it is a more tactful way of saying what I said in my last post—substituting of course, the "who needs to entertain taking my name" with "who needs me to take their name."

And that brings up a point: Why did I assume that role of being the name-taker, not the name-giver, in my post? You likewise, assumed the opposite.

For me I think it's like that joke where you guess the wrong person at the end because subconsciously you can't equate "doctor" with "woman." (I think that joke is universal enough that a lot of people might have heard it at one time or another; I apologize if you don't know what I'm talking about.)

What I'm saying is, apparently I have internalized more assumptions about what it means to be feminine than I realized.

Scout

Scout, I am not sure I am following you. Or maybe I wasn't as clear as I thought.

For me it isn't just about femme's taking butches names. I have the same issue if butches wanted to take a femmes name or making a hyphened name, or making up a whole new name.

It is what the action symbolizes to the partners and to the society as a whole.

[PoeticSilence]

The state of Iowa is one of only two states that have a provision in their state laws that when a couple gets married, they can change their first, middle and/or last names to whatever they like. Kansas is the other state. So when my wife and I went to get married, we thought about it long and hard. It wasn't easy either. Neither of us wanted the others' last name so we finally came down between [removing personal information]

We didn't argue about not wanting to take each others' last name, we worked on getting a new one that we both were happy with.

So we were married in Iowa where it is legal. The federal government was on board with us and issued us new ss cards, the banks and businesses all made the changes too, but the state of Nebraska refused to work with us. We found a gay-friendly attorney in our area who took the case for filing fees only and we went before a judge after publicizing it in the paper for thirty days, and he pronounced us the Darlings. So we were able to get drivers licenses that matched everything else we had.

Reading this now it sounds so easy, but aside from mulling over possible names and what kinds of changes we wanted to make, making the state of Nebraska happy was a serious pain in the ass.

If I had to do it all over again, I would. I feel like the way we did it, taking a name that meant something for us rather than keeping our old names, was something we both consider important for us, even still.

[tantalizingfemme]

[QUOTE=Kobi;860805]

Interesting point Dapper. Want and expect are two different balls of wax. What is your take on the differences?

For me, I agree with Island's choice of words. And, I am in love with Cheryl's brain.

I am a strong woman and an ardent feminist. I advocate for women breaking the molds that have confined and defined them for centuries. I advocate for making something new and different, not regurgitating something with a different spin on it.

Marriage and all that comes with it, has a history that is very derogatory to women. It is about women as property (of their fathers) being sold (dowries) to a new owner (husbands). Women took their husbands names in marriage to signify the change in ownership.

Just because one is a femme or lesbian or a butch or trans does not change the meaning or intent of these traditions. Reframing intent or meaning is a good exercise in semantics but does little to change the reality of these traditions as symbols of the oppression of women in service to the masculine. Reclaiming them does not change the meaning, the internalized and externalized misogyny or internalized or externalized sexism behind the traditions and the many ways these are expressed.

Simply, perpetuating intent is just perpetuating intent. Thus, "expect" is very much just maintaining the status quo albeit with queer overtones. Same symbols of subservience and superiority, of leadership and following, of power dynamics. Benevolent sexism is still sexism.

Want, to me, symbolizes just the opposite. It means being true to myself as a woman and a feminist and that truth isn't swayed by someone or something or tradition. It means being well aware of the symbols of my oppression and the way they play out in everyday life, in relationships, in communities, in id's and in orientations. My relationship status or marital status doesn't cause it to waver. It is who I am.

If I am involved with someone who needs to entertain taking my name, I'm pretty sure I am in the wrong relationship. This is not an honor to me. How you treat me, love me, respect me is honoring me.

Taking my name or wanting to take my name? To me, this says a whole lot of stuff that isn't me. I am not more important than you, I don't need or want you to defer to me, I am not the leader nor do I want to be the leader of this relationship (even ceremonially).

I am a her partner. We are equals. If I fell in love with her, it is because she is one heck of an amazing, strong, capable, independent woman, publicly and privately. She lives her truth as I live mine and our truths happen to fit together.

Of course I am obligated to say this is just my truth. It is not meant as a judgment of or to cast aspersions on anyone else's truth.

[/QUOTE


So if I took Dapper's last name that means I am deferring to him?

[Kobi]

[quote=tantalizingfemme;860840]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Interesting point Dapper. Want and expect are two different balls of wax. What is your take on the differences?

For me, I agree with Island's choice of words. And, I am in love with Cheryl's brain.

I am a strong woman and an ardent feminist. I advocate for women breaking the molds that have confined and defined them for centuries. I advocate for making something new and different, not regurgitating something with a different spin on it.

Marriage and all that comes with it, has a history that is very derogatory to women. It is about women as property (of their fathers) being sold (dowries) to a new owner (husbands). Women took their husbands names in marriage to signify the change in ownership.

Just because one is a femme or lesbian or a butch or trans does not change the meaning or intent of these traditions. Reframing intent or meaning is a good exercise in semantics but does little to change the reality of these traditions as symbols of the oppression of women in service to the masculine. Reclaiming them does not change the meaning, the internalized and externalized misogyny or internalized or externalized sexism behind the traditions and the many ways these are expressed.

Simply, perpetuating intent is just perpetuating intent. Thus, "expect" is very much just maintaining the status quo albeit with queer overtones. Same symbols of subservience and superiority, of leadership and following, of power dynamics. Benevolent sexism is still sexism.

Want, to me, symbolizes just the opposite. It means being true to myself as a woman and a feminist and that truth isn't swayed by someone or something or tradition. It means being well aware of the symbols of my oppression and the way they play out in everyday life, in relationships, in communities, in id's and in orientations. My relationship status or marital status doesn't cause it to waver. It is who I am.

If I am involved with someone who needs to entertain taking my name, I'm pretty sure I am in the wrong relationship. This is not an honor to me. How you treat me, love me, respect me is honoring me.

Taking my name or wanting to take my name? To me, this says a whole lot of stuff that isn't me. I am not more important than you, I don't need or want you to defer to me, I am not the leader nor do I want to be the leader of this relationship (even ceremonially).

I am a her partner. We are equals. If I fell in love with her, it is because she is one heck of an amazing, strong, capable, independent woman, publicly and privately. She lives her truth as I live mine and our truths happen to fit together.

Of course I am obligated to say this is just my truth. It is not meant as a judgment of or to cast aspersions on anyone else's truth.

[/QUOTE


So if I took Dapper's last name that means I am deferring to him?

I put a disclaimer in there to avoid the drama of people personalizing my truth.

"Of course I am obligated to say this is just my truth. It is not meant as a judgment of or to cast aspersions on anyone else's truth."

It is up to you to define and speak to your truth.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I think if name taking was equal across the board, and not very o e sided, I'd say that its not deferring. but because it is very lop sided... cmon, it may not be you, but a good proportion of people are deferring to a feminine does the giving up and taking of the masculine in ord to "be a family". I see femmes with kids taking the butches name when it would be more logical for the butch to take the femme and the kids name, for example.

I think some assumptions have been internalized. or there wouldn't be such a massive difference.

[~baby~doll~]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Interesting point Dapper. Want and expect are two different balls of wax. What is your take on the differences?

For me, I agree with Island's choice of words. And, I am in love with Cheryl's brain.

I am a strong woman and an ardent feminist. I advocate for women breaking the molds that have confined and defined them for centuries. I advocate for making something new and different, not regurgitating something with a different spin on it.

Marriage and all that comes with it, has a history that is very derogatory to women. It is about women as property (of their fathers) being sold (dowries) to a new owner (husbands). Women took their husbands names in marriage to signify the change in ownership.

Just because one is a femme or lesbian or a butch or trans does not change the meaning or intent of these traditions. Reframing intent or meaning is a good exercise in semantics but does little to change the reality of these traditions as symbols of the oppression of women in service to the masculine. Reclaiming them does not change the meaning, the internalized and externalized misogyny or internalized or externalized sexism behind the traditions and the many ways these are expressed.

Simply, perpetuating intent is just perpetuating intent. Thus, "expect" is very much just maintaining the status quo albeit with queer overtones. Same symbols of subservience and superiority, of leadership and following, of power dynamics. Benevolent sexism is still sexism.

Want, to me, symbolizes just the opposite. It means being true to myself as a woman and a feminist and that truth isn't swayed by someone or something or tradition. It means being well aware of the symbols of my oppression and the way they play out in everyday life, in relationships, in communities, in id's and in orientations. My relationship status or marital status doesn't cause it to waver. It is who I am.

If I am involved with someone who needs to entertain taking my name, I'm pretty sure I am in the wrong relationship. This is not an honor to me. How you treat me, love me, respect me is honoring me.

Taking my name or wanting to take my name? To me, this says a whole lot of stuff that isn't me. I am not more important than you, I don't need or want you to defer to me, I am not the leader nor do I want to be the leader of this relationship (even ceremonially).

I am a her partner. We are equals. If I fell in love with her, it is because she is one heck of an amazing, strong, capable, independent woman, publicly and privately. She lives her truth as I live mine and our truths happen to fit together.

Of course I am obligated to say this is just my truth. It is not meant as a judgment of or to cast aspersions on anyone else's truth.

The history is true. This is certain.
Taking a name can be seen as you say just another brand of the status quo. True.
Not taking a spouses name or using a hyphen makes a statement as well. True
The fact that lesbians and gays want to get married at all is in a way a support of the old time heterosexual institution.
i would marry my partner in support of equality. i will take her name as a statement for self that i belong and She wants me. There can be many reasons for taking the name or hyphenating a name.