Independence- how was it for you?

[Redsunflower]

The debate continues over here. The last statistics I read showed 48% yes 52% no. This is going to be extremely close indeed.

An argument I'm encountering a lot concerns racism. It is being argued that one of the main reasons Scottish people want independence is because they are racist against English people and therefore want to dissociate completely. This is not my experience but I'm not sure what to make of the argument as it seems to be stirring up a lot of resentment. The Scottish National Party have always been accused of being a bit racist but their left-leaning politics are a much better reflection of political feeling in Scotland. I've never had a feeling that the SNP think we are superior to England. Hmmm...

[Redsunflower]

Also meant to say *Anya* that the Braveheart movie is so historically inaccurate that it's practically a work of fiction. Take a look at this.

http://www.scottishhistory.com/artic...raveheart.html

Mostly Scottish people are aware of this as it was well debated when the movie was released. There is some debate about independence being based on the sentimental feelings evoked in movies such as this. I'm fairly sure that's not true although there are romantic ideas about how great an independent Scotland would be. Is that the same thing?

[iamkeri1]

I was born, grew up and have lived in the United States my whole life. Two hundred years ago, independence from England was of prime importance. Perhaps I am an eejit (to use a term I have often heard used by my many Canadian relatives), but honestly, I have never in my life before considered the effect of the independence of the USA from Britain. We have been separate for a long time. We grew to our rather large size as an independent country either buying, seizing, stealing or in other ways acquiring the lands that now form the USA.

However, our issues of independence come more from our separate states. We have many issues that are fought out in the government involving state control versus federal control, One of the issues that is being fought out state to state right now is same sex marriage.

We fought a civil war many years ago to prevent the dissolution of the Union, but many states still believe they have a right to secede and there is still rather frequent talk of secession. I value the Union of the United states. Also I would like to see others included in our Union, or a new type of Union, similar to the EU. I believe many of our problems with trade, immigration, smuggling, etc. would be solved by forming the North American Union (or even the American Union including South American Countries.) I see us moving inevitably toward a world government. over the next couple of centuries.

The main problem I see in separation of Scotland from the UK is financial. How will you determine who owns what? Will the British Royalty cede to Scotland all the land they own there? What about the EU? Will you be admitted automatically, or have to apply as a new separate Country. Will you be able to meet their rather stringent guidelines for admission? What currency will you use?

Of special interest to me is this question. Will you require a visa or passport for British citizens to travel to Scotland?

My mother was a Canadian citizen. Prior to 911, travel back and forth across our border was easy. Answer a few questions and be on your way. Now the US requires a passport for such travel. (Canada does not) This has created a rift in my family, as some of us can not afford a passport, or choose not to get one for one reason or another. So we can not all gather in one place as we used to for our annual family reunions. Could this same thing happen in Scotland if you separate?

Since I favor consolidation of governments, I would not be in favor of this dissolution of ties. I think there are other better solutions. One would involve the elimination of the British Royalty. To me this is a ridiculous situation. The ancestors of these people stole land from their "subjects", redistributed the wealth. mostly to themselves, but also to their supporters, and now they are practically worshiped. They are extremely wealthy in a country which routinely struggles financially, and the people pay a lot of their bills. Just doesn't make sense to me. IMHO the monarchy with its rights and privileges contributes greatly to unrest between England and any other country in the commonwealth (comprised as it were, of commoners, while they are royalty and somehow superior.)

Well this certainly got long. I found it an interesting topic. Good luck as you move toward decision day
Smooches.
Keri

[Linus]

As a Canadian who went through Canada's independence from Britain in the 80s/90s, it's both thrilling and scary. While we did severe some of the more political stuff (requiring approval from the Queen for laws and such), we kept some of the heritage (e.g., changing of the guard, the figurehead of the Queen on money, etc.). I suspect the effect of independence garnering in a modern age with consensus and discussion results in a very different form of independence compared to others (aka the US and violently achieved independence). One of the "nicer" aspects is creating a modern constitution with rights for all and not just for some.

I know that it took a few years for everything to settle and, in Canada's case, it was more of a figurehead change than anything. We were already largely independent of Britain (own parliament, own ministers, own currency, etc.) and this was the final stage in garnering full independence.


iamkeri: both Canada and the US require passports when traveling between the border. (whether air, land or sea). That's been in place since 2005 or thereabouts. I don't think it'd necessarily happen to Scotland because, IIRC, they would still be part of the EU and it has an open-borders policy.

[Redsunflower]

Hi there iamkeri1

I don't think you're an eejit at all, it makes sense that you would take independence for granted, I wonder though if there's any talk about the 'bad old days' before independence?

The same sex marriage situation seems really unfair, to not have your marriage recognised if you move state or even go on holiday to another state. That makes no sense, hope it gets sorted quick.

No passports will be required for British citizens to come to Scotland, we'll be in a Common Travel Area. We won't be automatically admitted to the EU but will need to go through the application process. And the currency...don't get me started. Britain say no, we can't have the pound, it looks like there will need to be a hell of a lot of negotiation here to see how that will pan out. I just hope that we don't have to keep the nuclear submarine base at Faslane as a swap for keeping the pound. Personally I don't care and would be happy to change to the Euro.

How do you imagine getting rid of the royal family would help? Not that I'm a supporter, they are a bit ridiculous to say the least. And why do you value your union so much? I still can't think of a single reason to stay with Britain.

Smooches back at ya, and thank you so much for your interest.

:-)

[Redsunflower]

Linus, your independence story sounds so civilised and lovely! Maybe ours will be like that...I can only hope.

Do you not mind having the Queen's head on your cash though? :-)

[Linus]

Originally Posted by Redsunflower

Linus, your independence story sounds so civilised and lovely! Maybe ours will be like that...I can only hope.

Do you not mind having the Queen's head on your cash though? :-)

Not really. It's part of our heritage. That said, I am glad to see that over the last few years, with the introduction of "plastic money" (literally the bills are made of a polymer that doesn't wrinkle and is impossible to counterfeit) more "Canadian" images have been put on the bills. I think the intention is to get the Royals off before Charles possibly ascends. Those ears..

I do keep hoping that the Acadian Grand Derangement ends up on a bill one day. Or more aboriginal heroes/images. Often the images are of wildlife (animals, flowers) or sports (hockey, hockey, hockey)

[Linus]

Originally Posted by Redsunflower

Linus, your independence story sounds so civilised and lovely! Maybe ours will be like that...I can only hope.

Do you not mind having the Queen's head on your cash though? :-)

Oh.. and it wasn't that civilized (Trudeau was involved and swearing was commonplace) but probably moreso than the US. Then again, Canada is a nation built on committee meetings having meetings about meetings about meetings...