Being female within Butch

[JDeere]

I don't think your experience is unique nor do I see your posts as rambling. I have a feeling more folks will come along, more butches, per say to put more input on here.

[BullDog]

I would say that I think of myself more as being butch than I do female. For me personally, butch is rooted in female (I know it isn't for every single butch), so it's kind of just understood for me.

The examples that have been brought up in this thread- buying tampons, bras, clothing, etc.- for me these are situations where I think being female gets disrupted somewhat for many butches, because society really isn't set up for the way we do female or woman. So I don't think it makes me feel more female or more woman, but just is a reminder that I don't fit society's ideas of what female and woman are.

I think I am most consciously aware of being female and woman in terms of women's issues, feminism, etc.- more from a political standpoint, since I feel my gender is butch. So unequal pay, sexism, etc.- those are my issues too.

Being around femmes definitely heightens my awareness of being butch. It does around other butches as well, but in a different way. For me it's about energy. I don't feel more butch, but yes my senses are heightened.

Certain activities heighten my sense of being butch also. Going to the barbershop and getting my hair cut does. I know not all butches go to barbershops or have short hair. That doesn't make me more butch than another butch. It's just the experience for me is butch, when I go out get my hair cut, go out for a burger afterwards. It's like my butch spa day. I feel quite butch when I am working out or playing sports. So there are certain activities that heighten my awareness also.

I'm not sure if any of this is what you are trying to discuss Ascot, but great thread.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I think I am most consciously aware of being female and woman in terms of women's issues, feminism, etc.- more from a political standpoint, since I feel my gender is butch. So unequal pay, sexism, etc.- those are my issues too.

I totally feel like this. I see myself as a woman and female and as someone who stands in solidarity with other women.

Half the world's population is at the mercy of the geographical birth lottery to determine what type of inequality they will experience in life, whether they will be subjected to being owned, tortured at the whim of men, forced to marry while still a child, not allowed an education or simply do more work for less money while the control of their bodies is being legislated away from them. What happens to all women diminishes me as a woman and as a human being. I must push against this always.

I am a woman in the biological sense for certain, but even more in the political sense and the personal will forever be the political in my eyes. So regardless of my female masculinity or my masculine look, I will always be standing on the female side of the male/female equation. Because of this I am ever and always aware that I am a woman and that all the things that happen to women could easily happen to me, as the old mantra of feminism taught me, we can all be battered and raped. So the understanding that I am a woman is always in the forefront of my mind.

That being said I am also aware that I am not your average woman. I don't do woman/female like society expects. I am a butch, a masculine female and that is all I can be, to be anything else would be a lie. And I'm happy with that. So in that sense I don't think of myself as being a women or as female.

I get that sounds contradictory but I am happy enough living a contradiction. I have no trouble holding two opposing ideas. So while I never think about myself as being a woman, I never forget that I am a woman and damn proud of it.

When I shop for clothes or personal care items, or really anything at all, I have the whole store to choose from, I have everything to choose from. I am not limited by anything but my taste. I buy men's clothes and I buy women's clothes. I buy what I like regardless of what department it is placed in. I guess more than not thinking about whether I am a woman or not, I just don't think about the sex/gender of inanimate objects. I buy what I want.

[BullDog]

MT, I find myself nodding with so many of your posts. Of all the ones I have read over the years, this one definitely resonates as much as any of them.

Yes, the political is deeply personal for me. I too believe that all things that happen to women could easily happen to me, and that is one of the main reasons why I stand in solidarity with other women, even if much of the woman/female experience feels foreign to me or something I have never experienced. Not to mention the fact that we live in a very sexist world that needs to be stood up against and changed.

In most ways I do feel "all guy." I feel I have strong masculine energy, appearance, outlook and interests. I do have body dysmorphia, especially in the chest area, so the female aspect is not clear cut for me. At the same time, I was not born a male and not socialized as one. I am more connected with other women on a social, political and historical level- and for me those aspects are deeply personal.

[Ascot]

I've been thinking a lot about this. For as long as I can remember, probably longer even, because my mother was also a feminist, I have been conscious of and concerned about women's issues; socioeconomic, political, reproductive even though that didn't apply to me, per se. I support women owned businesses, I factor in women's rights whenever I vote. I've never lost sight of the fact that I am a woman and the import and precariousness of that in our world.

In my initial post used I "woman" and "female" interchangeably, and that was probably a mistake or at least misleading. I understand how that might seem strange to some, because after all, aren't they ostensibly the same thing? For me that's not necessarily the case. Maybe it breaks down along sex/gender lines. I identify my gender as Butch and that is considerably rooted in masculinity, even within the parameters of my definition of it which includes the word "female". I sometimes refer to myself as a guy, "one of the guys" "a boys' night out", etc. I consider myself a bachelor and want eventually to be a husband. While I have no desire whatsoever to be male and I don't grapple with body dysmorphia, my presentation is decidedly masculine of center. I think that's why the occasional, out of the blue reminder of my femaleness can catch me unawares even as I continue to be involved with women's causes.

[TruTexan]

I see myself as just a butch and I'm lesbian. I partner only with lesbian femmes that want a female butch. I'm female, live like a female, worked in most of my employment years in male oriented jobs because I can and liked them, and I wear men's clothing. I see myself as "one of the boys" with guy friends and other butch friends. I don't see myself or identify as male by any means. Butch as a gender is new to me as is masculine of center.
I'm 51 so a lot of the new stuff is hard for me to understand at times, and I have no friends that see themselves that way in r/t.
I see sex as either male or female and often times in my head it's still interchangeable with gender roles. I guess its how I was brought up, or how I understand things, not sure.
I do know that Butch is a noun and an adjective to me. It describes who I am inside and out. I also support women and their struggles in life and equality as well as the right to do with their bodies as they deem fit.

[RockOn]

Thanks for the topic - interesting. I'm enjoying everyone's posts here.

I identify as butch, stone for specific.

I am nodding my head as in "yes" when I read the other butches posts.

My earliest memories reflect how much I have always hated female clothes.

When I was 3 years old, I heard my great grandmother and grandmother talking about the kind of lace they intended to put on this dress they were making for me. I went to the sewing machine. There lay the dress pattern, all cut out with straight pins holding the paper pattern to the cloth. I sneakily took it to the bathroom, and flushed it down the toilet. Of course they found it because it did not go down.

Another thing so sharp in my memory is Easter Sunday when I was 5 years old. My best friend, Benny, got to wear the cutest little male suit - he even had on a bowtie with it. All day, I was so angry at having to wear this dress and patent leather shoes with ... well, I could write paragraphs about these girlie socks I had to wear. They were so not me! White with turned down cuffs, the edges of the cuffs were wavy and had these tiny pink flowers on them.

All day, I was envious of Benny. Later in the day, I took two of his easter eggs, the boiled egg colored kind, and stomped them into the sidewalk with my little patent leather shoes. He never knew why I did that, just stood there and watched me do it. I hate it to this day that I was mean to him.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by Ascot

In my initial post used I "woman" and "female" interchangeably, and that was probably a mistake or at least misleading. I understand how that might seem strange to some, because after all, aren't they ostensibly the same thing? For me that's not necessarily the case. Maybe it breaks down along sex/gender lines. I identify my gender as Butch and that is considerably rooted in masculinity, even within the parameters of my definition of it which includes the word "female". I sometimes refer to myself as a guy, "one of the guys" "a boys' night out", etc. I consider myself a bachelor and want eventually to be a husband. While I have no desire whatsoever to be male and I don't grapple with body dysmorphia, my presentation is decidedly masculine of center. I think that's why the occasional, out of the blue reminder of my femaleness can catch me unawares even as I continue to be involved with women's causes.

I have heard people identify with their sex but not with their gender in that they understand themselves as female but don't feel like a woman. They see themselves as one of the guys and talk about their butch brothers and such. I have also heard people who easily identify as female and as a woman albeit a masculine one. They don't embrace their masculinity as being necessarily male and don't see themselves as a dude. They are comfortable with being a woman and believe they just do woman differently and that's only because of society's rigid definition of how being a woman looks.

I guess I am a bit of a hybrid. I always identify with and am aware of my sex and gender. I am happy and proud to be a woman and to be female. I also don't mind being seen as one of the guys. I don't like male pronouns only because it feels erasing. I am a she and hanging on to my femininity has been a struggle for as long as I can remember. It always feels like people push you into choosing sides. Either you are male or you are female. If you present as masculine you need to turn in your female card at the door. I am a masculine woman but I'm not a guy. Yet I'm not uncomfortable being very masculine. It is who and how I am.

Ascot, you mention your presentation as decidedly masculine of center. I guess if center is a neutral presentation and one side is feminine and the other masculine then I too am decidedly masculine of center.

But I think it is difficult to tease masculinity away from male and femininity from female. I try to do it by identifying my masculinity as being female masculinity which I see as markedly different from the male variety. However society is not really capable of separating masculinity from male thus the hostility and hatred a masculine woman can experience from some people by just simply being. Often I'm initially seen as male but upon further examination something about me sounds an alarm, I don't know perhaps it's my breasts , but something gives me away as a usurper, a pretender. And that makes some people very angry. They act as though I am trying to fool them into believing I am a man, which is pretty much the last thing I am trying to do.

Yet I can't deny I do enjoy and identify with much of what is considered male. If I just simply walked like a guy for example I could put it down to an issue with my mobility. But it's much more than that. So for lack of a better word to explain myself I say masculine but i put the qualifier female in front to separate myself from man/male. But I do enjoy being one of the guys, somebody's butch brother and indulging in the occasional boy's night out. In that way it would be easy for me to say I see myself as female but I don't identity as being a woman...

...except of course I do. When I was younger how I would to try to explain these contradictions was to blame the confusion on society's definition of a woman. And I believed I could open up this definition to allow for me, I just had to keep pushing against the boundaries. I don't feel I need to open up the definition of what it means to be a woman to include me anymore. I believe it is both impossible and unnecessary because I am a woman. That is not open for debate, although you might think it could be to hear how society decides what my masculine appearance means. Regardless of what society thinks, I am a woman and I don't need to change or open the definition to include me. It already includes me and it always has. Which is why I have decided to stop acting like I need to change something about what it means to be a woman to allow for the likes of me. It already does allow for me since I AM indeed a woman. To behave as though something about woman needs to change for me to be one is just buying into society's gender insanity. What needs to change is society's gender insanity. And what I would need to do is change society's belief that woman does not include the likes of me. And that is a fool's game. I don't need permission to be a woman. I am a woman. So I will just reach out and take that definition thank you very much. I can't change the world by getting caught up in it's delusions.

I see it kind of like insisting I am a dancer to a group of dancers whose dance is defined by moving around gracefully in step with each other and in sync with the music, when my dance consists of my jumping all around while gesturing wildly and listening intently to music only I can hear. This group of dancers would feel justified in the belief that I am not a dancer. I would be hard pressed to convince them otherwise. This might not feel good to hear but the real tragedy would be if I let them convince me not to dance or if I spent my life trying to get them to see the merit in my dancing. Better that I just continue to move to the beat of my own drummer dancing in my own way and finding others who hear my music and joining with them in our own expression of what it means to be a dancer.

I have always looked masculine. It's in the way that I walk, talk, or interact with the world around me. I don't chose it, I certainly don't encourage it, neither do I discourage it. It just is. I haven't tried to pump it up or tone it down. I may have a bit of body dysmorphia although as I age i don't find it quite as distressing as it used to be. It's always been that what I see in the mirror does not reflect my idea of who I am. But I imagine a lot of people can say that for a variety of reasons. When I get all duded up and look in the mirror it is always a tad jarring. I'm like oh ya, breasts, damn what are they doing there, spoils the whole look. So perhaps in that way I am consistently surprised by being a woman. But I never forget I am a woman and female and damn happy to be so. I think the surprise comes when i am forced to confront how my idea of who and what a woman is differs greatly from what society has deemed a woman to be. Then I am confused and uncomfortable because that is not who I am.

I don't know it seems like the more words I use the less clear I am.

[Birch]

I guess I will give it a shot...

I guess what hits me like ascot was asking is when someone uses my real first name. I have had the same nickname forever...my pay stubs have it...bank stuff uses it and so on..
Every now and again I am shocked to hear the name.....via voice message or just something new in my life. In a waiting room and my name is called and the confusion and looks when I get up as THAT person.
The shock is not oh I am a woman...it's more...that's me?....in a general sense. It might just be seeing others reactions. That they are not aware of butches in general...which I completely don't get. Hopefully those moments open eyes and people in general are more aware.

I think every human is amazing in their own skin.

I also just wanted to mention something about the vitamins......
I found out a long time ago that I have very high testosterone levels...and because of this my doc told me to get men's vitamins and hair care ...hygiene products.

I hope this was on topic.

Birch

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Birch

I also just wanted to mention something about the vitamins......
I found out a long time ago that I have very high testosterone levels...and because of this my doc told me to get men's vitamins and hair care ...hygiene products.

I hope this was on topic.

Birch

I think this is good to highlight. A lot of butches will buy all male products when it isn't the right choice for their bodies, especially vitamins, which will not meet their body's needs.

Until I went on testosterone (very recently), I always bought "women's shampoo". Women's shampoos are created for cleaning hair that is grown from an estrogen based hormone system. It has nothing to do with one's sex/gender identity.

If people are uncomfortable buying body products whose ingredients are influenced by the person's sex (which not all "womens" and "mens" products are), they should consider buying unisex products. My body lotion, for example, has been "for all bodies". My face lotion has always been a "woman's" face lotion (not that I have always been good about using it!).

I know I am continuing something that may be a bit off topic, but I have never seen this discussed on BFP and I think it is important for people to know/note.

[Ascot]

I only have a minute right now, but I want to express my appreciation for how this thread is going. There has been wonderful input and insight and no one's been contentious. Regarding what some might consider veering off topic, what's a little tangentiality between friends? Viva la evolution.

[Kobi]

If I am reading this correctly, I am going to be presenting a different side.

I am an atypical female. I like and embrace my femaleness. It never sneaks up on me nor do I have to be reminded of it. It is very much a part of who I am.

With the exemption of male running shoes (last longer) and Joe Boxer socks (which I love the feel of), I shop for female clothing in stores catering to women.

I dont freak out when I have to buy products related to having a female body or have tests/exams for females. It is what it is.

I found a bra I like so I am fond of buying them in assorted colors and patterns.

Im not big on scents and prefer any soaps, lotions, shampoos to give a fresh smell and a refreshing feeling - dial, ivory, suave products do just fine. I dont understand skin care products but do peruse the Estee Lauder site when I am ordering stuff for my Mother.

I havent noticed any difference in how I feel about me around femmes. I tend to prefer those who are partial to a female partner who appreciates her own femaleness.

Occasionally, I run into something I dont quite expect. This week my gf bought a Kate Spade handbag and informed me my outfit had to fit the bag. Im not sure what this means but I am presuming it means my sweats and tees will not mingle with said bag in public. In private, I am gathering said bag will have its own shrine in the closet.

Ascot are you asking if certain products made for different sexes enhance butchness or compliment butchness, or detract from butchness?

[Ascot]

I found myself nodding whilst reading your post, Bulldog. I definitely relate to and agree with your comments about how it feels to be around other butches, going to the barbershop, etc. I think I actually chuckled aloud at "butch spa day". That's the beauty of being Butch, isn't it, that there is such a panoply of permutations on the theme.

Kobi, you say that you think yourself atypical (or did you mean to type "a typical"?) because you like and embrace your femaleness. At least that's how I read what you wrote. I think your are, in fact, in the majority. I neither dislike nor disavow mine. I wasn't asking about certain products enhancing, complimenting or detracting from anything. More, I was speaking to what one experiences when faced with choices that remind, reinforce, reiterate etc., particularly if one isn't as inclined to think about their femaleness all the time because for whatever reason it isn't in the forefront of their mind. I too am partial to women who want a female partner; it's pretty much my own definition of lesbianism. Good luck with the Kate Spade bag, lol.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Ascot

Kobi, you say that you think yourself atypical (or did you mean to type "a typical"?) because you like and embrace your femaleness. At least that's how I read what you wrote. I think your are, in fact, in the majority. I neither dislike nor disavow mine. I wasn't asking about certain products enhancing, complimenting or detracting from anything. More, I was speaking to what one experiences when faced with choices that remind, reinforce, reiterate etc., particularly if one isn't as inclined to think about their femaleness all the time because for whatever reason it isn't in the forefront of their mind. I too am partial to women who want a female partner; it's pretty much my own definition of lesbianism. Good luck with the Kate Spade bag, lol.

I meant atypical female/woman as in not a typical female/woman but still a proud female/woman very much aware of my sex all the time.

Ironically, it was the butch-femme community that made me more conscious of my femaleness, how important it was to who I am, and how important it was to me to be seen as such.

On the one hand, because I am not a femme, it feels like I am seen as something other than a female/woman. Along with that, it feels like there are assumptions and presumptions made about my having issues with being female, issues with my female body, and issues with boundaries because of my femaleness.

On the other hand, butches welcome me as a "guy", one of the "boys", or a "bro". I understand it is a form of solidarity and acceptance. Yet, it feels like this ignores my femaleness or turns it into something else.

Different things work for different people. Being a female and a woman is who I am. Being seen by others as a female and a woman is like a wow moment for me.

[Virago]

Focusing on Ascot's original question: "I am curious to hear what others experience in regards to being reminded of one's femaleness while inhabiting butch skin. Is it no big deal? Does it suck for you? Is it just kind of weird or a little annoying? Does it make you want to leap with joy?"

I am in the same direction as Kobi. My femaleness never sneaks up on me. I am female. I did go through a period of time where I considered transitioning, and struggled with the decision for about 10 years (and ironically was my most feminine during that time...I guess as a balance to my inside thoughts).

I've seen our community go through many changes during the decades I've been with it. In the eighties in New York we were NOT allowed to be Butch or Femme, but all just to the left or right of androgenous--everything equal. I mean Everything. Then Butch and Femme started to emerge strong again. we set up our own codes of conduct and felt the pressure to act a certain way (butches wore short hair, femmes wore heels). During that time I was not in balance with myself...so during that time Yes, I would be surprised at my feminine self when I felt butch inside. But now, our community has gotten so much more accepting of difference, and that has helped many of us, myself especially, accept our own differences.

So now, I do on occasion dress in a dress (a rare occasion, but it can happen). I do wear mascara and eyeliner (what can I say? I like how I look with it. I'm a Maybelline Butch ) But I am definitely butch. I am not surprised by my femaleness nor is it annoying. It also does not make me leap for joy. It just is who I am. Me. Maybelline Butch with longish hair!

[Ascot]

An interesting bit of history, Virago. Thanks for that. For many, many years I had long hair and was known to sling on some eyeliner from time to time. I get it. I feel I should clarify that my being female is not something that I ever feel ambushed by. Not once in my life have I ever had a "Holy fuck, I'm a woman!" moment. Nor am I anything akin to repulsed by it. Years ago a gay boy friend of mine said something that rather broke my heart. "When I was younger I used to pride myself on being beautiful, much like a young woman. Now, I'm aging like an old man." The way he said it, it seemed as though he was somewhat surprised by that turn of events. That's not what it's like for me. (Although in my more cantankerous moments, I might actually seem like I'm aging like an old man, lol.) I wish I could come up with an analogy that would precisely speak to how it feels to me. I think I'll sleep on it.

[Mel C.]

Not sure how I've missed this thread but I'll have to read from the beginning when I have more time. For now, I'll say that I consider myself a woman-identified butch. My clothes and personal care products are mostly "men's." I hate buying anything feminine, but acknowledge that I am female. I am okay (and maybe even like a little) being referred to as he or hy within the butch-femme community, but it irks me when a straight person refers to me as sir. I especially hate the "sir, I mean ma'am." Aargh...being female within butch is complicated.

[Ascot]

Contextually, I very much enjoy being called Sir. And, anymore, I get a kick out of seeing someone discomfited by having called me sir and then realizing I'm a woman. But I'm a sadist, so…