Butch Attire & Fashion

[Wrang1er]

I am going to a wedding at the end of July. I think I found this thread just in time.

[brownboi]

Basketball shoes/shorts, and a tee are my fave

At work, I go for the jeans/polo

[*Anya*]

A Masculine Silhouette, Tailored for Her

By BRIDGET HUBER

Mary Going, 46, a former nonprofit consultant in Oakland, Calif., wanted to wear a suit to her same-sex wedding in 2008, but found the shopping process demoralizing.

Nothing fit. Sometimes there were no dressing rooms. And salesmen looked at her funny when they realized she wasn’t shopping for a son. “They didn’t want to be serving me,” Ms. Going said. “You can feel it.”

She soon learned that she was not alone, and in 2012, Ms. Going started an online suit store, Saint Harridan, that specializes in classic men’s suits tailored for women. It joins a fresh crop of untraditional fashion brands and style blogs that cater to butch lesbians, transgender men, the androgynous and tomboys — underserved customers who might call themselves “masculine of center,” a gender-studies term for women who dress and act in ways traditionally associated with men.

It is a group long considered “tragically unfashionable,” said Jack Halberstam, a transgender professor at the University of Southern California and the author, most recently, of “Gaga Feminism: Sex, Gender and the End of Normal.” “Neither men’s nor women’s clothing fits you, and the market has absolutely nothing to make you look good.”

That is changing, thanks to clothing companies like Saint Harridan, as well as Tomboy Tailors, a custom suit maker in San Francisco; HauteButch, a clothing line from Santa Rosa, Calif.; and Marimacho, a Brooklyn label that makes shirts, vests and swimwear based on 1920s men’s bathing suits. One company, Wildfang, in Portland, Ore., was founded by Nike veterans and says it aims to liberate men’s wear, “one bow tie at a time.”

Tomboy Tailors has a retail shop in the Union Square area of San Francisco, but most are online only. Setting the trend are style blogs like dapperQ, which positions itself as a sort of GQ for the unconventionally masculine, and Qwear, which updates the heritage-chic look for women. Think pocket squares, brogues and suspenders popularized by so many men’s blogs.

The look subverts gender norms, said Susan Herr, 50, the founder of dapperQ, based in Brooklyn. “It’s not cross-dressing for me to wear a suit,” she said. “It’s cross-dressing for me to wear a dress.”

Unsure if there was enough interest in a company like Saint Harridan, Ms. Going used Kickstarter to test the waters and to raise the $87,000 she needed to meet the factory minimum. She ended up raising more than $137,000 in just over a month from 1,108 donors.

In August, Saint Harridan plans to ship its first suits, which cost $695 to $840 and are made in the United States from Italian wool. The site also sells ties, T-shirts and pocketknives. Ms. Going hopes to add Saint Harridan-designed sweaters and trousers in the future.

Putting the idea into practice brought other challenges. Unlike traditional women’s suits, which often emphasize feminine curves like breasts and hips, Saint Harridan’s suits create a masculine silhouette. To do so, every aspect of the suit was re-engineered. Shoulders were narrowed to fit smaller frames, lapels were tweaked to lie flat over the bust, and pants designed to accommodate hips.

Ms. Going wants to see female bodies in men’s suits at the bank, at the wedding altar, on the street, everywhere. To her, it’s part of a broader shift in gender norms. “Masculinity isn’t just for men,” she said.


Correction: July 11, 2013

This article has been revised to reflect the following correction: An earlier version of this article misstated Susan Herr’s age.

■

PUBLISHED JULY 10, 2013


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/11/fa...d-for-her.html

[uniquetobeme]

My GF has a job interview and we went to over 5 stores trying to find something that looks professional but not a suit and tie. Any ideas/advice? She wears men's clothing, but isn't comfortable in a suit and tie. It's tough because it seems to look really professional either you have to wear women's clothes, or go with a suit and tie option. Where is the in-between? The interview is for an Executive Administrative Assistant position.
I know she can't do this...

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by uniquetobeme

My GF has a job interview and we went to over 5 stores trying to find something that looks professional but not a suit and tie. Any ideas/advice? She wears men's clothing, but isn't comfortable in a suit and tie. It's tough because it seems to look really professional either you have to wear women's clothes, or go with a suit and tie option. Where is the in-between? The interview is for an Executive Administrative Assistant position.
I know she can't do this...

Hi, I work in a very professional environment.

I wear men's dress slacks. Not ones that are a part of a suit, but they are dressy slacks in the same sort of way. Unlike khakis (which are not dressy enough, they would have some polyester in them...or something besides all cotton).

I then wear a dress shirt that one could wear with a tie, but I just skip the tie. Do not wear a t-shirt underneath, that dresses down the outfit. Button up to the highest button before the top. I do not wear a jacket because this screams male. I already look male, this just take it too far over the edge for my line of work. So, just dress pants and a dress shirt.

The biggest errors that butches make is that they get shirts that are too big. Make sure the shoulder seam is on the shoulders. SO many butches wear shirts with the shoulders hanging past the shoulders. This looks sloppy.

Go into a store like Calvin Klein. The type of dress pants that would make sense would be hanging on a rack (not in folded stacks, which are the khaki, cotton type). Typically the shirts I would buy would be hanging on a hanger, not the ones in the clear wrapping packages. I'm sorry I don't know the verbiage on this, but the ones in the packages tend to have the buttons set up in a way that works if one wears a tie, but without a tie, the second button is too close to the top of the neck. The ones on the rack open more naturally at the neck.

Personally, I think that more fitted shirts guys are wearing look a lot better and less boxy/sloppy, if she is thin enough to wear this type. You will see signs that indicate that it is a "fitted" shirt.

Anyway, I would skip department stores and hit individual places like Calvin Klein, Banana Republic, etc. Don't be afraid to ask the sales people to help you. Just look for a gay guy. :-)

Obviously in an Exec Admin Assistant position, how nicely dressed someone looks is important. I have also learned that it is less about what one is actually wearing, and more about how well it fits one's body and if it is pressed with no wrinkles. Go for crisp lines.

Good luck.

I will send Kelt in because he knows this stuff...

[Kelt]

Dapper is spot on about fit being 80% of the impression. It is really going to depend on how your partner is built as to whether or not the mens or women's department will get the best starting point. Either way, I cannot recommend getting a tailor highly enough. It is the finishing that makes it.

If you end up buying shirts in the mens dept many times you may find the sleeves need to be shortened 1-2cm or they will bunch at the cuff and look sloppy, women's arms are proportionally a bit shorter most of the time and the shoulder is the most important fit check. If your GF is more stout it might be better to start with a women's cut for the shoulder/hip ratio but look out for darts, nuff said about that. A tailor can taper the sides to fit whatever shape needed (within reason). If your GF is smaller in stature it's another problem, I run into this and sometimes end up in boys sizes where it is harder to find quality.

Similarily, with trousers it is the "drop" that matters for your starting point. The waist to hip ratio. Typically if you are starting with a mens cut you will want the difference to be 8" inches or less, if it is more, start with a women's cut otherwise they will never hang right. It is good to look for a "split back" waistband if you can (mostly in mens or expensive women's) for ease of tailoring.

I used to have to navigate the professional dress quandary also and went with basically a suit minus the tie or would sometimes sub in a mock-t sweater of higher quality. I was in an all male environment though, so I'm not sure that would fly. If the position is going to be working with mostly men or women will likely matter. Playing to the expected audience would be safer up front and then after settling into the position more freedom might available. Right now getting the job is probably top priority. There are in-between spaces for sweaters, shorter cut jackets (Ellen), skipping jackets (like Dapper) and sometimes just going with a brighter color shirt seems to work. Personality and skills should trump all but it's the real world. It's important that your partner feels comfortable and professional.

Come back in and let us know what you come up with or if you have more questions.

[Kelt]

While on the subject of appearance, I decided to play with hair. Since I've only had 2 now 3 hairstyles in the last 30 years this is significant for me.

I knocked the corners off my flattop and am growing out the top a tad.

Going for kind of a George Clooney in "The American" look. I have a little more pepper to salt ratio but since we have a similar face shape I thought I'd try it. I'll never look good like him but we both have that longish, trending toward jowliness-with-age shape.

It's weird to look in the mirror and see a round top of head. So what did I do today but go out and buy a flat-topped hat (pork pie).

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Kelt

Similarily, with trousers it is the "drop" that matters for your starting point. The waist to hip ratio. Typically if you are starting with a mens cut you will want the difference to be 8" inches or less, if it is more, start with a women's cut otherwise they will never hang right. It is good to look for a "split back" waistband if you can (mostly in mens or expensive women's) for ease of tailoring.

Ummmm, yeah, no one knows what this means. Bring it down to the common man, Mr. Snot!

Yes, what's hard is where one starts with their body's. I went right to talking about men's clothing because uniquetobeme stated this is what her partner wore, but you do have to go with what fits correctly and then tailor it from there.

I've said it before and I will say it again...I'm so glad I can buy "off the rack"!

Kelt, it would be awesome if at some point you would share (post photos) what's going on with your hair (or when it is complete). That is a BIG step, man!

Originally Posted by Kelt

While on the subject of appearance, I decided to play with hair. Since I've only had 2 now 3 hairstyles in the last 30 years this is significant for me.

I knocked the corners off my flattop and am growing out the top a tad.

Going for kind of a George Clooney in "The American" look. I have a little more pepper to salt ratio but since we have a similar face shape I thought I'd try it. I'll never look good like him but we both have that longish, trending toward jowliness-with-age shape.

It's weird to look in the mirror and see a round top of head. So what did I do today but go out and buy a flat-topped hat (pork pie).

How bizarre! For the first time in more years than I care to remember there's hair happening here too.
Like you Kelt, I've only had a couple of hair-styles as an adult with a full, to-the-bone all over shave being the one I've had for the longest time.
At the start of the year I decided to grow a 'quiff'. The aim is a full 50s combed back, Brylcremed, Tony Curtis 'do...if I can be patient enough before shaving it all off in the summer.









From one budding Hair Bear to another...good luck dood!

[DapperButch]

Daktari! Love it!

[Kelt]

Originally Posted by Daktari

How bizarre! For the first time in more years than I care to remember there's hair happening here too.
Like you Kelt, I've only had a couple of hair-styles as an adult with a full, to-the-bone all over shave being the one I've had for the longest time.
At the start of the year I decided to grow a 'quiff'. The aim is a full 50s combed back, Brylcremed, Tony Curtis 'do...if I can be patient enough before shaving it all off in the summer.

From one budding Hair Bear to another...good luck dood!

Hey Daktari my sartorial chum!

I always like taking hints from your looks. Yeah I don't know what came over me. I missed one of my regular haircuts and it got me thinking. I crossed the fifty mark a bit ago and thought that maybe it was time to have a grown-up haircut. Then I watched a movie and thought "I could do that".

Thing is I am totally clueless how to work with it. I don't even know how it grows or what the color looks like laying down. I always just washed it and hit it with a little water based pomade to make it look like hair and not fuzz, that was it.

Now I have the time and inclination to play with it a bit and I can always just take it off if I don't like it. I'm never really more than two or three weeks away from a bad or good look. Also, starting to play with hats for more than just keeping my head warm although once again the curse of being one size too small hits here too. I have found a couple of online resources so once I have a style or two I know I like I can order size appropriate.

The haircut I've had for the last decade was a lot like this:



Doesn't work quite as well over 50. I don't want to be one of those folks who try to look 25 forever.

I have no desire to get on the hair coloring cycle I just won't put time into it. I have a hard time with more than 5 minutes max on prep. I am learning to play with other "products" I am sticking with the line that I like but trying different like types like creams/wax/etc.

The direction I'm going is more toward this: not much different but to me it is change.







I'll just have to see what happens over time and figure out where I run out of patience. I dunno, it looks pretty long to me.

[Kelt]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Ummmm, yeah, no one knows what this means. Bring it down to the common man, Mr. Snot!

Yes, what's hard is where one starts with their body's. I went right to talking about men's clothing because uniquetobeme stated this is what her partner wore, but you do have to go with what fits correctly and then tailor it from there.

I've said it before and I will say it again...I'm so glad I can buy "off the rack"!

Kelt, it would be awesome if at some point you would share (post photos) what's going on with your hair (or when it is complete). That is a BIG step, man!

Oy vey, okay breakdown. If someone has a waist of 32 (or 42, 52..) and a hip of 40 (50, 60..) the difference is 8 inches, this is the "drop". In a mens cut, that is the max there is to work with. Some female bodied people have more of a difference, say a 32 waist and a 42 hip a 10 inch difference and then they should start with a womens cut so there is enough fabric to work with. You can always take in, but you can't add what isn' there.

Also with a larger difference you can get gapping at the back of the waist and if the waistband is already split (has a seam at the back) then it can be easily altered.

Using the jargon makes it easier for me to talk to the tailor.

I have been on both ends of the spectrum and had to learn on the fly with a big weight swing up and then down.

For Dapper: Buy this book



Thank me later.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Kelt

Oy vey, okay breakdown. If someone has a waist of 32 (or 42, 52..) and a hip of 40 (50, 60..) the difference is 8 inches, this is the "drop". In a mens cut, that is the max there is to work with. Some female bodied people have more of a difference, say a 32 waist and a 42 hip a 10 inch difference and then they should start with a womens cut so there is enough fabric to work with. You can always take in, but you can't add what isn' there.

--------------------------------

You douche, I was talking about for others, not me!!

<----- see name over there.



For Dapper: Buy this book



Thank me later.

Yet another insult!!

I personally have found this one helpful.

http://www.artofmanliness.com/category/dress-grooming/

[Kelt]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Ummmm, yeah, no one knows what this means. Bring it down to the common man, Mr. Snot!

I know you know, don't get yer Calvins in a twist.

Originally Posted by DapperButch

You douche, I was talking about for others, not me!!

<----- see name over there.

Yet another insult!!

I personally have found this one helpful.

http://www.artofmanliness.com/category/dress-grooming/

Because of course calling me A) Mr Snot and B)You douche are not shots over the bow inviting recourse!

BTW, I love the hell outta that site and especially these helpful playing cards for casual stuff. That is where I tend to get lost. Formal attire has rules and a rule book so folks like me can figure it out. Casual is for people who have more creativity than a rock (as in, not me). So they help a lot.

For Other People (not Dapper who knows everything already ) the book I referenced is especially handy for vintage shopping. I provides interesting history and also subltle signs to look for that point toward quality, like which way the button hole on a gusset should be. I find that the sizes run smaller also which is a godsend for the stature challenged.

[dykeumentary]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

[COLOR="Blue"]You douche, I was talking about for others, not me!!

<----- see name over there.

Is "douche" an insult because it has something to do with woman's vagina?
Just asking for clarification.

[Kelt]

I want to re-post something that was posted on this site a little while back (I can’t remember where) because I think it is more representative of the variety of choices and how great many butches are with creativity. I personally tend to focus on mens attire but that is just me, shopping both sides of the gender isle, and kids too, yields so many more options and I like to see how people combine them.

This photographers gallery showcases all kinds of butches ranging across differing presentations, ages, and cultural backgrounds and I really enjoy it.

“BUTCH is a environmental portraiture project and exploration of the butch aesthetic, identity and presentation of female masculinity as it stands in 2013-14. It is a celebration of those who dwell outside of the stringent social binary that separates the sexes and a glimpse into the private and often unseen spaces of people who exude their authentic sense of self.” - Meg Allen

[Liam]

Apparently there is a second edition of Gentleman: A Timeless Guide to Fashion.

http://tmagazine.blogs.nytimes.com/2...ype=blogs&_r=0

[Kelt]

Originally Posted by Liam

Apparently there is a second edition of Gentleman: A Timeless Guide to Fashion.

http://tmagazine.blogs.nytimes.com/2...ype=blogs&_r=0

You're right, the original came out in 2009 and that seems to be the one referenced in this article. The one I have is the third edition from 2011 and I see now on Amazons page it shows a release date of 2012. I haven't seen anything indicating revisions to content though.

I regard it as my go to source for anything on more formal attire. Indispensable!

[Duchess]

[Duchess]