A request

[Martina]

Put it in CONTEXT, Dylan. This is backlash to the fact that some butches are talking about being women. There have been way way ruder expressions of it. And i am sure the OP was quite genuine. But that's the context.

A fair number of people on this site think that butches speaking about being women silences and marginalizes them. i am not going to track down the posts that have made that very clear. They are mostly on the other site, anyway.

The fact is that in the past butches who are women were marginalized. Their speaking now about who they are is not silencing ANYONE.

Another fact is that you have an agenda. You want to to really separate queer in this community from woman -- as in drag them as far away from each other as they can possibly go. FINE. But that's your agenda. You should really be up front about it.

Characterizing butch women who speak about who they are as part of some hegemonic discourse that is silencing to others is intentionally FORGETTING that they were the ones who were marginalized and shamed into not speaking for a long time.

The old site for a long time was very much dominated by the assumption that butches were male-identified. That is changing. That is A GOOD THING. It is not oppressing to people who are not women.

Originally Posted by Dylan

I too have been wondering how a thread about butches who consider their own gender something Other

Has turned into A) a dis on women

And B) A celebration of women

If One ID's as woman...fanfuckingtastic

If One doesn't, that person should also be given space without it becoming some sort of affront

For fuck's sake, just because One does NOT ID as women, it doesn't mean there are BAAAAAAAADDDDDDDDDDD, sexist reasons for that

And it doesn't mean that person needs a schooling in 2nd wave feminist thought

There's more types of feminism

There's more ways to be queer

And there's more ways to ID than woman


Christ On A Crutch That People Who Think They're So Fucking Amazing And Brilliant When It Comes To Gender Can't Fucking Accept Anyone Else's ID Without Considering A Dis To Their Own,
Dylan

[adorable]

Originally Posted by Martina

Put it in CONTEXT, Dylan. This is backlash to the fact that some butches are talking about being women. There have been way way ruder expressions of it. And i am sure the OP was quite genuine. But that's the context.

A fair number of people on this site think that butches speaking about being women silences and marginalizes them. i am not going to track down the posts that have made that very clear. They are mostly on the other site, anyway.

The fact is that in the past butches who are women were marginalized. Their speaking now about who they are is not silencing ANYONE.

Another fact is that you have an agenda. You want to to really separate queer in this community from woman -- as in drag them as far away from each other as they can possibly go. FINE. But that's your agenda. You should really be up front about it.

Characterizing butch women who speak about who they are as part of some hegemonic discourse that is silencing to others is intentionally FORGETTING that they were the ones who were marginalized and shamed into not speaking less for a long time.

The old site for a long time was very much dominated by the assumption that butches were male-identified. That is changing. That is A GOOD THING. It is not oppressing to people who are not women.

The issue I saw on the dash site was the sense that being male ID'd MEANT that you were trying to be a "real" butch or butchier then other butches. The default to he was being used all willy nilly instead of she. The question was asked why wasn't the natural default she? Which was a great question. Why did people default to he automatically - is that symptomatic of a greater social misogyny? That question quickly snowballed into "I am just as butch as you." This is where it gets tricky because it is at this moment that the two sides seperated.....

One side is saying because that is how I feel inside and the other side is saying that is how I feel inside...
And neither side is speaking to the actual question of why the natural default isn't she....which still IS a great topic for discussion. But it didn't solve the default problem because people were all jumping up and down for their individuality.

Yet, everyone still felt the same way on the inside and wanted to be respected for who they were. And lots of people had no idea wtf to default too because no one wanted to trample on people's insides, yet still wanted to talk to each other.

THE WONDERFUL thing about this site is the addition of the box over there
<----------------- which SOLVES the problem of how individuals want to be addressed. Default to anything no longer an issue. We can all be who we are and it be respected. YAY!

So now, with the box people can easily represent how they feel on THE INSIDE. I feel "she" on the inside. Not everyone does, I can tell because I look at the box and if I see "he" I know that means they feel "he" on the inside. Some people may not feel he or she on the inside so they could put something else in their box.

Can we ever have a question about why the default tends to be He instead of She? I doubt it. He and She are big parts of people's identities. And while I can stand back and see what happened, getting those who are mired up to their eyeballs to see what happened just doesn't seem to work.

It is almost getting comfortable for the two sides to just keep accusing the other of silencing - when in fact - they actually probably agree on the the idea that defaulting to he doesn't make a lot of sense and is a great question.

They really only disagree about how they feel inside for themselves. Which has nothing to do with the default being he as a bigger social issue...

For whatever reason they will not see as two seperate issues that have all got entangled together. So lets just keep with the lines in the sand and the argument over who's insides are more valid.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Martina

Put it in CONTEXT, Dylan. This is backlash to the fact that some butches are talking about being women. There have been way way ruder expressions of it. And i am sure the OP was quite genuine. But that's the context.

A fair number of people on this site think that butches speaking about being women silences and marginalizes them. i am not going to track down the posts that have made that very clear. They are mostly on the other site, anyway.

The fact is that in the past butches who are women were marginalized. Their speaking now about who they are is not silencing ANYONE.

Another fact is that you have an agenda. You want to to really separate queer in this community from woman -- as in drag them as far away from each other as they can possibly go. FINE. But that's your agenda. You should really be up front about it.

Characterizing butch women who speak about who they are as part of some hegemonic discourse that is silencing to others is intentionally FORGETTING that they were the ones who were marginalized and shamed into not speaking for a long time.

The old site for a long time was very much dominated by the assumption that butches were male-identified. That is changing. That is A GOOD THING. It is not oppressing to people who are not women.

Martina,

When you say, "This is a backlash," what is the 'this'? Are you talking about the OP, or are you talking about my post? I kinda get the idea you're saying the OP is a backlash. And honestly, I just don't see it. The OP was referring to the fact that some butches just don't ID as 'woman'. Just like some femmes don't ID as 'woman'. Why is that seen as a 'backlash' to women?

But then, of course, when Another ID talks about their own ID, it's naturally a 'backlash' and an affront to women. Talking about another ID under the queer umbrella is always seen as victimizing women in one form or another. The perpetual victimhood of women...another reason I moved out of 2nd wave rhetoric, and into 3rd and 4th wave.

EVERY butch has been marginalized...not just women butches. E.V.E.R.Y. Butch.

Women butches, once again, don't get a special ticket on the EXTRA marginalized than anyone else on this site.

When they hijack a thread about Another's identity...they ARE silencing.

Ahhhh, and of course, I have an agenda. And of course, my agenda is 'separate'. Naturally. My 'agenda' is that ALL IDs on a QUEER website get to rejoice and dance around the fire without having to make excuses, take a bunch of flack, explain to others why they don't ID as This or That, and so on. But ANYONE who says, "I don't ID as woman" is immediately met with suspicion and the dogma of the 2nd wavers.

"Behold my dogma and rhetoric and conform to it...because if you don't, you're not a REAL feminist, and you're just a misogynist"

Again...another reason I stepped into 3rd and 4th wave.

There's no secret 'agenda', and if fact that sounds like all the repub fundies with their 'gay agenda' rhetoric. And once again, it perpetuates the victimhood 2nd wave loves loves loves to hold onto.

But, you'll continue to think any other ID than 'woman' has an 'agenda'. It's NOT that I believe all IDs on a QUEER website should be able to throw a party to celebrate their queeerness as they see fit...no, it's always about women being silenced and victimized.

It's always an affront to women, isn't it? Everything that 2nd wavers don't like is an affront and a victimization. Even when some women ID'd folks won't let others have a conversation about how they don't ID as women.

EVERYONE on this site has been silenced and shamed into silence. Every.single.person. Again, women don't have a special ticket on the Oppression Train.

Whether the old site was this or that has no relevance on how people act in this thread. And I don't even see why you're bringing male Id'd butches up in this thread. The OP didn't say anything about Male ID'd anything.

And what? So, since women butches were oppressed on the old site, they get to stomp all over everyone else's QUEER id on this site? They get to overtake any thread they want, because they were oppressed on the old site? Does that mean every other oppressed group from the old site gets to barge into any old thread they want and wave their finger of victimhood all over too?

This thread wasn't started about women butches. It was started as a 'please recognize This ID too without lumping me into the wrong group'.

Some butches are women ID'd...go start another celebration thread about it.

Some butches are male ID'd...yay! Oh, wait, they're not supposed to celebrate, because that's not nice and victimizes women.

Some butches are just butch ID's and not women or male ID'd...oh wait, that's an affront and a backlash to women too. Hush your celebrating.

Some femmes ID other than woman also...how come that's never talked about...oh wait...when it was they were told they were just confused and again, it was an affront to women.

This is a QUEER website. Not a woman or lesbian website. The owners have stated that. Barging into threads that have nothing to do with your ID is rude, obnoxious, and policing. Not everyone here is 'woman' and not everyone here is a 2nd waver.


Dylan

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Dylan

But then, of course, when Another ID talks about their own ID, it's naturally a 'backlash' and an affront to women. Talking about another ID under the queer umbrella is always seen as victimizing women in one form or another. The perpetual victimhood of women...another reason I moved out of 2nd wave rhetoric, and into 3rd and 4th wave.

Always Dylan? LOL. Perpetual victimhood. LOL. Who's crying now?

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Martina,


EVERY butch has been marginalized...not just women butches. E.V.E.R.Y. Butch.

Women butches, once again, don't get a special ticket on the EXTRA marginalized than anyone else on this site.

No kidding. How is that a response to anything i said? Re the backlash, people have said they didn't feel welcome anymore BECAUSE butch women were posting about being butch and women. i don't get that.

Originally Posted by Dylan

Ahhhh, and of course, I have an agenda. And of course, my agenda is 'separate'. Naturally. My 'agenda' is that ALL IDs on a QUEER website get to rejoice and dance around the fire without having to make excuses, take a bunch of flack, explain to others why they don't ID as This or That, and so on. But ANYONE who says, "I don't ID as woman" is immediately met with suspicion and the dogma of the 2nd wavers.

DO not characterize me as a second waver. You don't know my politics. i don't even follow some of this, Dylan. The pun on separate? Point? Yeah, i know that is your agenda. i think that characterization of the reaction to it is wildly overstated.

Originally Posted by Dylan

"Behold my dogma and rhetoric and conform to it...because if you don't, you're not a REAL feminist, and you're just a misogynist"

What is with you, Dylan? You do this a lot. You put words in people's mouths. It's hostile. It's rude. It exaggerates their position. Why do you do it?

Originally Posted by Dylan

Again...another reason I stepped into 3rd and 4th wave.

There's no secret 'agenda', and if fact that sounds like all the repub fundies with their 'gay agenda' rhetoric. And once again, it perpetuates the victimhood 2nd wave loves loves loves to hold onto.

i know it's not secret. You've stated it. Why, again, the paranoia, the comparison to fundies. What, what, what are you accomplishing beyond ad hominem attacks?

Re second and third wave, you've got my goat, so i am just gonna assert my creds. i studied Kristeva, Irigary, Cixous, Haraway, Butler etc. under some of the greatest scholars of their generation. Wanna talk post-second wave feminism? Let's do it.

The idea of accusing anyone who is on this site of second wave feminism is ridiculous.

Yeah i don't want to share some experiences with some men. Guess, what? i don't have to. That does not make me anything you are accusing me of.

Originally Posted by Dylan

But, you'll continue to think any other ID than 'woman' has an 'agenda'.

And i said that where? The only person i said had an agenda is you. Do i think some folks are reacting because butch women have spoken up? Yes. That is not saying they have an agenda.

Originally Posted by Dylan

NOT that I believe all IDs on a QUEER website should be able to throw a party to celebrate their queeerness

i think so too -- as long as there is the queerness as part of it. .

Originally Posted by Dylan

..no, it's always about women being silenced and victimized.

Exaggerate much? Dylan, for you it's rarely about that. You take opportunities to rephrase situations and arguments so they lack any feminist critique at all. i have seen it. Once i called you on it. Something about it bothers you. Clearly.

Originally Posted by Dylan

It's always an affront to women, isn't it? Everything that 2nd wavers don't like is an affront and a victimization. Even when some women ID'd folks won't let others have a conversation about how they don't ID as women.

"Everything" and "always" -- how is anyone supposed to respond to that?

No one is stopping anyone from having any conversation. How can that even be done?

Your repeated characterization of me and others as second wavers is ABSURD. Second wave feminism has been integrated to the feminism of people of this generation, but no one who is alive and reading and participating in the world has not moved past it. For god's sake i fought the sex wars against second wave feminists.

Originally Posted by Dylan

EVERYONE on this site has been silenced and shamed into silence. Every.single.person. Again, women don't have a special ticket on the Oppression Train.

Just because everyone has had some experience of it does not mean they don't do it to others and that specific instances and patterns should not be brought up. Who EVER said women have a special ticket? WHY, DYLAN, do you argue by putting words on other people's mouths, characaturing and exaggerating their positions? Do you think that's effective?

Originally Posted by Dylan

Whether the old site was this or that has no relevance on how people act in this thread. And I don't even see why you're bringing male Id'd butches up in this thread. The OP didn't say anything about Male ID'd anything.

Again, i don't really care what thread or whatever. The direction of the argument was bringing this up again. i am sorry if the OP and others lost some space. i am not trying to rob anyone of anything.

Originally Posted by Dylan

And what? So, since women butches were oppressed on the old site, they get to stomp all over everyone else's QUEER id on this site? They get to overtake any thread they want, because they were oppressed on the old site? Does that mean every other oppressed group from the old site gets to barge into any old thread they want and wave their finger of victimhood all over too?

"Stomp all over" and "Wave their finger of victimhood" -- that's a real good way to build solidarity. It's rude, Dylan.

Originally Posted by Dylan

This thread wasn't started about women butches. It was started as a 'please recognize This ID too without lumping me into the wrong group'.

Some butches are women ID'd...go start another celebration thread about it.

Some butches are male ID'd...yay! Oh, wait, they're not supposed to celebrate, because that's not nice and victimizes women.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, there are expressions of male energy that can alienate and even trigger others -- not all of whom are women, by the way. i do not deny saying this. THat does not mean that i or anyone am ANYBODY's VICTIM. i sure as hell am not.

Originally Posted by Dylan

Some butches are just butch ID's and not women or male ID'd...oh wait, that's an affront and a backlash to women too. Hush your celebrating.

i don't understand what you're saying.

Originally Posted by Dylan

Some femmes ID other than woman also...how come that's never talked about...oh wait...when it was they were told they were just confused and again, it was an affront to women.

Where is this coming from?

Originally Posted by Dylan

This is a QUEER website. Not a woman or lesbian website. The owners have stated that. Barging into threads that have nothing to do with your ID is rude, obnoxious, and policing. Not everyone here is 'woman' and not everyone here is a 2nd waver.

Who has ever ever made that assumption on this website -- that everyone is a woman and a second wave feminist or should be? That has never been the case at any time on either website.

No kidding it's a queer website. i hope it stays that way.

[friskyfemme]

This has been interesting reading. I just want to share something with ya'll. I grew up in the midwest. We referred to everyone as 'you guys'. My mother, however, was insulted when a waitress in a restaurant greeted her, myself, and my sisters with how are 'you guys' today. My mother retorted 'do you see any guys at this table?' Though none of her daughters even realized the wording, it did make me aware that it really was not appropriate for our server to address us that way. She meant no disrespect I am sure, but I would hope that my mother speaking up made her more aware of how she could be preceived. So ya'll take a lesson! Being respectful, is not about what is comfortable for you. It's about what is comfortable for the person you're addressing. As well as, being compassionate is 'not assuming disrespect' is about assuming ignorance of the part of other person. We need to be more tolerant and kinder to each other while we as a non-hetro group are emerging into a cohesive force to be reckoned with.
Love and Light.

[AtLast]

Does anyone know which topic area the thread about male vs masculine is located in?

That thread is a good one to ponder the female-bodied, non-woman identification of some members.

I'll keep looking for the link. I learned a lot in reading it.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Does anyone know which topic area the thread about male vs masculine is located in?

That thread is a good one to ponder the female-bodied, non-woman identification of some members.

I'll keep looking for the link. I learned a lot in reading it.

Here you go... http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...read.php?t=408

[tantalizingfemme]

Thanks for the link AtLast and Metropolis.... I remember reading it when it was active.


P.S Dylan, thanks for your pointed post, I thought it was just me.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by tantalizingfemme

Thanks for the link AtLast and Metropolis.... I remember reading it when it was active.


P.S Dylan, thanks for your pointed post, I thought it was just me.

You are welcome and thanks to Met- I was going nuts trying to find it again. I honestly think there are many things stated in it that do address the female-bodied butch who does not include woman as part of their identity and has information from members that goes to Dapper's request without bringing sexism along with it.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

During the 12+ years that I have been a part of the online b/f community, there has always been an acknowledgment that not all female identified butches define as women. Posts have always reflected this awareness.

In the threads that I have been reading over the last several months (including the current ones in the trans zone), on this site, it seems as though the words, at times, are starting to be used interchangeably (female and woman), or we, at least are maybe moving towards that.

Although I am a TG Butch (I do not identify as a "female identified butch", or a "male identified butch"), I am still "butch" and it hurts my heart a little (which is simply WEIRD in and of it itself, lol), when I see this happening. It was nice to be a part of a community that separated out one's sex (female), from one's gender (woman).

I think (my theory) that the reason this is occuring is b/c several of our more verbal female id'd butches on this site define as both female and women, so the term "butch women" seems to be used a lot (as a natural form of expression for them). It seems as though when the site first started, care was taken to separate out female from women as it was at the other popular b/f sites, but that kind of slid away here.

I am writing this post as a reminder that many butches do not define as women and to request those peeps who are open to respecting this, try to reflect this in the wording of their posts.

(I hope that this post is read in the earnest, sincere, and genuine way in which it was written..and not in a "sense of entitlement" sort of way. I do not think that I am the only one who is concerned about this issue).

Thanks.

Well, I am quite amazed at some of the hostility but not really surprised at the responses here. The bolded portion is what I responded to. I was never hostile towards Dapper nor hys id (which is neither butch woman or female identified butch). I haven't seen anyone be hostile towards the OP and there wouldn't be any reason to be so.

There are great threads discussing butches who don't id as women as well trans threads on this site. I haven't seen any disruption of them whatsoever and have seen butch women express their appreciation in them.

I will say for the third time here- I think there needs to be more discussion of women (butch as well as other women) in butch femme communities, not less. I will work towards trying to help create more positive spaces instead of butting up against openly hostile people. I have started a thread for Dykes and Lesbians as well as Friends and Allies. Everyone is welcome. Heart started a thread on Women as well. I hope there are more discussions about Women on this site and that people of all genders participate in them. There are other interesting topics that do not pertain to Women specifically to discuss as well.

Best Wishes,
BullDog

[chefhottie25]

This is an interesting topic. I identify as a boi...although most of the heterosexual people in my life refer to me as butch. I am slowly educating them. My dad and best friend both get it and call me a boi. However, at work(i am a chef) I am aware of the woman in me. There are no other women that work in the kitchen. My co-workers view me as a woman, but again I am slowly educating them on the boi construct. On a few occasions some of my co-workers have told me that I cook like a guy, or that I am like a guy because I engage in the conversations about which servers are hot, and because I am not obviously upset by their banter and name calling amongst one another. So, I guess that this thread as got me thinking about how I identify. I know I am a boi...but I have been called both he and she. Neither one really matters to me. I guess I have some more thinking to do.

[Dylan]

Martina,

If you started a thread to discuss femme/your gender and to discuss how sometimes your gender is sometimes lumped erroneously with another's gender, and a bunch of butches came into that thread and started discussing how A) your gender is automatically disrespectful to theirs, and B) why don't you ID as butch? and C) celebrated being butch and D) mocked you and started having poking and jabbing conversations about femmes/your gender...would you feel your femme/your gender thread were the right place for that celebration?

Aside from that, you're right...I generalized your personal post. For that, I apologize. It's not fair to you. Again, I'm sorry.


Dylan

P.S. Butler is heinous

[lisa93]

I never realized this before.

[Nat]

Originally Posted by Jackhammer

In my mind there are many roads that go in different directions that we all have traveled, and no matter how different our experiences and results have been, we share the most important thing in common. Every damn one of those roads were like sharp gravel under bare feet, so no matter how you identify on this website- to me, we are all brave, fearless and deserve respect.

This is beautifully stated.

[amiyesiam]

Originally Posted by Jackhammer

Under our names in the custom pronoun field is a place to accommodate how we prefer to be addressed, we incorporated it into the website because we felt it would help all of us approach each other in a more genuine and respectful manner. Using a pronoun that negates an identity chosen by a member isn't taken lightly by this website, because it does matter to some of those many brave folks who make up this diverse community and fill it out.

There will never be a default for ALL of us, just like there will never be a true universal toilet flapper for all toilets, or one cutting blade that fits all lawn mowers.
I heard people say that it was a shame that we even have to have a box for pronoun preference because the default "should" be x, y or z. The way I see it, it is never a shame to empower someone with the ability to self-identify or make space for people to be honored.

The pronoun field, I know, some don't care for, however I think it is wonderful. Anything that allows me to know, before I engage someone, what their pronoun preference is, can only be a good thing. I don't want to disrespect anyone or look like I am trying to be disrespectful when I wouldn't do such a thing.