Butch visibility

[Bino85]

This is such a great topic. I have been a very visible Butch for over a decade. Its something I have had to grow into. I have always been very confident and comfortable with the way I look. It's just me. I get called Sir or young man all the time. It always makes me smile, i never correct anyone. I think of it like a compliment they dont know they are giving. Even my father introduces me to people as his other son.
Reading through there posts I really feel for some. I been very lucky in my part of the world. People seem pretty accepting. Although i feel ya'll on the bathroom front. My first time getting called out in the bathroom I was 18. It was a little girl (maybe 4). She asked her mom why there was a boy in the bathroom. After that my path was so clear. I get looks and comments all the time in public bathrooms. I think its funny, I just smile say hi and go about my business. When Im at the bar I always take a buddy. Drunk women get very defencive, but I would rather deal with drunk women then drunk dudes. Lucky for me all the bounced i have met that came to kick me out of the bathrooms always know right away what is going on. I have yet to be thrown out of a bar.
I am very comfortable with who i am and how i look. I feel like I rock the look. I know Im lucky have had so much positive support in my life. Props to all who rise to the top though the struggle.

Oh, someone was talking about scanning crowds for trouble makers. I do the same thing! Im sure I always will.

[mountainbikedyke]

Great thread!

I've never really had many negative issues while moving through life as a masculine woman... I'm comfortable with who I am and confident in all aspects of my life, and have been extremely lucky to have such a supportive family.

I have also had two careers where being masculine in appearance and dominant in personality has been to my advantage, and I know I'm lucky in this respect as well. Being sturdily built has also benefitted me.

It's appalling to me that my butch comrades have endured such treatment at the hands of ignorant fuckers! Knowing myself, I probably wouldn't have handled someone getting physical with me in as civilized a manner as those who have posted above.

Sadly, I have to say the most discrimination I've witnessed as a butch has been within the lesbian community. Butches, because of our outward appearance, got the shit kicked out of us in the past (Some still do, clearly.) and really paved the way for our community, only to now be seen as some sort of sub-culture.

[Paradox]

Great Thread.

I haven't had any dangerous issues with visibility and perhaps here in Canada there is more tolerance (not perfect by no means). I have heard of the rude, derogatory comments some of my friends received because of their appearance. There's a price to pay - the public scrutiny, community ridicule. It's like going through high school all over again. I always been thick skinned, but there are times that it is annoying can be hurtful.

I've experienced the 'what are you?' look on the faces of people I would meet for the first time who can not figure out if I am male or female. I don't scream dyke 24/7 but for many I look like a lesbian/butch. I received the double take in regard to the public washrooms on occasion, but again luckily nothing that would involve any confrontation.

Growing up tomboy, wearing my dads sweaters whenever I can, and preferring tees and slacks/jeans over skirt and dress is more natural for me.

I don't necessarily go out of may way to 'be' butch or non-femme. I have a naturally stronger masculine features. And it can be beneficial at times as I am not easily harassed. But at the same time there are the assumptions of what a butch should wear or how they should behave. However, there some nice, intelligent folks, as one friend who was smart enough to know that even though I look butch, (especially stereotypical idea that butch must = tough and rough), he understood due my height and size the odds of me moving around rolls of flooring by myself that was practically as tall as I am and weighting almost 500lbs ea is unlikely and got me the help I needed. He did not place misconceived assumptions about me because of a label, but used some practical sense.

Public displays of affection is not my cup of tea, and I am even more cautious when I am with a date or when I was in a relationship simply because people can be stupid and do stupid things. Much rather prevent an incident from happening as I don't handle stupid very well.

[Soon]

Thoughts On Being A Butch

(by intheweeds on GroupThink/Jezebel)


"The game is basically surviving as a being a butch woman"

I recently came across this documentary called 'The Butch Mystique' from 2003. It's a wonderful film in which 9 Black butch lesbians speak about their experiences, thoughts and feelings. I urge you to watch it. If you are a butch, you will feel like I did - relieved and excited to hear others voicing your experiences. You will feel less alone for a few minutes. If you are straight or queer, but not butch, you will certainly learn something about the butch experience. The perspective of Black butches is also something we can all stand to hear from. Being misread as a male is an issue all butches have, but in part 2, we hear what it's like to be misread as a Black male.


(Videos of documentary: The Butch Mystique from 2003)

Watching this made me think about my own experiences, both with straight people and other lgbt people who do not share my experiences. Here are a few of them.

Am I trans? No. I have decided that some time ago. Butch women are women. I am a woman. Certainly though, my gender presentation is an integral part of my identity. I am read as male in most places. Even in the queer community, I feel a pressure to identify as trans at times. It's easier for people to understand, I think. Even myself. For some time when I was younger I played with it. I wore a packy, I bound my breasts (I really hate my breasts existence, even still I'm not comfortable with them), I took on a male name. Maybe I was a supposed to be a straight man? While I knew I would never be a feminine woman, I never felt quite right giving up my female identity completely. Eventually I realized that I could be both a woman and very masculine. Listening to the difference between the older and younger women in the documentary was interesting to me. I felt my identity as butch kind of disappearing recently. It was interesting to me to hear a younger woman talking about 'butch' as a title being for the older generation. It's clear that the name may not be used as often, but maybe butch isn't going away.

It's clear to me though, that sexual identity and gender identity are related in many people. Butch lesbians are a good example of this. While the gender and sexuality spectrums are not the same, they overlap in some people. As far as my experience, straight butch women are not really a thing. I have met many straight women who don't buy into the performance of gender, many who are more masculine than most, but I have never met anyone who I would consider a 'straight butch' (I reserve the right to change my mind if I ever meet one). I have never met a straight woman who is butch like I am and like I recognize in this film. This is clearly a lesbian phenomenon as far as I can see. It cannot simply be that butches are just very close to trans men on the gender spectrum, just not quite there. That cannot be so, since we know that trans men come in all sexuality, but butch as I am and as is portrayed in this film, it seems, is a lesbian specific identity. It seems to me that butch is a lesbian identity which is inherently also on the trans spectrum somewhere.

Because of this, it is entirely possible to be homophobic by being transphobic. I feel my lesbian identity being assaulted when I hear an assault against a trans person. After all, I basically look like a non-passing trans man every day. In fact, often I can and do pass as a man. Frankly, it's safer to pass than not. Any trans person will tell you that and it is the same for me. So if I can get away with it by lowering my voice or not speaking much, sometimes I will. I had an entire 20 minute lowered-voice conversation with a cab driver once on my way to my mom's and had him tell me my mother should be proud of such a 'great son' at the end of it. I have no way of knowing whether he would have thought the same if he knew I was a woman but I didn't feel like finding out that day.

Another thought I had while watching this was that I, like some of these women, feel like I am in a small minority. It's not often that I find myself in a room with another butch. Queer people are everywhere, but those that share my unique experiences are far between for me, it seems. It was so refreshing to hear. The bathroom issues, the faked and forced femininity for family, the violence. The violence from men. The pain and hurt it causes that we don't acknowledge enough. The pain in this woman's face when she was speaking about men's reactions to her was so apparent and familiar to me. It crushed me because I recognized it as my truth as well.


Butches are subject to hatred and violence from men because we don't perform for them. Seriously. That is how much men expect women to please them. If you refuse too much, some will literally fight you. We stand in the furthest spot from pleasing them that they can think of - we are almost men. My experience has been one of three reactions from men. The first is the best and the one we all want to achieve: a normal dude with no hangups treats me like a normal person. The other two are not as positive. Either they hate me or they want to be my best friend because I am one of the guys, but as a woman, I can help them with other women or other such bullshit. While it's nice to be joked around with and treated well, I am well aware of the differences between how they treat me and how they treat other women. They don't see me as a real woman and that plays into so many lesbian stereotypes I can't even.

On the subject of stereotypes, I am aware that I embody them. So many lesbian stereotypes are basically about the freaky, ugly wanna-be-men butches. Lesbians all look like men, lesbians love power tools, lesbians all cut their hair short, lesbians are ugly (read: lesbians do not perform femininity for men - this is a big problem for them). I have heard from certain members of the lgbt community that "if i didn't insist on looking like such a dyke, I would experience less oppression". That is pretty close to a direct quote from one example, but I have heard this sentiment from many people both straight and lgbt.

The fact that I am the 'freak' the straight people latched onto to deride and mock lesbians means that I am bad for the cause to some people. I tend to rage pretty strongly against this line of thinking whenever I hear it winding up, but the reason I rage so hard is that this thought is already a part of my internal dialogue! I rage when I hear this because do you think I don't fucking know that? Of course if I looked and acted more like the 'ideal' straight white person that I would experience fewer problems. I don;t know if many butches talk about this, but the pressure to be anything but me is so strong. It seems so easy to just grow out your hair, wear clothes from the women's department, but it's not. I play with trying out women's things sometimes, maybe I should try and wear eyeliner? I could try that. Maybe I would look a tiny bit more like a woman and people would believe I was a woman? It wouldn't be much and I would still be me right? That eyeliner is gathering dust in my medicine cabinet right now. I'm just not cut out to be feminine.

I can't change. Even if I tried. Even if I wanted to.

[Soon]

Photographer Meg Allen Explores 'Butch Imagery' With New Project

Oakland-based photographer Meg Allen embarked on a photography project last spring to explore how the idea of a "butch" woman has changed over time.

Allen joined HuffPost Live's Marc Lamont Hill on Friday to talk about what exactly she was trying to understand with her work.

"I really wanted to show the variety of butch women that were in my community," Allen said. "There had been a lot of social media and Instagram and all these things, and I felt like there was this lapse in butch imagery, so I really wanted to kind of bring that back to the limelight.”

The discourse around butch women has certainly changed over time. Some feel there has been a shift in how younger generations evaluate sexual identity. Allen said the term "butch" includes many more types of people than it did before:

"There has been a lot of terms changing over the last 10 years. A lot of people use 'masculine of center,' or they’ll use 'boi' [spelled] b-o-i, or 'stud.' And I think traditionally the word was generally more of a white term for more masculine women, and so I just wanted to explore if that term is still relevant and what it looked like. It was more an exploration into what does that word mean, what does it look like now, and I that found it meant a variety of things, which is why I’ve taken so many different types of portraits of different types of butch women."
Below are examples of some of Allen's work from her "Butch" project:

[TruTexan]

Bumping because it's worth reading again!

PS. I don't care what people say or think about how I dress, or appear to them. It's my life and I don't have any regrets nor do I have any give a fucks about walking into a woman's restroom and being stared at for it. I just walk in, head held high, go into the stall, do my business, then wash my hands and dry them and leave..PERIOD.
I can wear a dress and heels and still look butch no doubt, there's no mistaking me for a femme at all.

Have a great day being butch or femme or however you ID.

[Ascot]

I went to church today for the first time in decades. I was invited by a friend whose fiancé was singing in the choir, and since it was Unitarian service I figured the likelihood of my bursting into flames was fairly slim. If I may say so, I wore a pretty great tie. It felt good to get spiffed up and be comfortable enough in my own skin to have fun with it. There's been a lot of talk lately about man spreading;guys sitting with their legs fairly wide apart, taking up more than their necessary share of space. I confess that I was probably a bit guilty of doing the butch version of that today.😏

[Ascot]

In the last couple of weeks I've been told by three people that they had no idea I was gay. I don't even know what I think about that. Evidently I've been walking around with the erroneous assumption that I read like a big ol' homo to everybody. To be clear, two are passing acquaintances, and the other was a complete stranger. The last one, the stranger, actually I guess it was four people total because there were two women together that I've lumped into the stranger category. I met them when I was geocaching on Saturday, an older gal and a woman I'm thinking was her mother. I told them a little bit about what I was doing, and they seemed to find the whole idea very appealing. They even helped me look for the cache. A couple minutes into the conversation I said, "By the way, I'm Lise." The younger of the two women told me her name, and then gestured to the older woman and said,"And she's Gay." I'm sure you can see where this is going. I just couldn't help myself. I say,"Hey, me too!" Nothing. It seemed pretty clear that even though I declared it, these women just didn't see it. I think it didn't even remotely occur to them. I do realize that it could be a generational thing. Or, I suppose it is possible that they got it, and so didn't care that they didn't even react. Hmm...

I'm usually recognized by other queer folks, and that is a lovely thing. I think my investment in wanting to be seen as gay by nonqueer people has to do with putting out the message that we are everywhere and that's cool. I'm certainly not looking to have that be my sole or even a major identifier, but I still like there to be an awareness of it. Do you guys care if people know?

[Cin]

Originally Posted by Ascot

I'm certainly not looking to have that be my sole or even a major identifier, but I still like there to be an awareness of it. Do you guys care if people know?

I don't even know what it would be like for people not to "know". I'm not sure what exactly they do know though. I look, talk, walk and act in ways that are identifiable to most people as masculine so when the world looks at me, especially just in passing, they see male. I don't actively choose it; it just is. Of course there is enough woman in there to make a longer look or an interaction a tad confusing. Some people do a double take of sorts. Many correct themselves and use female qualifiers. Do they know? I imagine they do. But I'm not sure exactly what they believe they know. It's seems to be more about how I look than who I love.

Being queer doesn't seem to upset people as much as my bopping about with all my female masculinity on display. In my experience, homosexuality is easier for many to deal with than not presenting as society believes one of your gender should present.

[Ascot]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

Being queer doesn't seem to upset people as much as my bopping about with all my female masculinity on display. In my experience, homosexuality is easier for many to deal with than not presenting as society believes one of your gender should present.

I think you make an excellent point. I might be wrong about this, but I tend to think that masculinely presenting women still have it easier than femininely presenting men.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

Being queer doesn't seem to upset people as much as my bopping about with all my female masculinity on display. In my experience, homosexuality is easier for many to deal with than not presenting as society believes one of your gender should present.

Spot on. It has been interesting to me that when this has come up in conversation with cisgender, heterosexual women (friends), they are always surprised to hear me say this. I have to go through it with them for a bit before they say, "oh, yeah....you're right" with a light bulb going on for them.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by Ascot

I might be wrong about this, but I tend to think that masculinely presenting women still have it easier than femininely presenting men.

It is certainly true that in a patriarchy masculinity is revered hence well guarded, especially along the borders where slippage can occur. Toward that end, gender in general is heavily policed in order to ensure a presentation that fits within society's definition of male and female. There appears to be more flexibility within female to explore gender as long as the exploration remains confined to acceptable areas and the explorer looks feminine. Certainly in fashion we see this.

I am inclined to believe this has more to do with the hatred of the feminine and the adoration of the masculine than any purposeful willingness to overlook masculinity in a female package. The tendency to punish male homosexuality, hell the separation of homosexual behavior into male and female supports this theory. In certain areas of the world female homosexuality isn't even recognized so their is no law against it. This has nothing to do with a love or a reverence for things female. It is misogyny at its most complex and bizarre.

This would explain why femininity in a man is not tolerated to any degree whereas woman are not required to adhere to such a complicated set of rules. The illusion is that women have more freedom to express themselves within their gender than men. The reality is that masculinity is actively and relentlessly guarded and defended. So a female gender presentation is not as restricted simply because it is not so valued. As children, girls have more leeway to drift slightly from the adult version of their gender than boys. This may be understood by examining the expectations of men and women in a patriarchy. It is tolerated if a girl and then a woman is willful and headstrong (seen as masculine traits) because she will be brought to heel by a man. Hopefully she will then come to understand her place, metaphorically speaking, as barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen. How can a man be expected to fulfill his duty as the master of his universe if he is allowed to indulge in behaviors traditionally seen as feminine? This model is of course not adhered to by all people, it is however the ideal on which a patriarchy is built and the fallout of centuries of this kind of belief system is deeply ingrained in our psyche. We are fed this with our pablum as infants and dutifully even cheerfully feed it to our own offspring. It is probably the thing I can think of that comes as close as I can imagine to the idea of original sin. We must unlearn this shit if we expect anything to change.

I'm not sure that the hatred for feminine masculinity is deeper and more vicious than the hatred for masculine femininity. It is certainly true that society is able to joke about feminine masculinity. We can witness this in the plethora of media depictions featuring the stereo type of the amusing queen with the heart of gold. The bull dyke hasn't found her way into the hearts of television or movie goers in quite the same way. I think society does not find masculine femininity very funny at all. Whatever that means...

But I don't think it's easy for anyone who cannot pass as clearly one gender or the other. Not that passing as a different gender is an easy road. It's just a different hard road is all.

[Soon]

Meet ‘Big Boo’: OITNB’s Lea DeLaria on Her Backstory, That Strap-On Scene, and Living Out Loud

[*Anya*]

Originally Posted by Soon

Meet ‘Big Boo’: OITNB’s Lea DeLaria on Her Backstory, That Strap-On Scene, and Living Out Loud

Thanks for posting this. I have enjoyed seeing her more fully realized as a butch lesbian this season.

[MasterfulButch]

I experienced an incident recently that made me realise just how accustomed I’ve become to getting unwanted attention (thankfully not physical) for my presentation, specifically heckling. This time though, I found myself thinking about it more because my femme was with me and I really hated that she was subjected to it. Despite being in a foreign city, the incident itself wasn’t too bad and I’ve had worse at the local supermarket but it was enough for me to realise that I’m now dealing with our potential vulnerability and not just mine. That changes things.

I wouldn’t wish this kind of negative attention on anyone and yet I find that by association, I’m exposing my most precious person. That just makes me really sad.

How do other people handle this?

[MysticOceansFL]

I've been called Syr a lot but I've never expierenced negative stuff at least not worth mentioning.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by MasterfulButch

I experienced an incident recently that made me realise just how accustomed I’ve become to getting unwanted attention (thankfully not physical) for my presentation, specifically heckling. This time though, I found myself thinking about it more because my femme was with me and I really hated that she was subjected to it. Despite being in a foreign city, the incident itself wasn’t too bad and I’ve had worse at the local supermarket but it was enough for me to realise that I’m now dealing with our potential vulnerability and not just mine. That changes things.

I wouldn’t wish this kind of negative attention on anyone and yet I find that by association, I’m exposing my most precious person. That just makes me really sad.

How do other people handle this?

I haven't had this happen while with a partner in a very long while. I mean looks and stuff, but not heckling.

Anytime I have read a story about a butch being heckled when with their femme, the femme is quick to burst out in anger and protection. I don't know if it is because it is a person with an "accepted" gender expression (which I would say most femmes have) or if it is just the shock of their reactivity to the instigator, but I have only hears positive results in these situations. Often it results in the instigator feeling embarrassed or shame.

You hear about femmes staring people down for looking at their butches in a disgusted way and things like that as well. Don't discount our femmes (not saying you are), they are some tough ladies! They have dealt with cat calls their whole lives, they know how to deal with this shit!

Is your femme expressing discomfort and anxiety due to the heckling? Unless this is her "first rodeo" with a butch, she is probably used to it.

Have you talked with her about it?

[MysticOceansFL]

Originally Posted by MysticOceansFL

I've been called Syr a lot but I've never expierenced negative stuff at least not worth mentioning.

Originally Posted by MasterfulButch
I experienced an incident recently that made me realise just how accustomed I’ve become to getting unwanted attention (thankfully not physical) for my presentation, specifically heckling. This time though, I found myself thinking about it more because my femme was with me and I really hated that she was subjected to it. Despite being in a foreign city, the incident itself wasn’t too bad and I’ve had worse at the local supermarket but it was enough for me to realise that I’m now dealing with our potential vulnerability and not just mine. That changes things.

I wouldn’t wish this kind of negative attention on anyone and yet I find that by association, I’m exposing my most precious person. That just makes me really sad.

How do other people handle this?

[MasterfulButch]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

I haven't had this happen while with a partner in a very long while. I mean looks and stuff, but not heckling.

Anytime I have read a story about a butch being heckled when with their femme, the femme is quick to burst out in anger and protection. I don't know if it is because it is a person with an "accepted" gender expression (which I would say most femmes have) or if it is just the shock of their reactivity to the instigator, but I have only hears positive results in these situations. Often it results in the instigator feeling embarrassed or shame.

You hear about femmes staring people down for looking at their butches in a disgusted way and things like that as well. Don't discount our femmes (not saying you are), they are some tough ladies! They have dealt with cat calls their whole lives, they know how to deal with this shit!

Is your femme expressing discomfort and anxiety due to the heckling? Unless this is her "first rodeo" with a butch, she is probably used to it.

Have you talked with her about it?

Thanks for the input.

My femme’s pretty savvy and certainly more street-smart than I am so it’s not her ability to deal with such situations that troubles me. I’m just bothered that she’d find herself in that position in the first place. It feels like I’m inadvertently taking away her choice as to outing herself and for situations like this where it has negative ramifications, that’s something I’m struggling to reconcile.

You make an interesting point about cat calls though. I tend not to think about them because they are outside my experience but perhaps this is not as wholly alien to her as I think (and should be to everyone).

[BullDog]

What I have experienced is that as a butch I can be subjected at any time to the type of situation that MasterfulButch described, whether I am with a femme or not. It tends to be very sporadic and random and I never quite expect it. I could be out shopping or at a restaurant and it just comes out of the blue, although most of the time I don't have any problems at all. How frequent it happens to other butches will vary of course.

My observation from what femmes and other feminine women experience is more regular, almost like a drip, drip, drip of a faucet. They may not face cat calls every single day (some women may), but there is the constant assumption that feminine women are there for men and wanting their attention and "compliments." It plays out in various ways, but it is quite consistent rather than sporadic. At least that is what it seems like from my own observations. I think that most butches don't have to experience this on a daily basis.

I find that most femmes are extremely protective of their butch partners and friends and will go Mama Bear on anyone in a heart beat.