Stone Butches

[Converse]

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

I wouldn't necessarily say that either is more relevant than the other. There are some femmes who would prefer butch to androgyne regardless of stone identity, as well as some femmes whose preference require that their partner identify as stone.

Since this is a question that you are posing to femmes, I would have to assume that majority of those responding are attracted to butches or masculine-identified partners. Androgynes would, therefore, be viewed through the lens of masculinity, I believe. For instance, I personally would be okay with dating an androgynous partner because I do not see them as being firmly identified with femininity or the femme identity.

I think it is possible to separate all labels and use them as we see fit.

Ok I get that- please don’t take my follow up question as being a criticism – merely honest curiosity and it comes from the context of discussions that were had towards the beginning of this thread- which implied that the identity isn’t just about adding the word Stone to Butch to describe preferences in the bedroom, but in fact- was thought to be, by some (myself included), a way to describe a more holistic approach in the way that one related to the world at large.

For those of us who ascribe to the third gender belief, using “stone” with all of its assumed attributes to describe those who do not consider themselves part of the Butch- Femme community- raises some thought provoking questions.

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by Converse

This is interesting. So should I read this to mean that it is “Stone” rather than “Butch” that is the more relevant?

I wonder if a similar perception exists for Stone Butches i.e. that the “femme” is secondary to the “stone”, that the two words are separable- allowing Stone to be attached to any ID, gender etc while still retaining its attraction.

I'm attracted to butch women. Very butch women. I'm unlikely to pay much attention to a suitor who is not butch, but if a more androgynous lesbian were to pursue me, and she turned out to be both stone and a sadistic leather top, I might get interested.

My peculiar history of loss informs my choice in this. My late partner was not stone, and didn't ID as butch when she met me. Until then, she had been strenuously suppressing her naturally masculine nature. When she met me she was encouraged to express it for the first time. Ever. Eventually she became quite comfortable, and WOW! was she ever butch! Throughout that relationship I was as ignorant as I could be about my own stonefemme boundaries. I suffered from tremendous guilt after she died. Once I found out this very important thing about myself, I decided that it would be a very bad idea to date a non-stone butch because my guilt around her dissatisfaction is still profound. My late partner presented as kinda androgynous when she met me, but the other required elements were in place. Once she was allowed to be butch, it just flowed naturally.

My late gf, (yes, I lost my gf after I lost my partner), had always IDed as butch, and was nearly stone. That was AWESOME! Of course a stone butch leather top a lot like her would be a natural fit for me, but I wouldn't rule out an androgynous lesbian who is stone, because my experience tells me that it could end up working for me.

[Electrocell]

Androgynous -------I'm thinking neither femme or masculine (genderless ). Correct me if I'm wrong . How would you describe androgynous?

[justanolecowboy]

I have just found my way to this site and forum ---joined a few months ago - thought I would say hi ---I am enjoying this discussion thread ---as I was just having a discussion with a co-worker today about "stone" and "transgender" ---I am stone and although I "have" had top surgery -- and have also been on T in the past ---and I most certainly feel more "male" inside ---and look fairly male as well - I know exactly how I feel and what I am - but it is hard to "put" in words for others at times ---a friend calls me 80/20 - 80%male - 20% female -- thinks I am the best of "both" worlds ---but that doesn't always work out so well in the "real" world sometimes ---

As another poster commented - I ain't perfect - but I'm me ---and I like who I am ---I think there are as many ways to "identify" as there are people ---you just have to know who you are - be confident in that.

I am from a small community - where I am accepted (and blessed for that)- because I grew up here ---but 'understanding' or 'explaining' how I feel or identify is often times difficult ---or finding those wonderful femmes who love us stone butches ---where are you all hiding?

[ScandalAndy]

Originally Posted by Converse

Ok I get that- please don’t take my follow up question as being a criticism – merely honest curiosity and it comes from the context of discussions that were had towards the beginning of this thread- which implied that the identity isn’t just about adding the word Stone to Butch to describe preferences in the bedroom, but in fact- was thought to be, by some (myself included), a way to describe a more holistic approach in the way that one related to the world at large.

For those of us who ascribe to the third gender belief, using “stone” with all of its assumed attributes to describe those who do not consider themselves part of the Butch- Femme community- raises some thought provoking questions.

No offense taken, truly. I am currently subscribing to the belief that "stone" is a descriptor used to denote that there needs to be a dialogue between that individual and the people they interact with regarding their boundaries. From this thread I have learned that I cannot assume those boundaries to be solely sexual, if at all. I've also learned that the term doesn't solely apply to butches, and there are myriad interpretations of the word based on personal experiences. This is my working definition at the moment but I am always open to re-examining that as situations arise.

Originally Posted by Electrocell

Androgynous -------I'm thinking neither femme or masculine (genderless ). Correct me if I'm wrong . How would you describe androgynous?

Androgynous, to me, is someone who is not easily identifiable as male or female in behavior, looks, etc. either by choice or nature.

[*Anya*]

Originally Posted by NIGHTrambler

I have just found my way to this site and forum ---joined a few months ago - thought I would say hi ---I am enjoying this discussion thread ---as I was just having a discussion with a co-worker today about "stone" and "transgender" ---I am stone and although I "have" had top surgery -- and have also been on T in the past ---and I most certainly feel more "male" inside ---and look fairly male as well - I know exactly how I feel and what I am - but it is hard to "put" in words for others at times ---a friend calls me 80/20 - 80%male - 20% female -- thinks I am the best of "both" worlds ---but that doesn't always work out so well in the "real" world sometimes ---

As another poster commented - I ain't perfect - but I'm me ---and I like who I am ---I think there are as many ways to "identify" as there are people ---you just have to know who you are - be confident in that.

I am from a small community - where I am accepted (and blessed for that)- because I grew up here ---but 'understanding' or 'explaining' how I feel or identify is often times difficult ---or finding those wonderful femmes who love us stone butches ---where are you all hiding?

We are we? All around, yet as femmes we are not as easy to spot as a more masculine butch/stone butch/TG may be.

Back in 1992, I read the Joan Nestle book "The Persistent Desire: A Femme-Butch Reader & yesterday, my Amazon copy of Persistence: All ways Butch and Femme was delivered. If you have not yet read them, they are both wonderful.

I love the newest one and the entry by Jeanne Cordova really resonated with me. One sentence in particular: "Lonely butches, particularly from Los Angeles-the lipstick-lesbian capital of the US-said they couldn't find other butches." Her reference was related to butches not transitioning but for me as a femme; it has been difficult to find a thriving butch-femme community in LA. It still pretty much looks like lipstick-lesbian city to me.
When I say butch, I am including the continuum of all things butch-including trans.

The book also has great femme contributors with terrific writing. Hope it is OK to recommend it here-no financial gain for me!

We femmes are not hiding, it is just not always easy to spot us!

[justanolecowboy]

Originally Posted by Anya/Georgia

We are we? All around, yet as femmes we are not as easy to spot as a more masculine butch/stone butch/TG may be.

Back in 1992, I read the Joan Nestle book "The Persistent Desire: A Femme-Butch Reader & yesterday, my Amazon copy of Persistence: All ways Butch and Femme was delivered. If you have not yet read them, they are both wonderful.

I love the newest one and the entry by Jeanne Cordova really resonated with me. One sentence in particular: "Lonely butches, particularly from Los Angeles-the lipstick-lesbian capital of the US-said they couldn't find other butches." Her reference was related to butches not transitioning but for me as a femme; it has been difficult to find a thriving butch-femme community in LA. It still pretty much looks like lipstick-lesbian city to me.
When I say butch, I am including the continuum of all things butch-including trans.

The book also has great femme contributors with terrific writing. Hope it is OK to recommend it here-no financial gain for me!

We femmes are not hiding, it is just not always easy to spot us!

Have read the one book - but not the other - but I'm a book-aholic so shall check it out!

[QueenofSmirks]

Originally Posted by Anya/Georgia

... Her reference was related to butches not transitioning but for me as a femme; it has been difficult to find a thriving butch-femme community in LA. It still pretty much looks like lipstick-lesbian city to me.
...

Frankly, I find that butches are difficult to find in all cities/states where I've lived, including NYC and now my current residence, Phoenix. They are few and far between, but then I suppose if I look at it mathmatically, the butch/femme community is difficult to find - "gays and lesbians" make up roughly 10% of the U.S. population - and we are a very, VERY small slice of that... so, yeah.... I guess 1% or less WOULD be difficult to find

[Merlin]

^ uk is even more sparse

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Electrocell

Androgynous -------I'm thinking neither femme or masculine (genderless ). Correct me if I'm wrong . How would you describe androgynous?

For me, it's the opposite. I see androgynous as having traits from both genders. A blend versus a lacking of one or the other (or both).

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Electrocell

I recently was with this femme who was just use to what I call lesbian sex. 69 etc. She was also use to being the aggressor in the relationship(sometimes that's good ) Well I intoduced her to my butch cock and she enjoyed the hell out of it. Don't get me wrong I use my hands and my mouth still ( have to have foreplay ya know.) I also know if you don't use your cock right it can be a turn off for some femmes. So far I haven't had any complaints lol. Hope I'm allowed to say this lol.

Hey Electrocell I may have a bone to pick, though a small one (and good to see you-this is Metropolis btw

Anyway just the use of the term "lesbian sex" and refering it to 69... I don't officially ID as lesbian, but I am one and I am also Stone. So my thing here is promoting (not that you were trying to) a term like "lesbian sex" as being a concrete thing as 69 is problematic for me... like in a stereotyping thingy.

There are Stone Butch Lesbians, Stone Femme Lesbians, Stone Andro Lesbians, Stone Tomboy Lesbians... well you get it. In any case I was compelled to clear that up =)

[Electrocell]

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[/PHP]Hey Metropolis,

How ya doing? That was just my opinion,I believe each to their own,whatever you want to do in your bedroom or wherever is your business.Wasn't trying to stereotype, heteros do 69 also.Maybe I just should of said she wasn't use to butch cock to be politically correct.

Originally Posted by Jett

Hey Electrocell I may have a bone to pick, though a small one (and good to see you-this is Metropolis btw

Anyway just the use of the term "lesbian sex" and refering it to 69... I don't officially ID as lesbian, but I am one and I am also Stone. So my thing here is promoting (not that you were trying to) a term like "lesbian sex" as being a concrete thing as 69 is problematic for me... like in a stereotyping thingy.

There are Stone Butch Lesbians, Stone Femme Lesbians, Stone Andro Lesbians, Stone Tomboy Lesbians... well you get it. In any case I was compelled to clear that up =)

[Electrocell]

Hey Metropolis,

How ya doing? That was just my opinion,I believe each to their own,whatever you want to do in your bedroom or wherever is your business.Wasn't trying to stereotype, heteros do 69 also.Maybe I just should of said she wasn't use to butch cock to be politically correct.

Originally Posted by Jett

Hey Electrocell I may have a bone to pick, though a small one (and good to see you-this is Metropolis btw

Anyway just the use of the term "lesbian sex" and refering it to 69... I don't officially ID as lesbian, but I am one and I am also Stone. So my thing here is promoting (not that you were trying to) a term like "lesbian sex" as being a concrete thing as 69 is problematic for me... like in a stereotyping thingy.

There are Stone Butch Lesbians, Stone Femme Lesbians, Stone Andro Lesbians, Stone Tomboy Lesbians... well you get it. In any case I was compelled to clear that up =)

[Midnight]

Another stone butch here. Masculine clothing, shaved head but female ID'ed. Definitely have butch c*ck though!

[cuddlyfemme]

Just popping in to say Good Morning to all you handsome Stone Butches. Have a wonderful day!

[Electrocell]

Originally Posted by cuddlyfemme

Just popping in to say Good Morning to all you handsome Stone Butches. Have a wonderful day!

Good morning to the lovely femmes too that make our butch world rock.

[cuddlyfemme]

Originally Posted by Electrocell

Good morning to the lovely femmes too that make our butch world rock.

And thanks to all the butches that make our femme world rock!

[LaneyDoll]

Originally Posted by Electrocell

Androgynous -------I'm thinking neither femme or masculine (genderless ). Correct me if I'm wrong . How would you describe androgynous?

The combination/presence of both male & female characteristics & qualities. Personally, I find it (and genderfluidity/queerness) to be a huge turn on.

[cuddlyfemme]

Just popping in to say Good Morning to all the handsome Stone Butches. Its one day closer to the weekend!!!! I hope everyone has a wonderful day!

[Midnight]

Alas I will be working Sat. But I hope all the lovely femmes out there have a great weekend, I know I'll make up for missing Saturday on Sunday!