Open Letter: Dear Femme

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Arwen

Labels.

I am one of those who actually likes labels. I like to stick them on myself and then watch other people's brains turn to mush when they try to figure out how all of those labels can be one person.

When I am in a partnership, I like "taking care" of my other half. It feeds my soul. I do this on a fairly instinctive basis. It is not because I think it is the "girl" role. I do this for my friends as well. It is the "Arwen" role.

I believe that when we make a case for femme as anything we define it as, we must make sure that we are not limiting that "anything" to anything we are comfortable with.

I like to cook. When I shared a house with Goofy, I enjoyed feeding him. (please note he cooked as well). I do not know if he got the same enjoyment out of cooking for me as I did for him. (Also, for those that do not know, Goof and I are just friends. )

But cooking, for me, is an expression of who I am. Not my femme self. My Arwen self. I do it because it is a way to put some of my creativity out there in a tangible way.

So, if I enjoy cooking, does that make me an accomplice to the male-centric domination of our culture?

I don't think so.

I think if I got upset that my partner cooked, THEN I would be contributing.

I do know that I've made jokes about a butch's place is at the BBQ. I personally do not enjoy BBQing. I like eating it and fixing it...but the actual standing by the BBQ? Not so much.

Yeah, I do see that as a "boy" thing. And that is my own lightbulb on how I foster this male-centric attitude.

Now, mind you, this does NOT mean I am going to hit the BBQ. I will however change my language around it being the butch's job. How about in my world, it is anyone's job but mine.

How about a thread challenge? We are all doing so fabulously at conversing here.

Who else can come up with a personal, concrete example of what you (not generic, but personal) do to foster even in a small way, the idea that femme is somehow defined/refined by butch?

What labels do you love? hate? What do you somehow see as your role that possibly is not?

Yes, I know I'm rambling. I do that.

I have not spent hardly any time as an unattached femme. I met someone and then immediately was defined by that person and his ID. The fact that my partner is trans has brought many suprising interactions my way both in the queer world and the straight world. I wish I could say that they were good surprises. So sometimes I feel like I have no clue who I am as a femme and that all the word means is who I am partnered with. That is why I love this thread!!!!!

I love all labels. I am a labely kind of gal. The supportive role and label we have talked about is one I don't like sometimes. As a woman I am expected to be supportive of everyone, all the time. That gets old and it is my mistake and my responsibility to support myself first always. I don't do that and that is a problem. It is the age old lament I think. When is there time for me?

[apretty]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I have not spent hardly any time as an unattached femme. I met someone and then immediately was defined by that person and his ID.

who were you before you met your sig/other? how/why did that change?

[Julie]

Originally Posted by June

Okay, I am all caught up now. For now.
Because I am often not "A good girl", therefore, I must be... masculine? Because if Femme = Feminine, doesn't Butch = masculine? At least to some degree? For a lot of us?

And each of us has to reconcile it within ourselves, and if we are brave we talk about it, lay it on the table, so to speak and hope that others will try to understand outside of their own belief system.

Dear June,

Having a voice doesn't make you masculine. It makes you human.

Love,
Poodle

Dear Poodle... Thank you for reminding June of her humanness and in doing so, reminding me.

I am a woman of peace... Conflict breaks me and the good little girl in me comes out, because sometimes my voice is lost. I flinch at a silencing hand and I dare to revolt against it.

When I find my ground and the big voiced Femme in me appears, I stand up, not to be heard, but to stand tall within myself.

I have been silenced, though only for a moment in time, as I do remember who I am, and shame on the energy who has attempted to silence me, because when I do wake up and hear the voice of the speaker, I walk, and I will walk slowly with great belief in myself. Sometimes without even uttering a goodbye.

What a brilliant topic.

Julie

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by apretty

who were you before you met your sig/other? how/why did that change?

Oh my! Well I was a straight married mama. I have always been queer and attracted to butches but could not figure out why I did not fit in the lesbian world. Femme was not a concept or word I was familiar with. Finding out that there was a label for how I felt was a revelation to me. I also have OCD and only was diagnosed and treated in the past two years. I am kind of new in the world in general right now. So I left my husband who was and still is abusive and came out to all my friends and family. It's been Mr Toad's wild ride here!!! It's been a year since I left and just recently I have taken a breath and assessed all the changes in my life. Some are good and some are bad. Some are inevitable and I can't control them and others are choices I can reexamine. The main thing I know is that leaving and coming out was the right decision and has made me happier and more free than I had thought possible.

[blush]

Originally Posted by Diva

It is up to me to be strong.
It is up to me not to be objectified.
It is up to me not to be a doormat.
It is up to me not to be invisible.
It is up to me not to whine about it.

I am a strong submissivewomanmomteacherdivathangetc. If I am in a relationship, I have no problem saying that I will be supportive of my partner, because I will have had the good sense to have found Someone who will also be supportive of me. (And blush, I know You have that! <smile>

[/COLOR]

[/COLOR]

Yeah, my baby and I buck each other up. But for me, I'm speaking to that public and cultural perception that femmes have. The idea that the highest compliment we can pay a femme is to say she is supportive. Yet the highest compliment we can pay our counterparts is to say they are "strong."

I'm speaking in generalities, which is always sometimes true, yanno.

I do totally agree that the answer lies within. Our own truths lie within. But its damn lonely and hard to find those truths. I know that, particularly this last year, I've missed the femme voices in the forums.

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by June

the implication of being nefariously destructive because you dare to question the implied heirarchy of presumed (or assumed) power. And all this is designed to do, is to force us to sit down, shut up and be good girls. -- Fuck that.

When we allow anyone to silence us in order to conform, we are acting out of fear that we will be excluded somehow, or punished, or ostracized or accused of "isms" in order to deflect from what is really going on. I have seen so many people lose themselves in this systematic, deliberate process.

Oh hell yeah, June. I am still struggling with this issue of being silenced in ordered to conform. I've done this for years and years and years. Only lately have I found the strength to draw a line in the sand and truly stick to my personal safety boundaries.

And it is more than hard. It's like concrete with those little rocks thrown in for texture. It hurts to rub up against. I don't like it but I have to maintain it for my own good.

It causes uncomfortable silences. It makes for hard conversation. It requires blunt, raw self-honesty that does not flinch when it looks in your mirror.

It is, one might want to say, not feminine.

Originally Posted by June

Just because you can't find your own voice, doesn't
mean you get to silence mine.

QUOTABLE ALERT. I want to cross-stitch this and hang it in my house. Thank you.

Originally Posted by June

Femme Heirarchy/Butch Heirarchy/Masculine Heirarchy -- All it is doing is dividing us further and it sickens me. No one should have to fight for space *here* the way we all have to *there* (outside). Somehow, there has to be a way for us to be able to admit our internalized feelings (even the ugly ones) in ways that allow us to be introspective without making anyone feel less than.

This space here seems to be allowing us to do that at least in this thread. I don't go into some of the other threads so I may be missing things.

Originally Posted by June

And each of us has to reconcile it within ourselves, and if we are brave we talk about it, lay it on the table, so to speak and hope that others will try to understand outside of their own belief system.

Dear June,

Having a voice doesn't make you masculine. It makes you human.

Love,
Poodle

This was honestly one of the best posts of this thread for me personally. I have fought with myself over this one. The thing I get hit with when I voice an unpopular opinion or speak stridently or "meanly" is that I am being "toppy".

Same thing. Apparently femme also equals submissive (can someone tell Snow that because I'm just not that brave.) So it becomes a silencer to tell someone they are being "toppy" when all they are doing is expressing an opinion.

Having a voice doesn't make you dominant . It makes you human.

Thanks, poodle. Your next haircut (topiary included) is on me.

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I love all labels. I am a labely kind of gal. The supportive role and label we have talked about is one I don't like sometimes. As a woman I am expected to be supportive of everyone, all the time. That gets old and it is my mistake and my responsibility to support myself first always. I don't do that and that is a problem. It is the age old lament I think. When is there time for me?

This is going to sound harsh.

There is time for you when you make time for you. Expecting others to fulfill your needs is a waste of precious time. Do for yourself or don't get it at all.

I do not mean that your partner can not complement you as well as compliment you. Far from it.

But how tiresome would it be to feel that you have to meet your partner's every need.

So I challenge you to make time for yourself this week and stick to it.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Arwen

Oh hell yeah, June. I am still struggling with this issue of being silenced in ordered to conform. I've done this for years and years and years. Only lately have I found the strength to draw a line in the sand and truly stick to my personal safety boundaries.

And it is more than hard. It's like concrete with those little rocks thrown in for texture. It hurts to rub up against. I don't like it but I have to maintain it for my own good.

It causes uncomfortable silences. It makes for hard conversation. It requires blunt, raw self-honesty that does not flinch when it looks in your mirror.

It is, one might want to say, not feminine.



QUOTABLE ALERT. I want to cross-stitch this and hang it in my house. Thank you.



This space here seems to be allowing us to do that at least in this thread. I don't go into some of the other threads so I may be missing things.



This was honestly one of the best posts of this thread for me personally. I have fought with myself over this one. The thing I get hit with when I voice an unpopular opinion or speak stridently or "meanly" is that I am being "toppy".

Same thing. Apparently femme also equals submissive (can someone tell Snow that because I'm just not that brave.) So it becomes a silencer to tell someone they are being "toppy" when all they are doing is expressing an opinion.

Having a voice doesn't make you dominant . It makes you human.

Thanks, poodle. Your next haircut (topiary included) is on me.



This is going to sound harsh.

There is time for you when you make time for you. Expecting others to fulfill your needs is a waste of precious time. Do for yourself or don't get it at all.

I do not mean that your partner can not complement you as well as compliment you. Far from it.

But how tiresome would it be to feel that you have to meet your partner's every need.

So I challenge you to make time for yourself this week and stick to it.

Harsh away!!! I didn't take it as harsh at all. I just spent the evening with my two sisters, a friend we have known for 20 years and my niece. It is way past my bed time!! I had a delightful evening.

[Diva]

Originally Posted by blush

Yeah, my baby and I buck each other up. But for me, I'm speaking to that public and cultural perception that femmes have. The idea that the highest compliment we can pay a femme is to say she is supportive. Yet the highest compliment we can pay our counterparts is to say they are "strong."

I'm speaking in generalities, which is always sometimes true, yanno.

I do totally agree that the answer lies within. Our own truths lie within. But its damn lonely and hard to find those truths. I know that, particularly this last year, I've missed the femme voices in the forums.

I appreciated this post....so much.

And I guess I'm oblivious and/or naive....as I didn't realize that there WAS a 'public & cultural perception' with other femmes.....now....when I lived as a wife in the church of Christ? Oh HELL yeah.....it was that "good little woman" syndrome....can You even imagine me in that role? I was very good. But I nearly lost my sanity because I nearly lost myself.

And now You know.

Indeed. To find our own truths can sometimes be lonely. But once they're found, they're so liberating.

I love this thread!

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Arwen

Labels.

I am one of those who actually likes labels. I like to stick them on myself and then watch other people's brains turn to mush when they try to figure out how all of those labels can be one person.

When I am in a partnership, I like "taking care" of my other half. It feeds my soul. I do this on a fairly instinctive basis. It is not because I think it is the "girl" role. I do this for my friends as well. It is the "Arwen" role.

I believe that when we make a case for femme as anything we define it as, we must make sure that we are not limiting that "anything" to anything we are comfortable with.

I like to cook. When I shared a house with Goofy, I enjoyed feeding him. (please note he cooked as well). I do not know if he got the same enjoyment out of cooking for me as I did for him. (Also, for those that do not know, Goof and I are just friends. )

But cooking, for me, is an expression of who I am. Not my femme self. My Arwen self. I do it because it is a way to put some of my creativity out there in a tangible way.

So, if I enjoy cooking, does that make me an accomplice to the male-centric domination of our culture?

I don't think so.

I think if I got upset that my partner cooked, THEN I would be contributing.

I do know that I've made jokes about a butch's place is at the BBQ. I personally do not enjoy BBQing. I like eating it and fixing it...but the actual standing by the BBQ? Not so much.

Yeah, I do see that as a "boy" thing. And that is my own lightbulb on how I foster this male-centric attitude.

Now, mind you, this does NOT mean I am going to hit the BBQ. I will however change my language around it being the butch's job. How about in my world, it is anyone's job but mine.

How about a thread challenge? We are all doing so fabulously at conversing here.

Who else can come up with a personal, concrete example of what you (not generic, but personal) do to foster even in a small way, the idea that femme is somehow defined/refined by butch?

What labels do you love? hate? What do you somehow see as your role that possibly is not?

Yes, I know I'm rambling. I do that.

I'm not going to contribute anything new at this time, but I do so love this post. I relate to it (and you!) on many levels.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by June

This thread is about Femmes, but if we are also talking about how we buy into the reality of Male-centric behavior, I want to touch on how I am witnessing the lack of respect between SOME Butches and Transmen. The pissing contest mentality, the scrambling for power, the stepping on and over each other in what appears to me to be an attempt to create or perpetuate a heirarchy where none (in my opinion) needs to exist. Femme Heirarchy/Butch Heirarchy/Masculine Heirarchy -- All it is doing is dividing us further and it sickens me. No one should have to fight for space *here* the way we all have to *there* (outside). Somehow, there has to be a way for us to be able to admit our internalized feelings (even the ugly ones) in ways that allow us to be introspective without making anyone feel less than.

[/B]

I loved this, Junebug.

You are so mighty, mighty.

[blush]

Originally Posted by Lynn

.

As blush said, I don't want to be identified by who I choose to fuck. It's one aspect of me. I agree that labels are useful. Labels and language are meaningful and powerful.That is why I have yet to find myself comfortable with being identified as a femme. I've said elsewhere, and probably here...to me, and for me, femme is an attribute, not an identity.

How do I contribute to the idea that femme is defined or refined by butch? I don't know. I don't equate the masculinity of a butch with male-centrict?(that means "patriarchal"--right). I have NO expectatation of any trappings (I think they're trappings) of stereotypical male-female roles and duties in my relationship, but I don't have any problem where they would appear to be so, for me or for anyone else. I think we've come to the point where we have the right to be, without apology.
YES! YES! YES!
I've been working on this for far too long...might I be self-censoring? Perhaps. So, it's time to post.

Femme certainly means different things to different people. For some femmes, it is their gender, for others, it is their sexuality, and for others, it is a descriptor.

For me, masculinity simply describes the energy. Our counterparts are more masculine than femmes.

My understanding of male-centric is a "centering" or anchoring of our community(butch-femme) around masculinity. It differs, in my mind, from patriarchy because we do not depend upon a "father-figure."

Originally Posted by June

Because I am often not "A good girl", therefore, I must be... masculine? Because if Femme = Feminine, doesn't Butch = masculine? At least to some degree? For a lot of us?

And each of us has to reconcile it within ourselves, and if we are brave we talk about it, lay it on the table, so to speak and hope that others will try to understand outside of their own belief system.

Yeah...It's that whole "you throw ALMOST as good as a boy."

Originally Posted by Diva

I appreciated this post....so much.

And I guess I'm oblivious and/or naive....as I didn't realize that there WAS a 'public & cultural perception' with other femmes.....now....when I lived as a wife in the church of Christ? Oh HELL yeah.....it was that "good little woman" syndrome....can You even imagine me in that role? I was very good. But I nearly lost my sanity because I nearly lost myself.

And now You know.

Indeed. To find our own truths can sometimes be lonely. But once they're found, they're so liberating.

I love this thread!

Aren't there always private and public perceptions of just about anything? The public/private perception of a teacher? A doctor? A mother? A wife?

Laughing at you as a COC wife...JesusChristonacracker...

[Diva]

Originally Posted by blush

Laughing at you as a COC wife...JesusChristonacracker...

LOL! That pretty much sums it up, for sure!

[christie]

I have been reading and rereading this thread, trying to wrap my head around some of the points of view and perspectives. Some things really hit home… others not so much, but I recognize that they are valid points of view.

What I am hearing is a majority consensus that we femmes are seen as supporting cast members rather than the headliners.

That we are seen as “less than” our masculine counterparts.

That we are seen as “less than” in our queer community.

That we have been silenced because our presenting energy isn’t masculine.

That we are the sum of our roles rather than an entity in our own right.

I also think that quite a bit of what is being spoken here is very generalized and vague. Perhaps it’s just that I am not in the majority in my experiences of navigating the world as a femme. Maybe it’s that like for some, femme is just another facet of me. If I start listing all that is Christie, femme, while important, is just an ingredient in the recipe of me.

While I can certainly understand all of these things, for the most part, they just don’t apply to me; or at least they don’t apply to the majority of my lived years. Is it that I feel like they don’t apply in my “real life” and that I see it happening more in online communities? Have we considered that the surge in BDSMers in the BF world might have something to do with the perceptions of being silenced, of being seen as less than and in a supportive role? It seems that the majority of kinksters in the Top realm of power exchange relationships are predominantly masculine and that most bottoms are feminine. That in M/s dynamics, the “s” is akin to chattel, without a voice or expected to have/use a brain, that in D/s, a submissive is consenting to the Dominant’s will.

I would hope that no one interprets my observation above about BDSM as anything but more in that I think as the subcultures of the queer world grow and expand, so does the coloring of our perceptions. I think that as a subculture within a subculture (BDSM within BF) becomes more highly visible and is the “chatter (latest, greatest new thing)” that “voice” or that image can be seen as the collective view.

In my early adulthood, yes, I tried to live the life my parents mapped out for me. It was very apparent to me that I could never be “that” woman. In the end, I had to give myself permission to live my own life. I think that all young adults, no matter gender or ID, have to move through this process.

Even in living that lie, I was still who I am today. Perhaps not as enhanced and evolved, but the core of who I am has always been there. Different qualities taking on more presence, or less presence, as I grew, matured and moved through the world.

There was a point made by evolveme about who we are outside our roles. For me, I think that even in shedding the labels, the attributes of that role are still present. For example, if I had not had the role of “mother”, I would still be a nurturer. I don’t think I would have quite the same depth of nurturing ability. For me, being a mother makes me be “better.” My perception of what being a mother means has meant those qualities, which I already possessed, were brought to the surface and utilized and challenged.

I don’t use males or masculinity as the scale by which I am measured, unless, of course, it’s to be superior. I never “threw a ball like a girl”; I always “threw a ball better than anyone else.”

I do think that my motherinlaw’s view of women has caused me to be more in “competition” with what she considers male superiority. When we were taking bids for floor refinishing, she said something about my crackhead, IQ of a piece of cardboard brotherinlaw and how she wanted to rent the equipment for him to refinish his own floors. I looked at Jess and said, “Oh fuck that. If he can do it, so can we.” Moral of the story, four weeks of backbreaking labor and love and we have amazing floors… all done at the hands of two women.

A man who inherited the business from his father employs me. Both are very staunch, conservative republicans with stay home wives and are both the walking, breathing epitome of male privilege. They had never had a woman in power at their company, in its entire 56 year history until I joined them 1.5 years ago. I could tell at the beginning that I would have to stand toe to toe with the elder so as to not be pigeonholed into what I felt his ideas of my role would be. The son, who is my age, has said that I have changed his father’s perceptions of women. Just last week, I was promoted and will be taking over the helm of the business in January. I am not so naïve as to think that I won’t have a struggle ahead of me just because I wasn’t born with a penis.

I am a strong, independent, intelligent, feminine, imperfectly perfect, simply complex, female entity. My relationship does not define me. My partnering with a beautifully exquisite masculine female does not define me. Demanding that my voice be heard does not make me less feminine. It does not make me more masculine. Running the world and being Queen of all I see doesn’t make me less feminine or more masculine. It just makes me intelligently strong. It’s just me.

For me, it’s not about letting the world chose my role within it… It’s about me choosing how I am viewed in the world.

Christie

[SuperFemme]

Actually I know of many Femme Tops/Daddy's. I also don't believe that the 's' in M/S is in any way, shape or form chattel. It is all about a power exchange. Nothing (and I mean nothing) goes un-negotiated in any leather relationship.

We are claiming our sexuality, releasing the shame. That makes people nervous.
I find it MOST interesting that women find it uncomfortable to see a Femme as a Dominant. Let's not even bring up a Femme with a cock. Oh good lord! That gets people twitterpated in a not good way.

While our experiences are all individual, we have a safe space here to speak. I think that is the only group think going on here. Let your voices be heard. Remember, Femmes are like snowflakes (actually, people are) there are no two exactly alike. Sociology, upbringing, culture, geographical locations and race are all factors that can greatly affect how we move through the world.

[christie]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Actually I know of many Femme Tops/Daddy's. I also don't believe that the 's' in M/S is in any way, shape or form chattel. It is all about a power exchange. Nothing (and I mean nothing) goes un-negotiated in any leather relationship.

We are claiming our sexuality, releasing the shame. That makes people nervous.
I find it MOST interesting that women find it uncomfortable to see a Femme as a Dominant. Let's not even bring up a Femme with a cock. Oh good lord! That gets people twitterpated in a not good way.

While our experiences are all individual, we have a safe space here to speak. I think that is the only group think going on here. Let your voices be heard. Remember, Femmes are like snowflakes (actually, people are) there are no two exactly alike. Sociology, upbringing, culture, geographical locations and race are all factors that can greatly affect how we move through the world.

I, too, know my share of Femme Tops/Daddys. Gee, I even resembled that at one point in my journey; however removed it is from my life today.

Again, my experiences with M/s couples who are 24/7, part of the power exchange is that the "s" willingly consents to giving up autonomy.

I merely brought this up as an example of how we (the collective femme population) might have gotten to this point. This place where we are examining who and what we are and where we choose to carve out our niche in our worlds.

I appreciate the different experiences and the opportunity to see the world through others' eyes.

[Apocalipstic]

The way BSDM comes in to play for me is that if I am around anyone from the B/F community and someone orders their partner to do something for them (example from Arwen) it is difficult to know when it's a BDSM thing or a really bad manners sexist thing.

Also, in my area, it is hella shocking for a Femme to be a Top or have a dick....another thread....

On to another subject....

OK, so something strange happened last week. A friend told me that his G/F thinks Cynthia (my Butch G/F) is soooo much more intelligent, and it's so great to be able to talk just to her about intelligent things.....blah blah. Another friend said that people automatically assume Cynthia is more intelligent because she is more masculine and men are automatically supposed to be smarter. WTFFFFFFFFFFF??????

Then, chatting with another friend this weekend, I mentioned how differently I dress when I do or do not have a G/F. How when I am single I would never go to the bar in a dress and heels, because I need to look more in control. WTFFFFFFFFFFFF?

Do I maybe use Cynthia's masculinity as a shield?
Do I dumb it down around people when we are together and let her be the smart one?
Do I just look dumb?
What does this mean?



Is this reaction and my desire to tell everyone who has the biggest dick in our house, my inner 16 year old boy having a tantrum?

My Femme is intelligent and wears a big blue opalescent dick.

[SuperFemme]

I've often wondered about the whole perception of the BDSM thing.

Women (specifically Femmes) are not thought of as powerful. Men come with built in power. Women/Femmes have to fight for it and they tend to horde it. So it feels semi reactionary when people get aghast at a Femme giving her power away willingly. It feels like betrayal to some people. But it's NOT! We have so much power. The decision to give or take power is powerful in and of itself.

There is also the duality of a Femme being dominant. It is frowned upon in a 'doesn't she know her place' kind of way. Remember, Femme is a supporting role. Just not TOO supportive in the imagined hierarchy.

Using the word chattel makes me uncomfortable. It feels like it sets up an unfair perception of such relationships. One cannot willingly consent to something and then be deemed to have no voice.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I can't think and I have been sitting here trying to think of any femmes, or women, or girls in a D/s or M/s dynamic who I do not view as strong.. I really can't even imagine it truth be told

[Apocalipstic]

I think (and I could be wrong) that Christie was saying that a strong woman can choose to be "chattel" in a BDSM setting.

I also can see the problem with the word "chattel" and (for me), the word "slave". There is so much negative history intertwined with those words that I wince every time I see or hear them. However, some of the strongest women I know use and embrace those words in a BDSM setting.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I think (and I could be wrong) that Christie was saying that a strong woman can choose to be "chattel" in a BDSM setting.

I also can see the problem with the word "chattel" and (for me), the word "slave". There is so much negative history intertwined with those words that I wince every time I see or hear them. However, some of the strongest women I know use and embrace those words in a BDSM setting.

And as I sit here..

I can't think of one slave I know

who is not strong

not one..