Male ID butch vs. FTM??

[DomnNC]

Awesome post Thinker. I totally get what you're saying, I read somewhere the other night and dang I wish I could put my finger on it right now, but it said that over 50% of the transmen in the US live far under the poverty level cuz as you said they lost their jobs, homes, family, etcetcetc when they transition. So now they are also left without healthcare as well if the state won't cover them. It was also said that the transmen group are one of the highest discriminated against groups in the US right now. Now that's privilege.

I can pass quite easily when I choose to do so. I had a very stressful high up job in a big manufacturing facility with 6 remote branches. I was the MIS Director for the whole shabang. I had to cost justify every little penny I wanted to spend. I was questioned endlessly as to why I wanted to spend the money. They even called other companies to come in and verify what I said. When I had my last back surgery they replaced me within a week with a "real" man with a cock dangling between his legs that said he had been with IBM for 20+ years and oh my he could do it all. He wound up costing that company well over $200,000 for shit they didn't need or to replace stuff he tore up and was hiding it, didn't have to justify one thing to them, he could just do it. Short ending, before my medical leave was up they called wanting me to come back full time, that I could run the department as I saw fit, you know, male privilege, I told em to go screw themselves in not so nice terms. So see, we don't get privilege like some people think we do, it's not all encompassing male privilege. At least my experience has been quite the opposite. I'm not denying it's out there somewhere, it's just not been my experience all that much.

lol, it took em 3 years to figure out the man lied about every ability he had and to fire him.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Martina

i was responding to Ender's post, to this in part. It seems to say there is no point in talking about male privilege as it applies to transmen. i don't agree.

Martina, this is not what I was saying.

Furthermore, what is the point of discussing one individual's privilege within a situation, if the awareness of each person's privilege is equally important when it comes down to burning the gender rulebook (this "gender rulebook" is what causes privilege/lack thereof for transfolks, for women, for the LGBT community, so to me we should spend less time pointing fingers, and more time dismantling the root of that problem. To me, when people come into trans/male id threads and simply post at transpeople saying "well don't deny the privilege you have!" to complete strangers of whom they probably know very little, it feels dismissive of the individual's situation and experiences.)? The only purpose I can see is to guilt, alienate and shame one of the two parties; to place the importance of one over the other, and that is what I feel has happened at certain points of this thread when male privilege and transmen have been brought up.

In fact, I think I even highlighted in my responses to you a couple of times that I was not denying the fact that that privilege existed, but that it was far more complex when it came to transmen. We spoke a bit about transmen who pass and so on, but the problem is is it's hard to talk about a generic or stereotypical transman.

I think it is significant that a disproportionate amount of trans people are discriminated against in housing and employment situations in comparison to the general population (in Canada, probably one of the only other groups that deals with this problem to a similar degree (by this I mean statistically, I'm not denying others don't feel this, too) are Aboriginal Canadians, though they are protected by law...unfortunately many don't care), that more transfolks are the victims of violent assault than the general population, that so many still get swallowed up by drugs and prostitution (sometimes I feel like that aspect is unspoken when it comes to transguys) because of these challenges made harder by the fact that they have only artificial legal protection. I think that is important when we discuss male privilege within the trans community.

The other thing is, a lot of transguys on the internet are perhaps no longer in these situations, are not yet in these situations, with some who will never be in these situations, though I'm sure there still are quite a few who are. They at least have the current luxury of computer and internet access, which likely means they are not living below the povert line. There are a lot of transguys out there who do and so they have no voice in these kinds of conversations, may not even have a voice in the real world depending on their situation. They should be taken into consideration. They are significant, and their male privilege is complicated.

Why is it so insignificant to you? Why is it so offensive for me to say that coming up with a hypothetical trans person in an office job is problematic when talking about transguys' male privilege as a generalisation? Denying the circumstances of the trans population just seems really dismissive to me.

I agree that we should be listening to what anyone has to say about male privilege and how it is harmful to women. But it often feels that people rarely stop to actively listen to transmen or male ids without wagging their finger and saying "well, you have male privilege!" or some comment about their transition, who they are, how they should act, how they have this responsibility or that one, where they should exist, where they shouldn't. It pretty much shuts down anything a transguy has to say that doesn't agree with one aspect or another, and if he stands up for himself he must be exercising his male privilege.

Also, why is it problematic when I suggest that speaking about privilege should be a two-way conversation that weighs both sides and not only male privilege transmen carry to varying degrees (in some ways I do agree with what Joe said about it being superficial), but also the privilege that stands against them?

The reason why I suggest this is because in many threads that are either about transguys/male ids or simply in which they participate (like Domn and Jesse were saying), people use male privilege as a way of silencing transmen or talking down to them. Yet in many situations the privilege is a two-way street, because the same people who frequently bring up male privilege in trans threads also have their own privilege and it seems like they don't think that's as important...why is it so absurd and offensive that we focus on ridding ourselves of both? Both are harmful. Both are silencing. Why can't we talk about both?

Btw, everything I've said here about transguys (and all transfolks) and the challenges they face is also applicable to other identities, other minority groups, definitely applicable to many women that is for sure. In many respects we share these problems, which is, again, why I think we should explore the greater issue that causes both privileges and disadvantages on all sides. That, to me, seems more productive than shouting down a given transguy who walks into a trans/male id thread talking about his experience.

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

and if he stands up for himself he must be exercising his male privilege.

*That* is what I've been trying to put my finger on! Something in this has felt very "catch-22"-ish to me, and I couldn't get down to it.

Well said, Ender.

[Jaques]

Originally Posted by Jaques

I have witnessed women disempowering men and reducing them to tears....................its quite common

Thank you blade..................it happens...........GJ

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by Jaques

Thank you blade..................it happens...........GJ

Uhh, yeah. So I suppose whenever we talk about violence against women we also need to remind everyone that sometimes women assault men? And there have been at least three cases of women raping men!

Forgive my sarcasm, but am I the only person who can't help taking this bait?

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

Uhh, yeah. So I suppose whenever we talk about violence against women we also need to remind everyone that sometimes women assault men? And there have been at least three cases of women raping men!

Forgive my sarcasm, but am I the only person who can't help taking this bait?

I think you might be.

And I mean no disrespect in saying that. I also mean no disrespect to Jacques when I say that I, personally, couldn't find it in myself to dignify it with a response.

It's apples and oranges.

I also don't mean to minimize the reality of abuse perpetrated on men by women, but it's not even conscionable that one would could offer that up as some sort of excuse or retort to the real and persistent issue of men disrespecting, abusing, and/or devaluing women.

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by Thinker

I think you might be.

And I mean no disrespect in saying that. I also mean no disrespect to Jacques when I say that I, personally, couldn't find it in myself to dignify it with a response.

It's apples and oranges.

I also don't mean to minimize the reality of abuse perpetrated on men by women, but it's not even conscionable that one would could offer that up as some sort of excuse or retort to the real and persistent issue of men disrespecting, abusing, and/or devaluing women.

You're right. I should have known better than to respond when I saw that the poster felt compelled to repost the remark after nobody responded the first time. I won't fall for it again.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

Uhh, yeah. So I suppose whenever we talk about violence against women we also need to remind everyone that sometimes women assault men? And there have been at least three cases of women raping men!

Forgive my sarcasm, but am I the only person who can't help taking this bait?

I've found this users' posts, frankly, ridiculous and largely lacking in content and relevance. I thought by intent, and so not worth comment.

I guess that means I didn't take the bait.

[Corkey]

I'm with Bent and Thinker, it wasn't a question of it being right, it was in My view point a statement minus facts.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Thinker

I think you might be.

And I mean no disrespect in saying that. I also mean no disrespect to Jacques when I say that I, personally, couldn't find it in myself to dignify it with a response.

It's apples and oranges.

I also don't mean to minimize the reality of abuse perpetrated on men by women, but it's not even conscionable that one would could offer that up as some sort of excuse or retort to the real and persistent issue of men disrespecting, abusing, and/or devaluing women.

^This pretty much sums up my thoughts on the post/repost as well. To me those kinds of comments also throw a stick in the spokes when it comes to communicating concerns to each other. Kind of like going backward rather than forward.

[Martina]

Isn't male privilege useful FOR speaking up when sexist remarks are made? i know this is a trans thread. i am not sure i can do any good by speaking here. i have been asked questions and then criticized for coming in here at all. My responses have been characterized as finger wagging and as shouting down. i can't really productively engage with that.

Thinker and Ender, it's not about how i feel about the lives of transmen. Of course, i must take responsibility for cis-privilege. And it's not, imo, about what goes on here on this thread or on this site. I am not trying to silence anyone here or anywhere.

I restate my point, that in the world, men who are not aware of male privilege, do harm. i hope that all men take responsibility for that unequivocally. i do not think that requests for exemptions, if that is what i am hearing, make any sense in real world situations.

i have no control over any one else's behavior. i do not want it. i do know that the more often i am told that my concern with the harm that male privilege can do should not be a priority, the less likely i am to hear others' concerns also. Male privilege is a safety issue for me.

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by Martina

Isn't male privilege useful FOR speaking up when sexist remarks are made? i know this is a trans thread. i am not sure i can do any good by speaking here. i have been asked questions and then criticized for coming in here at all. My responses have been characterized as finger wagging and as shouting down. i can't really productively engage with that.

Thinker and Ender, it's not about how i feel about the lives of transmen. Of course, i must take responsibility for cis-privilege. And it's not, imo, about what goes on here on this thread or on this site. I am not trying to silence anyone here or anywhere.

I restate my point, that in the world, men who are not aware of male privilege, do harm. i hope that all men take responsibility for that unequivocally. i do not think that requests for exemptions, if that is what i am hearing, make any sense in real world situations.

i have no control over any one else's behavior. i do not want it. i do know that the more often i am told that my concern with the harm that male privilege can do should not be a priority, the less likely i am to hear others' concerns also. Male privilege is a safety issue for me.

I'm embarrassed to admit that I'm not entirely clear what you're saying here. Does this have to do with my decision not to engage Jacques or respond to his comment?

If so (and I realize that may not be what your point was) then all I have to say to that is this... Sometimes people post things here for NO OTHER REASON than to spark a fire or poke at someone/something. For me, personally, I felt that was what was happening, and I opted not to go down a road that I (again, just me) felt would be fruitless and would take the light off what I felt was a more important discussion.

Again, that's just me and why I did what I did and said what I said.

I know from experience (as I'm sure most of us do) that you can't educate everyone and you can't get them to see another perspective. I also know that in discussion forums, in particular, there are people who *intentionally* drop little stink bombs just to get the discussion to go elsewhere. I just wasn't willing to do that, and I still don't think it would have been wise or beneficial to engage Jacques in that instance.

And again, to Jacques... I really mean no disrespect to you on a personal level. I just have a strong gut feeling that you weren't really trying to participate in a positive way. The fact that you only made one comment and then repeated it tells me I just might be right.

And if I'm wrong...well....it won't be the first time and it certainly won't be the last.

Martina, if I was way off here, my apologies to you. Like I said, I couldn't grasp a clear point with what you wrote. I'm sure that's on me. If I was off, then maybe you wouldn't mind a little elaboration???

Respectfully,
Thinker

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

^This pretty much sums up my thoughts on the post/repost as well. To me those kinds of comments also throw a stick in the spokes when it comes to communicating concerns to each other. Kind of like going backward rather than forward.

Exactly. The bolded statement especially.

[Martina]

My first sentence had to do with that. And i agree it's every person's choice whether to engage, but it just seemed ironic given the discussion.

The rest had to do with previous posts in which you and Ender had asked me some questions.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by Martina

i am not talking about the circumstances of a man's life or making generalizations about how much he may get out of his privilege.

i may not KNOW that i am interacting with a transman. i do know i am interacting with a man. And if he is careless about the way he handles his privilege, he will do harm. i do not like to hear anyone denying that responsibility. It's not all about the transmen's personal experience or how educated a cis-gender person should be ideally.

The fact is that in the office or sitting in a classroom, a man interacting with a woman has a responsibility to be aware of male privilege and how that can disempower her.

All gender privilege is unearned. It doesn't matter how one comes by it (i.e.. attractiveness, "passing privilege", transitioning, etc.). It's all unearned because it's a byproduct of patriarchy.

These issues can be argued to the point of inanity, but they count for nothing if we do not excavate the inherent sexism entrenched in the false duality of gender roles.

The capacity to do that may be a lost art.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by Martina

My first sentence had to do with that. And i agree it's every person's choice whether to engage, but it just seemed ironic given the discussion.

The rest had to do with previous posts in which you and Ender had asked me some questions.

Your posts have been perfectly clear. I agree with you. There is no justification for anyone exerting any kind of gender privilege over anyone, ever. How they arrive at that privilege is incidental.

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by Martina

My first sentence had to do with that. And i agree it's every person's choice whether to engage, but it just seemed ironic given the discussion.

I agree with you on both counts. And given the situation, the manner in which he posted, and a little history of similar posts, I opted out of engaging.

I do the very best I can in navigating this new "me" and my new life. I have addressed unbelievably ignorant and cruel statements and felt my heart beating in my throat when doing so. I have also ignored some ignorant sh*t.

I don't think for one second I have made the correct decision each time. As a matter of fact, I think I screw up quite a bit. But I can say with 100% certainty that I do more good than harm, and I treat ALL people with the same courtesy and respect with which I would like to be treated.

It would be nice if you and everyone I come across approved of every choice I made/make, but that's just not gonna happen. In this particular situation, you have reasons for believing something should have been said; and I have reasons for believing that addressing it would have been a bad move. I don't think either of us is wrong or intended harm; we just see it differently.

[SelfMadeMan]

I think most, if not all, the guys participating in this thread are acknowledging that male privilege exists within the trans community. No one is denying that privilege, but the extent of said privilege, and personal responsibility just can't be applied across the board. There are so many more things that factor into it, and you also have to take into consideration the fact that society is FAR from a safe place for many members of the trans community. Transmen still get shunned, fired, raped, beat, and murdered in this country if they are "found out" by people in their communities. I have received death threats in the past, I was fired from a wonderful job as Marketing Coordinator for a large company. Bad things still happen to us. So a lot of people live in fear of being "found out".
I think what people are trying to say, is that there are so many things that factor in where transmen are concerned, and it's not as simple as, ok you're a man now, here's all your privilege, your life just got easier. It sort of minimizes how difficult transition can be, and how taxing it is personally and socially. We simply don't all get the privilege of living out loud a lot of the time.

[HerDaddy]

Originally Posted by Corkey

I'm with Bent and Thinker

Is this because your a coward? You cant think for yourself? I'm just curious, a few pages back you literally ran over Mike for his opinions. But now you agree with one transman, and another she butch.

I'm sorry i'm just confused. You are a she butch. Taking any type of male hormone such as T doesnt make you male ID Butch or ftm.

I'm still reading, but its better to have or form your own opinions, than being a follower.

[weatherboi]

Originally Posted by HerDaddy

Is this because your a coward? You cant think for yourself? I'm just curious, a few pages back you literally ran over Mike for his opinions. But now you agree with one transman, and another she butch.

I'm sorry i'm just confused. You are a she butch. Taking any type of male hormone such as T doesnt make you male ID Butch or ftm.

I'm still reading, but its better to have or form your own opinions, than being a follower.

excuse me could you please clarify yourself a little better because your post seems a little angry...and the hioghlighted part could you expound because it feels really gross what you are stating here...thank you