Open Letter: Dear Femme

[Arwen]

While I do value the butch/trans/other input, I think that this needs to be for femmes and about femmes and by femmes.

It is not that I think a butch can not answer these questions. It is that I think femmes MUST answer them.

There can be no cheating on this test...if you will.

And I do view this as a test. Can I define myself in such a way that femme is not hip-joined (or other -joined) to who I am emotionally and physically attracted to?

Still working on it.

[KayCee]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

*I* Snow a Femme person type, would love to have femme's speak for themselves and NOT take a step back and let or allow the butch talk on their behalf.. For me and this is just me- I don't think and I could be wrong that any butch can honestly speak for me, about me, and about what I experience...

I could be wrong though

The problem is IMO that we start asking in the first place...femme asks a question..butch answers..

..if we allow it..is another point!

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by kat6071

The problem is IMO that we start asking in the first place...femme asks a question..butch answers..

..if we allow it..is another point!

I was wondering if you could clarify I am having a hard time getting this..

Are you saying that femme's should not ask questions?

Sorry it's one of those morning where my brain is just not functioning..

[Isadora]

Originally Posted by kat6071

The problem is IMO that we start asking in the first place...femme asks a question..butch answers..

..if we allow it..is another point!

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I was wondering if you could clarify I am having a hard time getting this..

Are you saying that femme's should not ask questions?

Sorry it's one of those morning where my brain is just not functioning..

I don't get it either. Are you saying that only butches should answer femme questions? Or what Snow said? Or am I just...
dazed and confused, too.

[Bit]

Snow, Isa, if I understand right, Kat is saying that we shouldn't be asking the Butches to answer questions about us in this thread.

[SuperFemme]

Right. So do we need to clarify that in a clearly Femme id'd space? It seems tiresome to me to have to have a disclaimer of "only femmes answer me please".

[SuperFemme]

Has anybody here had the experience of being taken more seriously by both other Femme's and the rest of the community once you are in a long term relationship?

I am coming up on five years with Plato, and finally others have stopped acting like I am out to steal their honey. I personally never think twice about who Plato is around. If hy chose to cheat, that would be on hym. If it was a friend of mine? Same thing. It feels to *me* like there is a tendency to treat others as predators or some such thing.

When I was single I was labeled a slut. I kept hearing about people I'd had sex with. Sigh. Wish I"D BEEN THERE.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by Adele

Right. So do we need to clarify that in a clearly Femme id'd space? It seems tiresome to me to have to have a disclaimer of "only femmes answer me please".

I think it's already been clarified, Adele. Multiple people have said in multiple ways, "please, no one speak for us; let us speak for ourselves," and I think probably everyone gets that now.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Bit

I think it's already been clarified, Adele. Multiple people have said in multiple ways, "please, no one speak for us; let us speak for ourselves," and I think probably everyone gets that now.

Right, so in that vein, I think that it is FINE if a butch or trans guy responds. Not for us, not about us, but in support of us. Those are the lines that I think get blurred. I for one would LOVE to hear dialogue on ways butches and trans guys can be supportive. From their own mouths. And I am pretty sure that is welcome here.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Has anybody here had the experience of being taken more seriously by both other Femme's and the rest of the community once you are in a long term relationship?

I am coming up on five years with Plato, and finally others have stopped acting like I am out to steal their honey. I personally never think twice about who Plato is around. If hy chose to cheat, that would be on hym. If it was a friend of mine? Same thing. It feels to *me* like there is a tendency to treat others as predators or some such thing.

When I was single I was labeled a slut. I kept hearing about people I'd had sex with. Sigh. Wish I"D BEEN THERE.

Yes, I feel taken much more seriously since I have been in a relationship.
Wayyy more seriously.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Yes, I feel taken much more seriously since I have been in a relationship.
Wayyy more seriously.

Me too! Did you ever feel others were suspect of you when you were single? Did you feel less visible? Less valued?

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Has anybody here had the experience of being taken more seriously by both other Femme's and the rest of the community once you are in a long term relationship?

I am coming up on five years with Plato, and finally others have stopped acting like I am out to steal their honey. I personally never think twice about who Plato is around. If hy chose to cheat, that would be on hym. If it was a friend of mine? Same thing. It feels to *me* like there is a tendency to treat others as predators or some such thing.

When I was single I was labeled a slut. I kept hearing about people I'd had sex with. Sigh. Wish I"D BEEN THERE.

This is a big HELL YES for me. I have a noticed a huge difference in treatment from both Femmes AND Butches since being in a long-term relationship.

Sadly, I have also noticed that there is often a long memory for gossip and salacious drama.

I have been with Jackhammer for going on 5 years as well and yet, I had an interaction very recently with another Femme reminding me that "my past was colorful and that I had "been around". Nevermind the fact that I have dated exactly THREE people in 10 years. And it isnt even about the fucking numbers. If I had dated and fucked 50 people a month for the last 10 years, it still does not give someone the right to question my relationship status with Jack now or ever. Now, in this circumstance, I know that the person making the statements was making a shitty attempt to silence me with shame. Not so much on that for me anymore.

I even still hear people to this day questioning how the relationship with Jackhammer and I formed. I have had people gossip behind my back and even ask outright to my face "Weren't you both with other people?" as if to invalidate our relationship. I usually give the same spill when this happens:
"Although its nobody's business but ours, the answer is technically "yes". We both LIVED with our exes but had been BOTH been sleeping apart from our exes for a while (a year for me, three years for Jack). We had known each other for 6 years prior to that, we never cheated with each other. When we had the conversation about wanting to be together, we both immediately told her exes and proceeded to make arrangements to disentangle from them".

And just as a sidenote, this "disentanglement" cost me personally about $20,000 in home equity, multiple large personal items like a washer and dryer, furniture, pets, a riding lawnmower, and a vehicle that was in my exes name that was 8 months from being paid off that I had made the $2000 cash down payment on and paid every single payment on from day one that I just WALKED AWAY from. This was NOT something that I just flippantly did. It was a life decision with GREAT financial reprecussions and I still get angry when I think of all of the people who thought they had a right to make judgments on why I left and HOW I left. I also never went public with my reasons for leaving my ex, but it was assumed by most who were even peripheral that it must have been because I "cheated", that I MUST have done something wrong because I was, after all, a "liar", a "whore", a "slut", and a "golddigger". The "golddigger" part is *really* laughable since I worked 2 jobs the ENTIRE span of my last relationship.
(Incidentally, it cost Jack $30,000 cash and a year and a half in court to disentangle from her ex)

I dont mean to spew and want to make clear that none of these players are members here on BFP. The reason I give all of this background is because people who had never even set foot in my home started trying to tell me about my relationship. People who had never even held a conversation with my ex were just automatically "on her side" because of the things that they "thought" they knew about me. People who had ever had any kind of ax to grind with me came out of the woodwork like a bunch of cockroaches to befriend my ex in her "time of need", help spread vicious and untrue gossip about me, and take the personal information that my ex was telling these new "friends" of hers so that they could try to shame me, silence me, or make me feel like a pile of shit.

How this relates to the experience of being taken seriously is multiplied exponentially with all of my experiences as a single Femme, a partnered Femme, a married Femme, and a separated Femme. Intersect those identities with classism, sizism, and ageism and you have a melting pot of goo that wont quit.

Am I taken more seriously now? In some ways, yes.
I have noticed that my sexuality isnt taken as seriously on some level. Maybe because Im now "off the market permanently" or because Im aging. Who knows.

I will say that this is a brilliant discussion and I cant wait to hear more.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Me too! Did you ever feel others were suspect of you when you were single? Did you feel less visible? Less valued?

Totally. I went to one of the bashes by myself years ago and yes, I was extremely suspect, in fact, by the end the second day I was getting phone calls from Nashville full of news of my exploits (sexploits?). After that, I went straight back to my room and ordered room service alone each night. But there was talk anyway.

Add Cynthia to the picture and automatically I am accepted and somehow am even seen as prim and proper (as if!).

I remember when I met you, you were single and seemed lost in a sea of judgement. I so knew that feeling. I remember just hugging you at the Ball, I had no words to say to make it all better.

Anyone else experince this?

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Medusa

This is a big HELL YES for me. I have a noticed a huge difference in treatment from both Femmes AND Butches since being in a long-term relationship.

Sadly, I have also noticed that there is often a long memory for gossip and salacious drama.

I have been with Jackhammer for going on 5 years as well and yet, I had an interaction very recently with another Femme reminding me that "my past was colorful and that I had "been around". Nevermind the fact that I have dated exactly THREE people in 10 years. And it isnt even about the fucking numbers. If I had dated and fucked 50 people a month for the last 10 years, it still does not give someone the right to question my relationship status with Jack now or ever. Now, in this circumstance, I know that the person making the statements was making a shitty attempt to silence me with shame. Not so much on that for me anymore.

I even still hear people to this day questioning how the relationship with Jackhammer and I formed. I have had people gossip behind my back and even ask outright to my face "Weren't you both with other people?" as if to invalidate our relationship. I usually give the same spill when this happens:
"Although its nobody's business but ours, the answer is technically "yes". We both LIVED with our exes but had been BOTH been sleeping apart from our exes for a while (a year for me, three years for Jack). We had known each other for 6 years prior to that, we never cheated with each other. When we had the conversation about wanting to be together, we both immediately told her exes and proceeded to make arrangements to disentangle from them".

And just as a sidenote, this "disentanglement" cost me personally about $20,000 in home equity, multiple large personal items like a washer and dryer, furniture, pets, a riding lawnmower, and a vehicle that was in my exes name that was 8 months from being paid off that I had made the $2000 cash down payment on and paid every single payment on from day one that I just WALKED AWAY from. This was NOT something that I just flippantly did. It was a life decision with GREAT financial reprecussions and I still get angry when I think of all of the people who thought they had a right to make judgments on why I left and HOW I left. I also never went public with my reasons for leaving my ex, but it was assumed by most who were even peripheral that it must have been because I "cheated", that I MUST have done something wrong because I was, after all, a "liar", a "whore", a "slut", and a "golddigger". The "golddigger" part is *really* laughable since I worked 2 jobs the ENTIRE span of my last relationship.
(Incidentally, it cost Jack $30,000 cash and a year and a half in court to disentangle from her ex)

I dont mean to spew and want to make clear that none of these players are members here on BFP. The reason I give all of this background is because people who had never even set foot in my home started trying to tell me about my relationship. People who had never even held a conversation with my ex were just automatically "on her side" because of the things that they "thought" they knew about me. People who had ever had any kind of ax to grind with me came out of the woodwork like a bunch of cockroaches to befriend my ex in her "time of need", help spread vicious and untrue gossip about me, and take the personal information that my ex was telling these new "friends" of hers so that they could try to shame me, silence me, or make me feel like a pile of shit.

How this relates to the experience of being taken seriously is multiplied exponentially with all of my experiences as a single Femme, a partnered Femme, a married Femme, and a separated Femme. Intersect those identities with classism, sizism, and ageism and you have a melting pot of goo that wont quit.

Am I taken more seriously now? In some ways, yes.
I have noticed that my sexuality isnt taken as seriously on some level. Maybe because Im now "off the market permanently" or because Im aging. Who knows.

I will say that this is a brilliant discussion and I cant wait to hear more.

Been around???? What are we back in the 40's??????

Christ on a cracker.

I have been called a "golddigger" too. I am WAY more upset about that than pretty much anything I have ever been called. I don't think I will EVER get over that.

Yes I have been way wild, yes I have participated in way risky behavior, yes I am fat, yes I am 46, but I work really hard and always have and I am no fucking Golddigger *picture me screeching*

[SuperFemme]

Medusa! I can so totally relate.

What is it that makes others so judgmental? In my experience the people perpetuating stories had vested interest in always keeping the spotlight off of themselves and their fuckery.

When I see a Femme get together with someone I notice a lot of negativity. That person is not good for her. They won't last. Whatever the FUCK happened to support? I am thrilled when my friends are happy. I am rooting for them (unless they are with an verified abuser, in that case I will be concerned).

So I'm sorry that you went through that. It is so hard to ride out the storm and come out on the other side whole.

I'm speculating but I wonder if it helped both you and I that we got to ride out that storm with our best friends (read;partners). The difficult part for me was that I wanted/needed other friends too. Instead I was left with vultures picking the meat off my bones for the most part.

I hear you about the sexuality part. This kind of validates the conversation we are having in this thread. Sexuality is threatening when it is stand alone. It fucking scares people when Femmes own their sexuality and Butch's, Trans guys are perceived as more virile.

A Femme who does not fill the supporting role is an interloper.

What is our role as Femmes in this?

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Totally. I went to one of the bashes by myself years ago and yes, I was extremely suspect, in fact, by the end the second day I was getting phone calls from Nashville full of news of my exploits (sexploits?). After that, I went straight back to my room and ordered room service alone each night. But there was talk anyway.

Add Cynthia to the picture and automatically I am accepted and somehow am even seen as prim and proper (as if!).

I remember when I met you, you were single and seemed lost in a sea of judgement. I so knew that feeling. I remember just hugging you at the Ball, I had no words to say to make it all better.

Anyone else experince this?

Your kindness to me in Vegas helped me hang on. You give GREAT first impression and sometimes words aren't needed! I'd like to note that because I chose to not take any dates to Vegas I was accused of sleeping with several people whilst there. By the time the Ball rolled around a rumor was circulating that people had *searched* my suitcase in my room and discovered that my medication bottles were filled with vitamins and I was lying about having medical issues. Ummm? Seriously? Besides the fact that my meds were in my purse that whole thing was ridiculous. People gobbled it up and regurgitated it for years though. I was SO stressed that I had a seizure in the bathroom at the Ball which my friends held me through and sang opera to me.

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Been around???? What are we back in the 40's??????

Christ on a cracker.

I have been called a "golddigger" too. I am WAY more upset about that than pretty much anything I have ever been called. I don't think I will EVER get over that.

Yes I have been way wild, yes I have participated in way risky behavior, yes I am fat, yes I am 46, but I work really hard and always have and I am no fucking Golddigger *picture me screeching*

You cannot win for losing. It has been said that I "buy my friends like Barbie". I pay to fuck. Laughable. On the other side of the coin? So what if I did? Whose business is it anyway?

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Bit

Snow, Isa, if I understand right, Kat is saying that we shouldn't be asking the Butches to answer questions about us in this thread.

Thanks Bit, I am hoping Kat comes in and answers though too..

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Right. So do we need to clarify that in a clearly Femme id'd space? It seems tiresome to me to have to have a disclaimer of "only femmes answer me please".

So, how does this happen, why do butches answer for us when it's about us? Are we stepping back and letting it happen? Is it expected cause we are *femme* is this correct behaviour?

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Has anybody here had the experience of being taken more seriously by both other Femme's and the rest of the community once you are in a long term relationship?

I am coming up on five years with Plato, and finally others have stopped acting like I am out to steal their honey. I personally never think twice about who Plato is around. If hy chose to cheat, that would be on hym. If it was a friend of mine? Same thing. It feels to *me* like there is a tendency to treat others as predators or some such thing.

When I was single I was labeled a slut. I kept hearing about people I'd had sex with. Sigh. Wish I"D BEEN THERE.

I am the soul sucking, will steal your butch, Lilith reincarnated why? I choose not to be in a long term relationship, *I* Snow choose to enjoy the fact I have a vagina and she loves to get fucked, *I* Snow have a big ol cock and oh yes I love to have it sucked clean.. *I* Snow do not like being tied down to one particular person, *I* Snow am sexual and have no qualms talking about how I like to fuck, wanna be fucked and will fuck. Though from the rumors you would swear I have fucked half the country.. Maybe sex scares some people, or maybe just those that are flapping their jaws are jealous? The world will never know..

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Me too! Did you ever feel others were suspect of you when you were single? Did you feel less visible? Less valued?

No... No.. No... Do I enjoy the whispers and the pointing, when I was younger I was bothered, now I just raise my martini glass and smirk

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Your kindness to me in Vegas helped me hang on. You give GREAT first impression and sometimes words aren't needed! I'd like to note that because I chose to not take any dates to Vegas I was accused of sleeping with several people whilst there. By the time the Ball rolled around a rumor was circulating that people had *searched* my suitcase in my room and discovered that my medication bottles were filled with vitamins and I was lying about having medical issues. Ummm? Seriously? Besides the fact that my meds were in my purse that whole thing was ridiculous. People gobbled it up and regurgitated it for years though. I was SO stressed that I had a seizure in the bathroom at the Ball which my friends held me through and sang opera to me.

oy vey, remember the rumor about how I was going to kill you that year?



You cannot win for losing. It has been said that I "buy my friends like Barbie". I pay to fuck. Laughable. On the other side of the coin? So what if I did? Whose business is it anyway?

Hey, you still owe me that Big Mac meal for our friendship.. Pay up damn it

[KayCee]

Originally Posted by Bit

Snow, Isa, if I understand right, Kat is saying that we shouldn't be asking the Butches to answer questions about us in this thread.

Thanks Bit!

Snow, Isa, I was actually quoting you, Snow and I totally agree with you. We need to speak up for ourselves and not let anyone answer for us..no matter who it is. It's not about femme's asking questions, .. it's about letting butches answer for or about us.. We don't need to question ourselves at all....that's what I meant.

sorry for confusion...

[SuperFemme]

I won't point out what an amazing person Snow is. Nope. I thought we had a deal on our friendship? If you love me for five years you get a Big Mac AND a Coke. If you love me for ten years you get a lifetime supply of ice.

[Isadora]

Originally Posted by kat6071

Thanks Bit!

Snow, Isa, I was actually quoting you Snow and I totally agree with you. We need to speak up for ourselves and not let anyone answer for us..no matter who it is. It's not about femme's not asking questions, it's about letting butches answer for or about us..that's what I meant.

sorry for confusion...

No problem. Thank you for clarifying.