Male ID butch vs. FTM??

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I am happy to hear about transmen's lives and the challenges they face. It can be confusing at times because sometimes transmen seem to be quite offended when they are viewed differently from other men and sometimes they are asking to be seen as different.

There's a difference between the way a person wants to be seen and the way the majority of society actually sees them. Because of that, there are a lot of social/economic issues and challenges that touch transmen that don't touch straight cismen to the same degree no matter how a transman wants to be seen. While a transman is no less of a man than a cisman, he does have different challenges, because of the way society perceives trans people, that will likely persist throughout his life. Those challenges affect the way he walks through the world.

I think that's the issue for a lot of people under the "trans" umbrella.

They may not always or necessarily want to be seen as different when it comes to gender, but the statistical reality is that we are at a much higher risk than other men. That, I think, is where a distinction should be made for the purpose of improving human rights issues.

It also depends on the transman/woman. Some want to be seen as specifically transmen/women, or no gender specifically, while others want to be seen as simply male/female. Or a combination of identities. I don't think any one way of looking at it can be applied to all trans people.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

There's a difference between the way a person wants to be seen and the way the majority of society actually sees them. Because of that, there are a lot of social/economic issues and challenges that touch transmen that don't touch straight cismen to the same degree no matter how a transman wants to be seen. While a transman is no less of a man than a cisman, he does have different challenges, because of the way society perceives trans people, that will likely persist throughout his life. Those challenges affect the way he walks through the world.

I think that's the issue for a lot of people under the "trans" umbrella.

They may not always or necessarily want to be seen as different when it comes to gender, but the statistical reality is that we are at a much higher risk than other men. That, I think, is where a distinction should be made for the purpose of improving human rights issues.

It also depends on the transman/woman. Some want to be seen as specifically transmen/women, or no gender specifically, while others want to be seen as simply male/female. Or a combination of identities. I don't think any one way of looking at it can be applied to all trans people.

Yes I understand that. Not being seen as how we want to be seen- that is true for most all of us. Butch is not well understood and we are not always seen as the women we are (for those of us who do view ourselves as women).

Yes, I agree that the risks and challenges that trans people face should be identified and worked on/fought against.

[EnderD_503]

Also have a question to other male/trans identities whether male id butch, FTM, transguy etc. Do you find or have you found that your identity shifts at all? The way you perceive yourself versus the way you explain yourself to people depending on the environment? If you don't id specifically as a FTM or transguy but present as male id'd butch or a related identity, do you find yourself partially adopting a trans identity in order to better explain yourself to others in ways they might find easier to understand? Or perhaps as you go through your transition? Or maybe you find it more and more of a convenience or necessity from an activist perspective?

Or on the other hand: if you do or have identified as FTM or transguy specifically, do you find yourself letting go of the FTM/transguy labels as you go through your transition and no longer need access to certain resources? Distance yourself from a common trans pursuit for equality? Desire to simply melt away from a trans/ftm id?

In general, no matter your male/trans id, how has your relationship with the word "trans" changed over time (if it has at all)? If so, how and why do you think that is?

[Corkey]

[QUOTE=EnderD_503;297518]Also have a question to other male/trans identities whether male id butch, FTM, transguy etc. Do you find or have you found that your identity shifts at all? No. The way you perceive yourself versus the way you explain yourself to people depending on the environment? If you don't id specifically as a FTM or transguy but present as male id'd butch or a related identity, do you find yourself partially adopting a trans identity in order to better explain yourself to others in ways they might find easier to understand? [COLOR="rgb(0, 100, 0)"]No, I don't adopt FTM for myself because I'm not transitioning.[/COLOR] Or perhaps as you go through your transition? Or maybe you find it more and more of a convenience or necessity from an activist perspective? [COLOR="rgb(0, 100, 0)"]I explain I am male ID TG Butch, I'm not FTM and the two are separate identities.[/COLOR]

Or on the other hand: if you do or have identified as FTM or transguy specifically, do you find yourself letting go of the FTM/transguy labels as you go through your transition and no longer need access to certain resources? Distance yourself from a common trans pursuit for equality? Desire to simply melt away from a trans/ftm id?

In general, no matter your male/trans id, how has your relationship with the word "trans" changed over time (if it has at all)? If so, how and why do you think that is? [COLOR="rgb(0, 100, 0)"]My ID remains the same, I don't co-opt others ID's as that is not how I ID.

[/COLOR]

[DomnNC]

First off, let me say I'm an old dude and all these abbreviations and splitting hairs is just so unnecessary at times and is what is divisive among us at best. I'm not trying to be judgemental here but let me ask this:

Do any of ya'll really really think that when we identify as male or have transitioned that there is a magic switch we throw where we forget, just totally forget all the struggles, hostility, bias and discrimination that we felt when we were readily female identified? Think about it, if you male identify and unless you have transitioned, (and still in some cases if you work at the same employer) that we still aren't met with the same discrimination, bias, judgemental attitudes and hate as a readily identifyable female?

We have to fill out the same paperwork as any female has to in order to get a job and for tax purposes, and if you haven't transitioned but male identify you still have to check that lil box labeled female, so therefore you are still met with the same bias, judgemental attitudes and discrimination as any other woman whether you female identify or not, there is no male privilege extended to those who male identify but still have to check that lil box (well not in my experience anyway).

Furthermore, I happen to think that those who haven't transitioned but male identify (and in some cases when you have transitioned) have opened up the job market quite a bit for other women. Those jobs where the idea was that "oh women can't do that" were proven wrong when they hired a butch woman or one who male identifies, so therefore it opened the doors for other women who followed however they may have identified because it was proven that yes, a woman can do that job!

I don't for one instant believe that anyone from this website who has transitioned has forgotten their struggles, discrimination, bias, abuse etcetcetc and what they went thru when they still had to check that little box that said female. I have seen nothing but support offered for those who female identify from the guys here who have transitioned and those who male identify as well. These guys are still the same person that they always were, your inner core and most heartfelt beliefs don't change just because you take a shot of T or transition. You are still aware of the discrimination, bias etcetc but only at a heightened awareness now because you have added something else to the pot to make you be discriminated against.

Most people don't get transitioning and unless you've truly felt you were born in the wrong body then most people will never ever get it or understand it and attempt to treat guys who transition the same as a "real cis man", declare they have the same rights/privileges as a cis man when that is simply not the truth. You may look the part, you may act the part but there is always someone who will know the truth of how you became a man and that leaves open the possibility of violence and discrimination on a whole other level.

In all the talks of male privilege I have ever seen here no one here has denied that to some extent those of us who pass and those of us who have transitioned get a little bit of "privilege", but not to the extent of a cis male. It's those posts that hammer and attempt to silence the male identified and those who have transitioned that I don't agree with at all. Even when one tries to discuss the issue within the thread it doesn't matter what anyone says there is always someone screaming you're silencing me, it gets old, really old. Either you want to discuss it AND listen or you don't! But you can't have a one sided discussion and expect the male identified and the transitioned to sit back and have it tossed in their face on a daily basis that they have ALL this privilege, they don't. The way I see a discussion is you discuss it, then it's over with, unless someone blatantly tosses "male privilege" at you in the course of a discussion over something else, it's not something to be thrown into almost every single thread here where there is a discussion of something totally unrelated going on (not in my opinion anyway). I've not seen one guy who has transitioned or one guy who male identifies tell a woman here to put a sock in it, to shut up, to leave the thread, etcetcetc. It's almost like some of you want us that male identify and can pass or those who have transition to lay down on our bellies, crawl like a snake and beg your (general) forgiveness for simply being who we are. Chuckles, I for one will never do that. I have no apologies to make to anyone for being simply who I am.

I look at my transitioned brothers as still just the same brother I always had, he's no different inside than I am. He knows my struggles intimately as I know his. He just happened to have been fortunate to mesh his outer self with his inner self, he's still the same inner self he always was.

One other thing to think of, us that male identify or who have transitioned can often be in a place to promote the hiring of women. Before I left my full time job due to my back disability, when I started working there, there were men in every place of management at the family owned company I worked for, I was the lone one that had to check that lil box that read female. I was put on the hiring committee for the management positions within the company in the office and some in the plants and remote locations. Before I left that company every management position at the main location was occupied by women with the exception of the Owner (obviously who was the President) and the Vice-President, there were others at the remote locations who were put into management. Just a little something to think about when you (general) feel like bashing those of us who can pass and those who have transitioned. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has done that.

Thanks for listening!

[Corkey]

I don't check those boxes. If they can't figure it out, they don't get an answer.

[DomnNC]

I hear ya Corkey, sometimes I don't either but being in the position I was in the last company I was often privy to personnel files as well. I pulled mine and some ass checked it for me!! lol.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I agree with this. I don't think Thinker and I represent opposing sides, although I do think I get the short hand Chazz was trying to describe in a few words. I do think that a meeting of the minds may be possible even if people are not coming from the same perspective if there is genuine good will and the recognition that we have to fight sexism together- for our shared as well as separate best interests.

Thank you for understanding my tendency to speak in concise, short hand.

As some one who had visited this discussion many times over many years, I'm not sure a meeting of the mind can occur based on good will alone. Perspective matters when it comes to prioritizing ones personal and political agenda.

Originally Posted by BullDog

There are very real reasons why women need to be very vigilant about sexism.

Indeed, there are.

I, too, subscribe to the notion that sexism is the root of all homophobia and transphobia.

[Chazz]

Thank you for the exchange, SelfMadeMan.

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

My use of the term "pissing contest" was referencing the drama that, at times, goes down when members of the two groups attempt to have a discussion about the issues between them.

Yes, I understood that.

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

Of course there are genuine differences, the two groups are different, yet under the same umbrella. The pissing contest comes when one group doesn't feel that the other belongs under that umbrella, being the greater GLBT community.

Yes, there are different groups under the umbrella. One group self-defines primarily on the bases of sexual orientation. Another on the bases of gender. Some lesbians see gender as fluid others as an artificial construct. And so on.... I am aware of the issues.

The reality is there are a number of smaller umbrellas under the LGBTQ umbrella. This is not an occasion for "pissing contests"; it's a situation that calls for mutual accommodation where and when possible. When that is not possible, as is sometimes the case, respectful disengagement is an alternative.

Would that the expectation be: We meet where and when we can, so that the burden of unanimity be lifted from all our shoulders.

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

I know as well as anyone how real this issue is, I live it every day, as do the rest of BOTH our communities.

Yes, most of us do "live it every day".

Implied in your phrase: "....BOTH our communities", is an acknowledgment that people are differently located. It's all most of us can can do to navigate our own personal landscapes, let alone someone else's.

With few exceptions, I don't expect that my issues need be any one else's issues, including, people standing under my little umbrella.

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

Perhaps I come into this discussion with rose colored glasses, but I see NO reason there can't be mutual respect between the Butch and Trans communities. In order to respect one another and stop attacking one another, doesn't mean each individual group must abandon their own issues and struggles.

To the extent that there is mutual disrespect, I don't think it necessarily has to do with the expectation that one abandon her/his "issues and struggles", except when it does. I think it has to do with not respecting other peoples' opinions. Which is not to say that all opinions are equally respectable. A moral relativist, I'm not.

However, I do think that there has sometimes been a prioritizing of concerns within the LGBTQ community that doesn't necessarily encompass everybody's "issues and struggles". Take the EDNA controversy for instance.

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

It is a fact that the rift between Butches and Transmen is affecting our community as a whole. It isn't catastrophizing, it is real.

Catastrophizing is real.

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

I've been told by Butches that the Trans vote for women's issues and equality isn't wanted.

My neighbor, Dick, is a dyed in the wool homophobe. I appreciate his voting in agreement with me, nevertheless.

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

While I realize that isn't the majority of Butches, that attitude is still a huge problem for this community. If two groups are different in their issues, then one shouldn't worry about the other? This is exactly what I'm talking about...

I understand your frustration, SelfMadeMan. However, there are places where agendas/perspectives do diverge and conflict. Ignoring, glossing over those areas may serve one, but not both, constituencies. Sometimes agreeing to disagree IS the only respectful route.

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

I am not willing to just say, ok we're different and have different perspectives, so I can't respect yours. This isn't about ignoring these two groups individual issues, it's about solidarity and respect - and that IS possible.

Solidarity in all things is not always possible. The expectation of solidarity can foster enmity.

Respect is earned, provisional, contingent. Beyond respecting my fundamental human rights, you are under no obligation to respect, or agree, with me. If I choose to feel disrespected, it's because you're triggering something in me.

[BullDog]

No DomnNC, I don't think any of those things you are charging women with and don't know of any that do.

I am happy there are people like Mike to talk to who don't get angry and defensive when the topic of male privilege comes up and who treat me with respect and listen and share their own thoughts and experiences. Those are the types of people that I can relate to and give me hope that common ground can be reached.

[DomnNC]

I didn't charge women with anything Bulldog, I do believe I said ALL or ya'll which encompasses ALL quite a bit. I'm not angry and defensive, I stated my opinion just as you do yours. The only thing I stated was the constant derailing of threads here with charges of male privilege, which happens to be the truth for the most part. I've yet to run across a topic in the Trans zone (admittedly I haven't looked at every single one) where someone runs in and starts derailing the thread with male privilege. But thanks for listening and respecting my viewpoint as well, perhaps you should reread and "listen" this time. This thread started out with someone merely asking the difference between male-identified butchs vs trans, look where it is now.

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Also have a question to other male/trans identities whether male id butch, FTM, transguy etc. Do you find or have you found that your identity shifts at all? The way you perceive yourself versus the way you explain yourself to people depending on the environment? If you don't id specifically as a FTM or transguy but present as male id'd butch or a related identity, do you find yourself partially adopting a trans identity in order to better explain yourself to others in ways they might find easier to understand? Or perhaps as you go through your transition? Or maybe you find it more and more of a convenience or necessity from an activist perspective?

Or on the other hand: if you do or have identified as FTM or transguy specifically, do you find yourself letting go of the FTM/transguy labels as you go through your transition and no longer need access to certain resources? Distance yourself from a common trans pursuit for equality? Desire to simply melt away from a trans/ftm id?

In general, no matter your male/trans id, how has your relationship with the word "trans" changed over time (if it has at all)? If so, how and why do you think that is?

Great questions! I personally never partially adopted my Trans ID. I literally left Texas, moved to Boston, and transitioned. I went to support group at that time with a couple of guys who were testing the waters by remaining female IDd at work, home, etc and only going out as Trans in the community. Not saying there's anything wrong with that, I just am an all or nothing kind of person I guess. I needed to make a clean break from the me I felt wasn't honest, to the man I am.
As for labels... I get annoyed by them, and wish they weren't so necessary, although I get why they just are sometimes. I don't really ever use FTM anymore, and not to get into the semantics of it, but I've grown uncomfortable to its very implication with how I ID. I've also strayed away from using the term Transgender, and prefer Transsexual when referring to myself. Like I said, I'm annoyed by labels, but sometimes find it necessary, as I do panels and speak at Universities.
So I guess I would say that yes, my relationship with the word 'trans' has changed throughout the years as I've grown and changed. But it's a good thing :-)

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by Chazz

I understand your frustration, SelfMadeMan. However, there are places where agendas/perspectives do diverge and conflict. Ignoring, glossing over those areas may serve one, but not both, constituencies. Sometimes agreeing to disagree IS the only respectful route.

Solidarity in all things is not always possible. The expectation of solidarity can foster enmity.
.

Thank you for your response... I really do appreciate your contribution to this conversation. Perhaps this is one of those times we respectfully have to agree to disagree on certain aspects of this issue. You see, I don't think asking for members of the GLBT community to stop attacking one another, even when they aren't on the same page, is glossing over anything, and I do think solidarity in this community is possible, especially when fighting for equality and freedom from oppression.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one..." - John Lennon

[DomnNC]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

Thank you for your response... I really do appreciate your contribution to this conversation. Perhaps this is one of those times we respectfully have to agree to disagree on certain aspects of this issue. You see, I don't think asking for members of the GLBT community to stop attacking one another, even when they aren't on the same page, is glossing over anything, and I do think solidarity in this community is possible, especially when fighting for equality and freedom from oppression.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one..." - John Lennon

I agree with you 100% on this. It's time for the bickering to end, we're ALL in the same boat of discrimination, harrassment, and judgemental attitudes and we ALL want the same thing and that is equality and protection under the law.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

Thank you for your response... I really do appreciate your contribution to this conversation. Perhaps this is one of those times we respectfully have to agree to disagree on certain aspects of this issue. You see, I don't think asking for members of the GLBT community to stop attacking one another, even when they aren't on the same page, is glossing over anything, and I do think solidarity in this community is possible, especially when fighting for equality and freedom from oppression.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one..." - John Lennon

Thank you, you're welcome, and likewise, I'm sure. We can agree to disagree.

Maybe you're a little bit of a dreamer. Grand ideals have their place.

In most cases, there is solidarity on the big, issues like human rights and such. However, there are other issues that are knottier, like woman-only spaces and the perception that transitioning endows FTMs with male privilege, etc., etc.. These will not soon be resolved, I think.

Especially, when I read something like this:

It's almost like some of you want us that male identify and can pass or those who have transition to lay down on our bellies, crawl like a snake and beg your (general) forgiveness for simply being who we are. Chuckles, I for one will never do that. I have no apologies to make to anyone for being simply who I am.

This kind of perspective is not inconsequential.

[Jaques]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

Uhh, yeah. So I suppose whenever we talk about violence against women we also need to remind everyone that sometimes women assault men? And there have been at least three cases of women raping men!

Forgive my sarcasm, but am I the only person who can't help taking this bait?

sarcasm forgiven - and there was no bait to take, i never mentioned assault or rape

[Jaques]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

You're right. I should have known better than to respond when I saw that the poster felt compelled to repost the remark after nobody responded the first time. I won't fall for it again.

I didnt feel compelled to repost, just thanking Blade for the response......

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by Chazz

Thank you, you're welcome, and likewise, I'm sure. We can agree to disagree.

Maybe you're a little bit of a dreamer. Grand ideals have their place.

In most cases, there is solidarity on the big, issues like human rights and such. However, there are other issues that are knottier, like woman-only spaces and the perception that transitioning endows FTMs with male privilege, etc., etc.. These will not soon be resolved, I think.

Well since you brought up the knottier issues.... I had to mention that I probably am in solidarity with you on the two topics you touched on. Not to start a whole other thing in here - but I don't think Transmen have any place at a women's only space (i.e. Michigan Women's Music Festival, Women's Universities, etc), nor do I deny that when I transitioned, male privilege came with it. I don't think that has to be a negative, and I honestly don't understand why the mere mention of it pisses some people off. Perhaps it's in the delivery, I don't know, but I do acknowledge I have it and I use it responsibly. My opinions on these issues aren't necessarily popular with some members of the Trans community, so I *get* why you feel that solidarity in all issues may not be possible. But I still think it's something that can be achieved :-)

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

Well since you brought up the knottier issues.... I had to mention that I probably am in solidarity with you on the two topics you touched on. Not to start a whole other thing in here - but I don't think Transmen have any place at a women's only space (i.e. Michigan Women's Music Festival, Women's Universities, etc), nor do I deny that when I transitioned, male privilege came with it. I don't think that has to be a negative, and I honestly don't understand why the mere mention of it pisses some people off. Perhaps it's in the delivery, I don't know, but I do acknowledge I have it and I use it responsibly. My opinions on these issues aren't necessarily popular with some members of the Trans community, so I *get* why you feel that solidarity in all issues may not be possible. But I still think it's something that can be achieved :-)

Time will tell on the knottier issues.

My interest in these issues isn't the conflict, per se. It's the inability for some to "see" or accommodate others needs and yet still insist on solidarity. I don't think you're doing this, SelfMadeMan.

Solidarity is an eye focused on the greater good. It is not, necessarily, unanimity of purpose or belief in all things, at all times. It's a renewable commodity, not stasis. No community can thrive on stasis.

Solidarity comes at a cost. It requires that individuals be able to budge, temporarily at least, move out of their comfort zone, forgo an immediate personal gain for the good of someone else.

This is a difficult thing for people who have suffered oppression, each in their own way, to achieve when their perceived needs sometimes come in conflict. Is it worth aspiring to, sure. The key word here is perceived.

Perceptions aren't reality. Feelings aren't facts. Solidarity is achieved when a common reality is agreed up based upon facts. Each of us must be sure that the story we tell ourselves about our lives, is consistent with the facts of our lives. Otherwise, we're waving at windmills and alienating those who might, otherwise, unite with us towards the greater good. Erecting hierarchies of oppression and playing upon people's emotions and/or guilt will not work over the long term.

That's it for me. I have to tend to the flood in my basement.

[greeneyedgrrl]

I came into this thread waaaay on the tail end! i just wanted to say that i appreciate being educated. i had never heard anyone id as tg butch in the ways described in the thread, nor had i heard of male id'd butch in any context, so this was an eye-opening read for sure. thank you all for your contributions/view points.