01-17-2013, 05:44 PM | #21 | |
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this article by sinclair sexsmith has some background on how butch voices came to use the term, including a diagram of one way to understand "center":
http://www.sugarbutch.net/2011/08/a-...omment-page-1/ Quote:
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01-17-2013, 05:56 PM | #22 | |
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For example: I dont want "he" applied to me and not only do I not use it or other male pronouns when speaking about myself, I even state my preference right over there <--- but sometimes "he" is still applied to me, regardless. When an organization such as Butch Voices changes the verbiage in their mission statement by using "masculine of center" in an effort to create some sort of umbrella term that will not only describe ALL Butches everywhere, but will also lump a bunch of other IDs in together with Butches, that's a bunch of people labeling other people whether they want it to be applied to them or not. For me, this isnt about Butches of color and Studs using a term that I wouldnt use to describe myself, this is about an organization using the term to describe me whether I want them to or not, whether I agree with them or not, and whether I even like the term or not. To be frank, that feels icky. |
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01-17-2013, 05:59 PM | #23 |
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Ok I can find an understanding in this as I use the circle as my way of thinking how I perceive gender fluidity. The Agender though, huh? What pray tell is Agender. Sorry I do not know this.
My circle, the way I perceive gender has no beginning and no end, therefore no hierarchy, no one is greater than the whole.
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01-17-2013, 06:04 PM | #24 | |
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I'll have to see if I can find the dicusssion, it's been a long time ago (maybe 5 or 6 years ago), but it was actually suggested at one point that "Butch" was a racist label for some of the same reasons. (that it was primarly used by white people) I think that the intention to make a term that felt more inclusive for the BV conferences was a good one at heart but the way in which it was carried out was highly problematic for a lot of Butches. I know I read some really interesting discussion on several blogs where masculine Lesbians of Color who did not use the term "Butch" or "Stud" talked about feeling erased by many attempts to create language around their specific identities.
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01-17-2013, 06:06 PM | #25 |
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butch voices' website clearly says
"What identities are under the BUTCH Voices umbrella? Butch, Stud, Aggressive (AG), Macha, Dom, Tomboi, genderqueer, two-spirit, Trans men who identify as Masculine of Center and all other similar identities." the first descriptor on the list is "butch." "masculine of center" is added onto a list of identities. to me, the term is self-selecting - like queer. if i hated the term queer and didn't want it used in reference to me, BUT it was commonly understood that queer spaces were inclusive of me as a same-gender-loving person and/or those spaces said "we welcome queer people, same-gender loving people, lesbians, gays..." - at that point, to me, it is semantics. masculine of center applies to anyone who wants to identify that way. some people use it to be inclusive of butches, studs, aggressives, etc. when speaking. not everyone likes it. not everyone likes gender non-conforming, but if i say the words "gender non-conforming" people will more or less get that i mean folks who transgress gender boundaries and that is inclusive of trans and butch people. it doesn't mean everyone has to like it or use it in reference to themselves. welcome to alphabet soup land - everyone constantly bitches about which word to use. this term was also used before butch voices chose to adopt it, and is used in many communities outside of butch voices, and in my understanding, this thread was to talk about the term itself, not butch voices. if a lot of butches don't want butch voices to use the term...that is an internal conversation to have in the butch voices community. but that doesn't have any bearing on how the term is used outside of butch voices. i've been researching the history of the arguments over the term, and i am repeatedly struck by the fact that this is a term that is predominantly meaningful in poc queer communities, and many qpoc feel alienated in white lesbian, queer, and trans* spaces, and almost all of the backlash against the term has happened AFTER predominantly white spaces have started using it in an effort to be more inclusive of qpoc, and the majority of the backlash is from white folks. |
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01-17-2013, 06:08 PM | #26 |
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I would also submit that Masculinity and Femininity aren't necessarily on opposite ends of the spectrum or opposite sides of a circle from one another.
Attempts to diagram gender often end up with a big "M" on one end and a big "F" on the other end with multiple identities getting plotted somewhere in between. This is hierarchal to me and often ends up feeling erasing of Trans identities. I think in a perfect world, gender would be a 3D pool where all of our various molecules and atoms bump and collide into one another, exist within and outside of one another, and gain strength and power from one another.
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01-17-2013, 06:09 PM | #27 | ||
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01-17-2013, 06:15 PM | #28 |
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Then Agender belongs in the circle, not at a point where all other genders diverge. See the problem I'm having with this? To me MoC is just another way of identifying for an individual, and like Parker when other people use a identifier that I do not identify with, to identify me, there is a problem.
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01-17-2013, 06:16 PM | #29 |
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i'll stop post-spamming after this - i just wanted to provide some context for where the term "masculine of center" (and "feminine of center") came from and how it is used.
http://brownboiproject.org/BBP%20Tow...nd%20Whole.pdf has a lot of info about brown boi's approach to understanding masculinity and gender and might be helpful for those wondering about the context of "masculine of center" and its meaning in (some) poc communities. to me...masculine of center is no better or worse an umbrella term than queer, lgbt, gender non-conforming, etc. they're all problematic and everyone is bound to find something wrong with some of them, or not want to use them. but they can be useful for some people to communicate some things within some contexts. |
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01-17-2013, 06:23 PM | #30 | |
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01-17-2013, 06:35 PM | #31 | |
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okay, i lied, one more quote...
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01-17-2013, 06:40 PM | #32 |
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I don't want to judge or label, just understand. In communication there has to be a definition that people can understand. ''Center' has yet to be explained in a way that meets a logical understanding of the word, for me.
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01-17-2013, 07:10 PM | #33 |
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i don't have any good explanation for the word "center," personally, except for the fact that in the past gender has been understood as a spectrum, with masculinity on one end and femininity on the other, and some people still understand it that way. even if they acknowledge that it's imperfect. when we do gender 101 at the lgbt muslim retreat, we use the "genderbread" man, which makes heavy use of spectrum imagery to explain sex, gender, presentation, orientation, and all other sorts of things. assuming that everyone is on a spectrum, or occupies only one place on a spectrum, or isn't off in the abyss somewhere, is highly problematic. yet it is also primary way that sexual orientation and gender identity are communicated in the dominant euro-american culture.
while i was washing dishes, an analogy occurred to me. i don't know if this is helpful or not for folks who are resistant of any space they interact in being labeled "masculine of center." but...i hate the term "bisexual." i detest it. i think it is biologically essentializing and it marginalizes trans people. i don't feel that it describes me at all and i don't want it anywhere near me and it makes me feel 1000 different kinds of gross. at the same time, i am a femme who is attracted to more than one gender. in that way, i share the lived experience with bisexual-id'ed people of being attracted to more than one gender. i share the lived experience of being labeled slutty, confused, not gay enough, not straight enough. in the lgbt acronym, i don't really feel all that included, but i understand more or less that the "b" is supposed to be inclusive of people like me. many of the main resources, publications, etc. about people who share my lived experiences use the term "bisexual." i may hate it and think it is a shitty descriptor, but if i want to interact with people who have similar lived experiences in mainstream spaces, "bisexual" is a commonly accepted descriptor, so i've learned to deal with it and try not to cringe too much. from my understanding, the term "masculine of center" originated from the belief that butches, studs, transmen, aggressives, bois, etc. share similar lived experiences of transgressing gender boundaries and being marginalized because they present in ways traditionally understood as masculine but were assigned female at birth (and many still identify as female/woman). there are also many differences between them, but they share some commonalities. i think it's also relevant to point out that the butch voices conference is called BUTCH voices, and the first identity listed under "what identities is this conference for" is BUTCH. not "masculine of center." so i don't really understand the freak-out over butch voices being taken over by the term "masculine of center." they didn't change the name to masculine of center voices...? they just attempted to be more inclusive by adding a term that has currency among butches/studs/aggressives/bois of color. to me, building solidarity with other people who share similar struggles and lived experiences is more important than worrying about which label is used. i agree with the quote from the piece that was posted in the race thread that abstract battles over labels can sometimes get in the way of doing meaningful solidarity work. i don't think that we should never problematize labels. but...it seems like this battle has gotten in the way of building connections between predominantly white butch communities and masculine-of-center communities of color. |
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01-17-2013, 07:16 PM | #34 | |
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Perhaps I am sorely misunderstanding you, but this post of yours felt like you just told me that I am bitching about semantics and if I dont like the term masculine of center then not only should I just not use it, but I should just suck it up when others use it to describe me because we ALL have to deal with that. Or as Monica Gellar once said, "Welcome to the real world, it sucks." If I understood you correctly, you could see why that could be a little off-putting for a woman who is a butch to hear a woman who is not a butch say that about a term that is sometimes used to describe butches. It also sounded like you told me what I could and could not talk about in this thread and forum, re: Butch Voices. To clarify, I spoke about BV in part because speaking about BV provided what I felt was a relevant example to my dislike at using that term as an umbrella for all of us to sit under, happily. Someone created a thread about the term masculine of center and asked us what we all thought and felt about the term, do we like it, would we use it, etc and I was responding to that. But I dont seem to be making my point clear about how my objections are not based on what terms POC do or do not use or even about whether others use the term, masculine of center to include POC in their writings, organizations, etc.; my objections stem from people using this term to describe ME without my consent. Not POC, not people who like the term, ME. |
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01-17-2013, 07:17 PM | #35 | |
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I'm totally down with the work, it's always the details that are the problem. I don't think using a descriptor that is vague at best is abstract. *shrugs* I don't know what the answer is, or will be, but I'm open to the work of inclusion for all Humans. Thanks for the attempt at enlightening me.
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01-17-2013, 07:36 PM | #36 | |
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i was attempting to provide another perspective in this thread in which the predominant view has been that "masculine of center" is a bad term, and most of the discussion has been by people outside of the community in which masculine of center was coined/is used. i accept that you don't want the term used in reference to you. i'm not trying to police what you can and cannot post about. i apologize if it came off that way. yes, in a way, i am saying "this is the real world, get used to it" - because it sucks and it is still good to have these arguments but the reality is there has NEVER been a term in lgbt/queer/butch/femme/insert label here history that has made anybody happy or been unproblematic. that doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about it at all. i just...think there should be an element of realism, which is, every single conversation about labels in the history of the world, and this site, has resulted in disagreement. you don't have to agree with me that people should get used to that, i just think it's helpful to point out that that's the nature of language. i'm not saying anyone has to agree. your mileage may vary. i am really, really sorry if i came off as directive. that wasn't my intention and i fucked up. |
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01-17-2013, 07:38 PM | #37 |
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This conversation has made me think today.
To be honest, I rarely think about labels and identities. I think that may be because the only place in my life where there seems to be any need for it is here. I am sure others have occasion to identify themselves as some specific label out in the world. I simply do not. When I am here (on this specific website) I find it is easier from a conversational point of view to have for myself, and to see in others, what general area of the gender spectrum they see themselves. If someone specifies a gender pronoun preference, I respect that and the rest of the time just leave gender out of it. Beyond conversation in a BF online community, I have not needed it. I walk down the street wearing my face and chosen clothing style and it seems that to the degree needed, folks figure out what they will think and do so. If someone is labeling me in their own mind it could include many things, I cannot change their assessment of what they see. They will also categorize my race, age, height, etc. No one is forcing an identity on me beyond what they see visually, and how they process that through their own filters. When they get to know me, their assessments may change and include variations of gender. I never know. Offline, in the 'real' world, I have never felt the need for a highly refined label. I suppose if I went to an event of some sort and someone slapped a "Hello - I'm a __________" on my lapel without asking if I wanted that; then maybe it would matter to me and I could take it off. Maybe that is what this is about. It is interesting to think about though. Sorry, no insight here. Just an observation. |
01-17-2013, 07:47 PM | #38 |
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I think people are still trying to understand. Folks have said that they don't agree with the term being used for them, and I take them at their word. However when the term is used loosely with out a context that is agreed upon, (center), it muddies the field and yep we slip all over the place. So I'm in it to learn, not make pronouncements on anyone else's gender identity. My best read of the thread so far.
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01-17-2013, 07:53 PM | #39 |
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I remembered when I learned that a lot of gay men in Detroit -- and elsewhere I am sure -- ID'd as homosexual, but not gay. This was in the 90's. Even after the early days of HIV and the organizing around it -- and the contact that created between privileged white gay men and everyone else -- a lot of African American gay men had no sense that they belonged in the gay community. And I mean out, exclusively homosexual men. My best friend back home is an African American gay man. He ID's as gay. He has white gay friends, but over time his community became more African American -- and gay or homosexual. But the more contact I had with his world -- I'd always had a fair amt of contact with white gay men -- the more I realized how much fucking WORK it is for Black men to deal with gay white men and their world. It's tiring. And it's just not home for many of them. So I had a lot of respect for the men who didn't ID as gay. One had a Ph.D. and was a professional queer -- ran an agency. So he had had extensive contact with white institutions. But he still did not ID as gay. Again, totally respect that. White gay male culture just wasn't a fit. Wasn't home. Had never been welcoming to many African American men.
So I get that. I get not feeling a strong pull toward identifiers that maybe never worked for you. I have no problem with anyone ID'ing or self-describing any way they want. And truly I am not interested in BV politics. But MoC is put forward as an umbrella term to INCLUDE butch women and other folks. If they don't fit under the umbrella, are they no longer included? ANd if it's OK with you to not include specific groups, yer making a statement, moving your politics and your community in a particular direction -- deliberately. But all that aside, my objections to the term do not come from an attachment to other terms. For one thing, I am not butch. I think that foregrounding gender presentation, and calling it masculine, is highly questionable, even without the idea of a spectrum or a center. It's not just that it excludes people. It makes masculinity the defining characteristic of members of the group. Well, guess what, sometimes I am masculine. I do not ID as MoC or butch or any of the things in those lists. And sometimes my masculinity is not just how I dress, but something deeply internal. Why is masculinity the province of someone else? And have those same people abjured femininity? If so, what kind of sexist consequences are we gonna see from that?? And come on, seriously, isn't creating a gender label called masculine anything and using the word "center" putting oneself on the male side of the conventional binary without problematizing it? Isn't it then reinforcing the binary? To pretend otherwise is naive, in my opinion. Some people won't find that a problem. That's cool. But others will. And if they do not feel comfortable being described as MoC, does that limit their presence in the community if the term gains currency? |
01-17-2013, 07:58 PM | #40 | |
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For the record, I dont think it's necessarily a bad term; but I, personally wouldnt use it to describe myself. To be honest, I would object to any term that anyone would use to describe me when I have not consented to being described in that way. For me, it isnt the term (any term, not just MoC), it is the actions of those who might use it. |
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