Japanese reactor crisis

[Passionaria]

Thanks for taking the time to post this AJ! I appreciate info that I can actually understand. I too, have been very concerned. I am doing research on herbs and supplements that combat radiation poisoning. I will get back to all about what I find.....

Pashi

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Ohhh crap. Trying not to wring my hands but just heard on CNN that the second reactor had an explosion and that they think the containment vessle has been ruptured and that radioactive material may be leaking out.
On the surface I get what this means, but do we have a way of determining how much material will leak and how fast? An equation that says something like "Size of Vessel x temperature of exposed fuel rods x length of exposure = amount of radiation that will escape"? And further, what is the area that will be affected?

And would there be other factors that would affect how much and how long radiation will leak? Like, and pardon my ignorance here, if the temperature is cold outside vs hot and humid, does that make a difference? Does snow help drop that radiation to the ground? What if it rains?

(just call me chicken little)

Those are all good questions and at the absolute outside limit of my current expertise. I don't believe that there is an equation that will allow one to calculate exposure based upon the size of the vessel. I have been unable to find any information (and it may be that no one knows) how badly damaged the containment vessel is. At this moment, most of the radiation danger is still coming from the steam.

I'm quite concerned at this point. I'm not sure that they are going to be able to pull this off.

This is now really terra incognita. It's surpassed TMI but still isn't as bad as Chernobyl.


Cheers
Aj

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Linus

I think the disparity in news is the effect of the internet. We probably won't know for sure until a day or two later. The reality is that news agencies are tripping over each other for the latest and "accurate" (I question how accurate since I don't think they are actually verifying). At the same time, I don't know even if Japanese officials know since the people who would know are doing what they are supposed to: try and contain this as best as they can.

I wonder if there will be a point where they will say "We cannot do anything more.."

Yes, I'm not sure what that point will be but I'm willing to bet that at this point, there are folks on the ground who are saying "I don't think we can stop this thing".

I know that folks don't usually think of scientists and engineers as heroes. But I want to ask everyone to take a moment to think about this:

Right now, on site in Japan, there are people in control rooms working in what are now becoming very hot (radioactively not thermally) conditions. There are ways to deal with exposure: everyone is going to be wearing a dosimeter, everyone will be wearing a mask to keep particulates out of their lungs, they'll be wearing protective clothing. But these are people who are in a hazardous area, the hazard is silent, invisible, and pervasive. You can't dodge it, you can't see it, you can't outrun it, and you have to do a job under conditions at the limit of human cognitive ability, on a system that is already stressed beyond its design specification. These are folks who *know* how nasty radiation sickness can be. They know what those alpha particles are doing to their bodies. They know what Strontium and Cesium can do. Now, I don't know that this happened but any kind of *humane* employer would have said "we can't tell you to stay, so we're going to ask for volunteers". I suspect that everyone on site is there because they volunteered. Unless you are a cop, a firefighter or in the military your employer generally isn't going to ask you to do something that you *know* could get you killed.

The operators on site are heroes. We may not think of them as square-jawed action-figures, but right now everyone of them is being as much a hero as any firefighter.

Cheers
Aj

[Gayla]

I usually tend to take things on face value but right now, I'm sort of on the edge of completely freaking out about this whole thing. The PM is going on TV and telling people that radiation is leaking and I can't help but wonder how much worse it is than what they are saying.

In something I read earlier today, a professional something or another, someone who knows these types of things said, "Right now, I'd worry more about looking both ways when I cross the street than about radiation hitting the West Coast." (totally paraphrased that, but, yeah). I want to know if he's going to come back and tell us when it's time to start worrying? Logically, I know that this is very unlikely but I'm not thinking all that logically right now.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Yes, I'm not sure what that point will be but I'm willing to bet that at this point, there are folks on the ground who are saying "I don't think we can stop this thing".

I know that folks don't usually think of scientists and engineers as heroes. But I want to ask everyone to take a moment to think about this:

Right now, on site in Japan, there are people in control rooms working in what are now becoming very hot (radioactively not thermally) conditions. There are ways to deal with exposure: everyone is going to be wearing a dosimeter, everyone will be wearing a mask to keep particulates out of their lungs, they'll be wearing protective clothing. But these are people who are in a hazardous area, the hazard is silent, invisible, and pervasive. You can't dodge it, you can't see it, you can't outrun it, and you have to do a job under conditions at the limit of human cognitive ability, on a system that is already stressed beyond its design specification. These are folks who *know* how nasty radiation sickness can be. They know what those alpha particles are doing to their bodies. They know what Strontium and Cesium can do. Now, I don't know that this happened but any kind of *humane* employer would have said "we can't tell you to stay, so we're going to ask for volunteers". I suspect that everyone on site is there because they volunteered. Unless you are a cop, a firefighter or in the military your employer generally isn't going to ask you to do something that you *know* could get you killed.

The operators on site are heroes. We may not think of them as square-jawed action-figures, but right now everyone of them is being as much a hero as any firefighter.

Cheers
Aj

I think you might about those really on "the fronts lines" of this are in volunteer status and for me, it is not a stretch to attach "hero" to them.

There are quite a few heros in fields of science - those that developed life saving medicines and surgical procedures would stand out for me. Many others, too.

[Linus]

Article similar to what AJ said but with picture (for those of us who are visually inclined)

http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/_news...lear-questions

[Camo Eagle]

Like the OP stated, Im not a Nuclear Eng. either. However, Ive taught Military & Civilian NBC (Nuc, Bio, Chem) threat, & response for yrs., and an qual in a few medical specialties. I hope I can add a few helpful items.

According to Mil response plan mtgs., (NOT Classified info), using current prevailing winds, currents, directions, and time of yr, it would take approx 3 days for a med/lg radiation release to reach the west coast. The above has been calculated showing the greatest concentration would be to N CA, OR, WA, and Alaska. This can change if the above factors change, and is recalculated daily.

Sadly, there is little you can do to plan as an individual. Not many people can go under ground, live behind concrete, or with no out side air vent source.

The main preventative for this kind of a radiological event is to take Potassium Iodide Pills. You can get these w/o a prescription.
In the event that the radiation reaches the US, affected areas will tap the Nat'l Stockpile of response drugs, and the areas will most likely be distributing the pills.

It offers some protection but not 100%, and is dependent on the dose you rec. The thyroid absorbs most of the radiation then becomes cancerous. The KI works by protecting the thyroid gland.


Curent studies on this crisis show that lg amts reaching US is unlikely at this time. Over the next 10 yrs there will likely be an increase in cancer in the affected states.


www.bt.cdc.gov/radiation/ki.asp

www.nrc.gov

[Medusa]

Jack and I ordered a huge bottle of Potassium Iodide pills about 2 years ago (their expiration date is 2019) because we're crazy paranoid survivalists/preppers and think the end of the world will happen one day.

Just fyi: I looked online yesterday at multiple sites that normally carry these pills and almost all of them were out of stock. Not suprisring but rather alarming since I suspect there will be a large number of people trying to get these pills.

For those of you in the PNW and other areas who are so inclined to look for these pills, Source Naturals (an herbal supplement brand) makes these as well and you might be able to find them at random nutrition shops.

Now, would it do anything at all to cover windows/doors and vents with any material if radiation does start making its way across the ocean? Sheets of plastic? Wood? Sheet metal?

Jack is looking for a diagram right now that shows a visual of what insulates and how much against radiation. Will post in a bit.

[Medusa]

These are some figures that talk about how much of a material you would need to insulate against radiation in case of a nuclear attack. Not sure if this is the same type of radiation as would leak from the reactors (and probably not because a blast is much more aggressive than a leak)

This is for a blast, and not a leak. I think that radiation carried on a jet stream would probably act much differently than a blast (a blast acting with force versus carried radiation floating on the wind)

But just to give an idea:

Steel: 21 cm (0.7 feet)
Rock: 70-100 cm (2-3 ft)
Concrete: 66 cm (2.2 ft)
Wood: 2.6 m (8.8 ft)
Soil: 1 m (3.3 ft)
Ice: 2 m (6.6 ft)
Snow: 6 m (20-22 ft)

[Medusa]

Levels of radiation rise in Tokyo and Vicinity:

http://e.nikkei.com/e/fr/tnks/Nni20110315D15JF919.htm

[Dude]

proper dosage?

it seems everything I read says something different.


the shit is selling out quite quickly
and I'd like to have some spare stuff to hook folks up on.
(worried fn hoarder)

plus my dog and duck ? 1/4 tabs was all I could find on dosage
for kids but for how long?

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by Dude

proper dosage?

it seems everything I read says something different.


the shit is selling out quite quickly
and I'd like to have some spare stuff to hook folks up on.
(worried fn hoarder)

plus my dog and duck ? 1/4 tabs was all I could find on dosage
for kids but for how long?

Dude - The tabs we have are 85mg each which yield 50mg of elemental iodine.
Adult dosage is 2 tablets minimum daily dose for 3-14 days as directed by authorites (which means to me that I take them for a few days longer)

We bought enough to be able to dose our dog as well. Gracie's health is important to me so we have actually stockpiled enough food and water for her in our regular hoard of stuff for ourselves. Some people would resort to eating their pets if there was no food around, I'm not one of them.

I'm reading up on the dosages and have yet to find a website that has availability of either Potassium iodide or Potassium iodate.

AJ can probably tell us the molecular difference in the two.

From what I have read, potassoum iodate is an acceptable alternative to Potassium iodide and has a longer shelf life.

[Linus]

For those looking I did notice that this site still has some: http://www.thereadystore.com/emergen...ection-tablets

I'm contemplating getting a couple of boxes, especially since they are sale. And I also want to get an emergency preparedness kit.

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by Linus

For those looking I did notice that this site still has some: http://www.thereadystore.com/emergen...ection-tablets

I'm contemplating getting a couple of boxes, especially since they are sale. And I also want to get an emergency preparedness kit.

Good find!! This wasnt on my list of sites that I regularly check - Adding it now!

[Linus]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Good find!! This wasnt on my list of sites that I regularly check - Adding it now!

I went to check Amazon and I noticed something: a few places have upped the price on these things -- $100-240 per pack (14 tablets)!

Sigh.

[Medusa]

I noticed that too, bubz. Looks like there are several sellers on eBay who have jacked their prices way up and there was actually one seller that was asking over $1000 for a case.

We paid $20 for a bottle of 200 tablets 2 years ago; the same bottle right now is $39 IF you want to wait 6 weeks to receive it.

They just had another 6.1 aftershock too.

[Linus]

I think I'm going to try and see if we can get some at local stores today..

[Julie]

Question for those of us allergic to Iodine. (Anaphylactic Shock)

Is Iodide the same component as Iodine. I am not talking about the Iodine they put on your body during surgery.

The Iodine they inject you with during Nuclear Medicine Testing.

My work is in Japan and I know I am going to be going... Not sure when.

[Dude]

http://www.vitanherbs.com

10.95 for 120

express delivery? hell to the yes

[wolfbittenpoet]

Originally Posted by InfiniteFemme

Question for those of us allergic to Iodine. (Anaphylactic Shock)

Is Iodide the same component as Iodine. I am not talking about the Iodine they put on your body during surgery.

The Iodine they inject you with during Nuclear Medicine Testing.

My work is in Japan and I know I am going to be going... Not sure when.

Check with doc or CDC. I am sure if your work is a necessary thing they will have some solution.