The Price of Necessity

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by Waldo

See this makes perfect sense to me. Again, it's all in what is valuable to me. I used to loathe doing laundry because I had to go to the laundry to do it. So I got in the habit of keeping 20+ pair. Same with socks. To me my time is more valuable. It made more sense to me to save up X number of pair and do them all at once than having to go do laundry just because I needed knickers.

Haha! That's how I ended up with so many pairs of underware! The building I live in only has one washer and drier, and you're not allowed to do laundry after 10pm - so it's like a big battle to get the machines. PLUS a few of the units have families with young children living in them - and apparently children create a lot of laundry. There are some people in the building who do laundry Every Fucking Day.

After a couple of times of having to handwash and blowdry my knickers just so I could go to work (because someone else was hogging the machines) I lost my mind and bought a tonne of underware.

[Waldo]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Not having a car is a pretty big lifestyle choice. When I first got rid of the car (forever ago!) I was living a 2 hour bus commute from work - not such a great idea. But since then I've gotten smarter and have intentionally chosen apartments that are within reasonable distance of work, a grocery store, on the bus route, etc.

There's been a lot of discussion lately, and I've done a bit of research myself as well, on the "demise of suburbia". Much talk about how the tide is finally turning now that people are losing their homes they are realizing that it wasn't their home that was the problem. It was their transportation costs.

I don't remember what show it was but the other day I watched a special about retrofitting shopping malls and other big box stores in suburban areas and they were talking to a few people who work in Manhattan but chose to buy a home in eastern Pennsylvanian because it was "more affordable". What they hadn't considered was the fact that they would turn around and spend *more* on transportation than they were spending on their mortgage. And their quality of life with all that driving? In the toilet.

I feel strongly, and hope fervently that I'm right, that the big trend in the next twenty years is a new urbanism to go hand in hand with a better understanding of the importance of living and working in close proximity.

[Waldo]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

I agree with you wholeheartedly that it's a tired stereotype and all around assumption to associated cock solely with male/masculinity.

I also agree with the way you've determined necessity vs. want.

But I disagree that anyone can tell me my cock isn't a necessity, as if it were only something purchased at a store, as if it were only some appendage who's sole purpose is sex. My cock isn't store bought, but it's existence is fundamental to mine. One might just as well as if breasts are a necessity (to other than nursing mothers).

I'm tired, and not entirely certain this is coming across as I wish it, but there it is. Nor did I mean to turn this into a conversation about dick, but I really wanted to address that little nugget.

I hear you. I don't agree, but I hear you. I imagine there are more than a few people who feel the same.

My question to you is: if you couldn't have your cock would you cease being able to live? Water, food, shelter, oxygen... does it fall into that category for you?

I'm not trying to say it isn't important, please understand. I'm merely trying to clarify the hard line that I look at necessity with. I live with plenty of things that are not at all a necessity and there are a few of those I really wouldn't want to be without. But I could. That's all.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by Waldo

There's been a lot of discussion lately, and I've done a bit of research myself as well, on the "demise of suburbia". Much talk about how the tide is finally turning now that people are losing their homes they are realizing that it wasn't their home that was the problem. It was their transportation costs.

I don't remember what show it was but the other day I watched a special about retrofitting shopping malls and other big box stores in suburban areas and they were talking to a few people who work in Manhattan but chose to buy a home in eastern Pennsylvanian because it was "more affordable". What they hadn't considered was the fact that they would turn around and spend *more* on transportation than they were spending on their mortgage. And their quality of life with all that driving? In the toilet.

I feel strongly, and hope fervently that I'm right, that the big trend in the next twenty years is a new urbanism to go hand in hand with a better understanding of the importance of living and working in close proximity.

I hope you are right.

I read a study years ago about how people who live in the suburbs are in general less "happy" than people who live in the city. They also die younger.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by Waldo

I hear you. I don't agree, but I hear you. I imagine there are more than a few people who feel the same.

My question to you is: if you couldn't have your cock would you cease being able to live? Water, food, shelter, oxygen... does it fall into that category for you?

I'm not trying to say it isn't important, please understand. I'm merely trying to clarify the hard line that I look at necessity with. I live with plenty of things that are not at all a necessity and there are a few of those I really wouldn't want to be without. But I could. That's all.

I get where you're coming from, but also, from that perspective, most of this thread would be irrelevant. I believe it opened with toilet paper, am I right? I wouldn't die without that, either.

As I see it, it's a quality of life issue. After oxygen, water, food, shelter, not having shit on your hand is fairly high up there on some basic standard of quality of life. As would having one pair of good shoes, as opposed to say, 40, which is getting into the luxury standard for quality of life. The eunuch has made a choice to be cockless (or had it made for him), but still he lives. A man having his dick removed non-consensually might suffer a diminished quality of life, on a very basic level.

But then, "quality of life" is not the title of the thread.

[Waldo]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

I get where you're coming from, but also, from that perspective, most of this thread would be irrelevant. I believe it opened with toilet paper, am I right? I wouldn't die without that, either.

As I see it, it's a quality of life issue. After oxygen, water, food, shelter, not having shit on your hand is fairly high up there on some basic standard of quality of life. As would having one pair of good shoes, as opposed to say, 40, which is getting into the luxury standard for quality of life. The eunuch has made a choice to be cockless (or had it made for him), but still he lives. A man having his dick removed non-consensually might suffer a diminished quality of life, on a very basic level.

But then, "quality of life" is not the title of the thread.

Agreed on all fronts.

Says the big fan of not having shit on her hands.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

I get where you're coming from, but also, from that perspective, most of this thread would be irrelevant. I believe it opened with toilet paper, am I right? I wouldn't die without that, either.

As I see it, it's a quality of life issue. After oxygen, water, food, shelter, not having shit on your hand is fairly high up there on some basic standard of quality of life.

But, you know. Not having shit on your hand -can- be a life or death situation. There are bacteria present in your bowels that can make you ill or even kill you if they end up in your stomach.

I'm not even being difficult. I am completely serious.

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by Waldo

There's been a lot of discussion lately, and I've done a bit of research myself as well, on the "demise of suburbia". Much talk about how the tide is finally turning now that people are losing their homes they are realizing that it wasn't their home that was the problem. It was their transportation costs.

I don't remember what show it was but the other day I watched a special about retrofitting shopping malls and other big box stores in suburban areas and they were talking to a few people who work in Manhattan but chose to buy a home in eastern Pennsylvanian because it was "more affordable". What they hadn't considered was the fact that they would turn around and spend *more* on transportation than they were spending on their mortgage. And their quality of life with all that driving? In the toilet.

I feel strongly, and hope fervently that I'm right, that the big trend in the next twenty years is a new urbanism to go hand in hand with a better understanding of the importance of living and working in close proximity.

I live in a part of NYC where public transportation is difficult and very time consuming. But two wheels and an engine make it so easy to bungee my tools on the back and ride to the far flung studios where I work. I ride my bicycle when it's feasible, but mostly I commute via motorcycle. My biggest, least fuel efficient bike gets 43 mpg. The rest of them get 50 mpg or better. If I wanted to get even better mileage I could go shopping today and come home with a scooter that gets 123 mpg! And then there's the world of electric scooters which cost less than a dollar a day in electricity to operate. What is more, up to seven two wheeled vehicles can park in a spot normally taken by one car. A car will take up the space occupied by up to four two wheeled vehicles in city traffic, and that doesn't include lanesplitting.

Cities in Europe are way ahead of us here in the U.S. when it comes to encouraging fuel efficient, congestion reducing two-wheeled motorized transportation. London has notably good policies. Sydney, Paris, and countless other European cities provide great facilities for us. Toronto, Vancouver and Austin Tx give free parking at Muni-Meters. San Francisco has a very well structured system. Unfortunately, we are subtly and overtly discouraged from riding motorcycle and scooters here in NYC.

Check out www.nymstf.org

[Waldo]

Originally Posted by betenoire

But, you know. Not having shit on your hand -can- be a life or death situation. There are bacteria present in your bowels that can make you ill or even kill you if they end up in your stomach.

I'm not even being difficult. I am completely serious.

Actually. And don't even go there with me... you know where the custom of shaking with our right hand stems from, yes?

Just sayin'.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by betenoire

But, you know. Not having shit on your hand -can- be a life or death situation. There are bacteria present in your bowels that can make you ill or even kill you if they end up in your stomach.

I'm not even being difficult. I am completely serious.

I know you are, I paused over that one as I wrote it and decided to leave it. I considered that humans/humanoids didn't have toilet paper for a long ass time (I had to) and survived. Albeit some might have died from bacterial illness, but it could well be argued the planet was a healthier place with fewer humans, and the ultimate necessity is this planet, healthy.

[Waldo]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

I live in a part of NYC where public transportation is difficult and very time consuming. But two wheels and an engine make it so easy to bungee my tools on the back and ride to the far flung studios where I work. I ride my bicycle when it's feasible, but mostly I commute via motorcycle. My biggest, least fuel efficient bike gets 43 mpg. The rest of them get 50 mpg or better. If I wanted to get even better mileage I could go shopping today and come home with a scooter that gets 123 mpg! And then there's the world of electric scooters which cost less than a dollar a day in electricity to operate. What is more, up to seven two wheeled vehicles can park in a spot normally taken by one car. A car will take up the space occupied by up to four two wheeled vehicles in city traffic, and that doesn't include lanesplitting.

Cities in Europe are way ahead of us here in the U.S. when it comes to encouraging fuel efficient, congestion reducing two-wheeled motorized transportation. London has notably good policies. Sydney, Paris, and countless other European cities provide great facilities for us. Toronto, Vancouver and Austin Tx give free parking at Muni-Meters. San Francisco has a very well structured system. Unfortunately, we are subtly and overtly discouraged from riding motorcycle and scooters here in NYC.

Check out www.nymstf.org

Denver is very two wheel friendly as well. Even though there have been some high profile accidents of late we're home to the BCycle program. It's doing quite well. I see people on them all the time and it makes me smile each time.

In many places in Albuquerque the parking spots for scooters and motorcycles are closest to the entry.

I have it too easy though. Working from my home means I don't have to worry about transportation at all until I have to go on the road. I, like you, try to do my part because I have such a big carbon foot print due to my travel. 3x or more a month on a plane. Often times long hauls.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

My biggest, least fuel efficient bike gets 43 mpg. The rest of them get 50 mpg or better. If I wanted to get even better mileage I could go shopping today and come home with a scooter that gets 123 mpg!

Nice! I was gonna mention scooters and motorcycles and forgot.

I'm actually planning to get a scooter (the Honda Jazz, specifically - because I like the way it looks and I trust Honda) eventually.

I can't have one where I live now, because it'll get stolen. No, really. It -will- get stolen. If I ever live in an apartment with an elevator so I can store the scooter inside (I live on the 3rd floor and I just can't see carrying it up 3 flights of stairs) it's SO on.

Originally Posted by Waldo

Actually. And don't even go there with me... you know where the custom of shaking with our right hand stems from, yes?

Just sayin'.

Yes.

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

I know you are, I paused over that one as I wrote it and decided to leave it. I considered that humans/humanoids didn't have toilet paper for a long ass time (I had to) and survived. Albeit some might have died from bacterial illness, but it could well be argued the planet was a healthier place with fewer humans, and the ultimate necessity is this planet, healthy.

NO we will all die! (I am obsessed with poop, just ask Nick. You don't want to know how many times a day I wash my hands. Make that "how many times an hour I wash my hands".)

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by Waldo

Finally (oops, guess it wasn't just two things after all, was it?) - years ago I dated a woman who'd lived for a time in Africa doing peace corp work. At the time I had a real shoe thing. I bought shoes ALL THE TIME. I probably had going on 40 pair or so. She had three pair. A pair of sneakers, a pair of Chaco sandals and a pair of boots. It really bothered her that I had so many shoes. She asked why and I said "well, you need shoes". To which she answered... "Do you?. There are countless people the world over who not only don't have shoes and they get along just fine. And the shoes that we consider a necessity are really just luxury. We need something to protect our feet, sure - but could we not just strap some rubber to our feet and call it good?"

Needless to say, that gave me much to think about. I live an extremely comfortable life. I want for very little. But the best part about that is that it's not because I have every toy under the sun, it's because I do not desire every toy under the sun.

One day I decide to finally go through lots and lots of boxes I've been storing and dragging around the country. I remodeled a 110 year old Victorian home I bought in the Adirondacks. Stuff got packed and stayed that way thru that project, my sanctuary hidden in the florida everglades and finally to my farm here in Va. These boxes revealed a long journey and how I evolved and changed over that 15 year span.

You think you have shoes??? lol- omg did I have shoes and not just any shoes. Shoes and boots I (or someone) paid way to much money for. Shoes I wore once or twice. Unpractical 6 inch stilettos, platforms, etc. I wouldnt dare attempt today. Clothes- 400.00 suits, 600.00 dresses, belts, accessories. I looked at all this "stuff" as I sat on the floor in my pull up walmart shorts and over sized men's V neck t-shirt. Even on a farm I rarely wear shoes and when I do its flip flops, crocs or cowboy boots. I couldnt believe how much I'd changed. There was a time when I wouldnt go out of the house without makeup and heels.

So many other things became a priority and lets face it, 500.00 today is a lot harder to come by then it was at the start of the internet boom. Although there are some things I miss I know the quality of my life has changed along with my priorities. Here's the interesting thing tho... if I could do it all over again I would be her. I regret it took so long to listen to my heart and follow my real dreams. I spent too much time being afraid to take that leap and although quite the challenge, it has been an incredible journey.

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by betenoire

I hope you are right.

I read a study years ago about how people who live in the suburbs are in general less "happy" than people who live in the city. They also die younger.

That study I'd have to read to believe that but maybe its the burbs and not rural living. I couldnt live in the suburbs or city anymore. City living is definitely a personal lifestyle choice as well as rural country living.

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Not having a car is a pretty big lifestyle choice. When I first got rid of the car (forever ago!) I was living a 2 hour bus commute from work - not such a great idea. But since then I've gotten smarter and have intentionally chosen apartments that are within reasonable distance of work, a grocery store, on the bus route, etc.

Even in the town where I now live (which is a far cry from Toronto, I tell you) where the bus stops running at 11 Monday-Friday and 6 on Saturdays and Sundays I'm doing more than fine. The money I save each month by not owning a vehicle can certainly afford me the luxury of taking a taxi once or twice a month if I'm going to be out real late and in an area of town that I can't walk home from.

I think if you live in the city or you can go without or share a car it's a very smart move. I personally know people that share a car but like Waldo and myself work at home so it's not a huge issue.

Could I go without my big ass 250 Cargo Van living out here on the farm? Maybe I could if I set myself up right. I'd have to rely on delivery for feed for animals. The vet makes house calls. I could grow quite a bit of produce. Yeah if I had to I could. But since my van is a write off for my farm I considered it a cost of overhead.

I've done a lot of things in my life and this whole rural downsizing luxury has been quite a challenge for me. My next step, if I can get up the courage is to start moving towards full sustainability or as close as one could get. I often think about the things I MUST have and what I could do without to slip fully into that transition. Internet and cell phone would be hardest for me. Toilet paper I could do without because I have. When I'm in the woods I try not to bring it. I fill a bottle of water wash and dry. In fact I might do that more here. Not because of the savings but to start using less paper and now that I think of it I'll be much cleaner!

[christie]

Originally Posted by Sachita

You think you have shoes??? lol- omg did I have shoes and not just any shoes. Shoes and boots I (or someone) paid way to much money for. Shoes I wore once or twice. Unpractical 6 inch stilettos, platforms, etc. I wouldnt dare attempt today. Clothes- 400.00 suits, 600.00 dresses, belts, accessories.

Have you been peeking in my closet????

Seriously, I get what you are saying. I am certainly guilty of being excessive. I think a good deal of this comes from the struggles of being a 20something single mother where every penny had to be a "necessity" purchase - food, basic clothing, shelter and medical.

At this point in my career (and at my income level), we probably DO spend more on "stuff" than at any other time in our lives, combined. But, for me, its about making life easier. I refuse to do the mental self flagellation over things I want. I feel that I deserve it. I feel that Jess deserves it. We've both struggled and I don't think there is a reason for us to do with less now because we don't have to.

Could we live with less? Certainly. Are there times when we do? Yep.

The 25 yr+ dishwasher exploded all over the kitchen floor about a month ago. We had our handyfella haul it away. We haven't rushed to purchase another because when we do, I am likely to replace the existing range with a mondo matching mack-daddy gas range and new fridge. There is nothing wrong with the range or fridge other than we both prefer cooking with gas and we both think the mammoth older side-by-side is just too big and not practical for us.

Until we come to the "justification" part of the mental purchase process, we will continue to be well acquainted with the dishpan and dish drainer. Where's good ole Madge and her Palmolive???

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by christie0918

I think that also brings about necessity vs. luxury as being very subjective. What I might deem a luxury might be quite necessary for someone else.

I do like the idea of the thread - I think it will be interesting to see the different perspectives.

Here's one for you - Swiffer. To me, a necessity. To someone else, it might seem a luxury and a waste. I have pointed out to someone specifically that if they would like to bring that dust rag and furniture polish over and have at it, I certainly wouldn't stop them!

lol- OMG I was addicted to swiffer floor thingy's. I went thru a ton of vacuum cleaners with all this damn dogs. I bought this Eureka Pet Lover vacuum and have been preaching about it like crazy. Theres a recent post on dancingcreekfarm.com This is turning into a NECESSITY for sure! I can hold it in my hand, put whatever nozzle I'm using and start sucking away. Trust me when I tell you that you'll replace Swiffer even for dusting. This thing rocks. Nothing I've ever used sucks up pet hair like this. C the girl that cleans my house, which you also know, loves it too and uses it everywhere.

[RockOn]

I am feeling somewhat guilty this morning ...

I bought $18.00 and some change worth of ice cream and yogurt for my dog and I yesterday afternoon at WalMart. I was so hot, irritable and sweaty by the time I made it to WalMart. Plus, I hate running out. It is a bitch to have to wade out into this liquid steam (humidity) and make a special ice cream run on a mid-week evening. Good thing I only bought one small container of the no fat kind - thought I would try it. Trust me, it is not workable.

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by christie0918

Have you been peeking in my closet????

Seriously, I get what you are saying. I am certainly guilty of being excessive. I think a good deal of this comes from the struggles of being a 20something single mother where every penny had to be a "necessity" purchase - food, basic clothing, shelter and medical.

At this point in my career (and at my income level), we probably DO spend more on "stuff" than at any other time in our lives, combined. But, for me, its about making life easier. I refuse to do the mental self flagellation over things I want. I feel that I deserve it. I feel that Jess deserves it. We've both struggled and I don't think there is a reason for us to do with less now because we don't have to.

Could we live with less? Certainly. Are there times when we do? Yep.

The 25 yr+ dishwasher exploded all over the kitchen floor about a month ago. We had our handyfella haul it away. We haven't rushed to purchase another because when we do, I am likely to replace the existing range with a mondo matching mack-daddy gas range and new fridge. There is nothing wrong with the range or fridge other than we both prefer cooking with gas and we both think the mammoth older side-by-side is just too big and not practical for us.

Until we come to the "justification" part of the mental purchase process, we will continue to be well acquainted with the dishpan and dish drainer. Where's good ole Madge and her Palmolive???

I definitely now what you mean. Being raised poor and from the ghetto I thought I was a billionaire when I bought my first car. It was a hard ass climb and no one gave me nothing. I raised my son alone and when I start making big money I spoiled myself like crazy. Things are just different now for me. Don't think I didnt keep a "few" things. (wink) I kept a few push up lace bra's, matching panties, stockings and I don't wear bra and panties. (evil grin) Doesnt mean I won't put 'em on for the right person. I also kept a few shoes and bags. I do spoil myself and plan on getting away more. Is a day at the spa necessity? No but every now and then I think maybe. If it brings me joy and takes away stress its part of my health plan, however its highly unlikely you'll find me shopping again for $300.00 shoes.

[Rockinonahigh]

Shoes and clothes...I have one pair of tennis shoes,1 pair of dress shoes,2 pair of work shoes and one pair of lace up motorcycle boots over the years I have bought four suit coats and have many mix and match slacke/shirts/ties.Mostly I wear blue jeans so I have several pair from faded oldies to a coupla of new pair I havent worn.I gess the thing I have in abundance is chef uniforms from the basic one to fancy ones when I need them.Nearly everything I buy is qulity cause it will last a long time but I do watch for sales to save money.I drive a ten yro cadi wich is in great shape.Now I live not far from most places I go to,tho a fue places I have to go across town for.What I miss is the country liveing I had..quieter and way less stressfull,where I now live is a nice place and has lots of pluses at times I feel hemed in..when I bought this place it was cause I worked in town and driveing an hour both ways was really expensive with at the time gas at near 3.50 a galon with me at the time driveing a huge suv.The suv was nessary at the time but has gone to better parking lots in the scrap yard.
I have lived with way less and I mean way less than I have now.haveing a fue luxeries is a big plus to me that I doint squander by over use or being careles.One of the bigges lessons in life I learned was how little I could have to eek out exsitance...it was a hard one to learn.