Lesbian Couple "Looks into Transgender" as a Loophole to Get Married

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by MandaGlamour

Where I agree with many points listed, I can't understand how one persons actions speak for a entire community. People have their own thoughts and opinions, two people can walk the same path but have different experiences.


The problem is this couple was on Oprah, therefor has some pop culture impressions that can be long lasting on those who blindly listen/watch tv shows without question (remember when Oprah went off about beef and got sued?) which happens more than we'd like to think. Does Chaz Bono speak for every transgender individual? Of coarse not. But many will view one famous persons journey as a format for many others. Being transgender isn't a choice, I don't know anyone who ever felt like transitioning wasn't saving their life.

I don't think we should assume that people who transition are "at the end of their rope", so to speak. That can be true in some cases, but not all.

I am considering taking hormones to masculinize. It isn't a matter of life and death for me.

[GraffitiBoi]

Originally Posted by vagina

Personally, my feeling is that this perfectly describes the transgender community or movement.

I'm not sure if you are referring to the Oprah segment or to this discussion in general. I do know, as a transgender person, that the story on Oprah does not define me, my trans friends, our community, or our trans movement in which we fight endlessly for equal rights and acceptance.

*****

I do believe that the Oprah show portrayed that couple's situation in an over-simplified manner and probably left a lot of material on the cutting room floor. Regardless of how or why this couple came to their decision, I'm sure it was not done lightly or without a lot of thought and discussion on the pros and cons. No matter the reason for transition, it is a long process that cannot be decided in one fleeting moment, no matter who you are.

Do I think the Oprah story and that couple's situation casts a favorable light on transition and trans* people? No. But that is due to my own personal opinions and beliefs. No matter my thoughts and feelings, that was their issue and their decision to make, and it is none of my business to judge or care why. They did what they thought they needed to do. They aren't hurting me or interfering in my life.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by dykeumentary

Just a friendly reminder, because I know that we all want to be good people here-

Please lets not use expressions like "having a screw loose" or "ordering a psych consult" when we mean to say that we don't agree/understand someone's decision.
The mental health industrial complex has been used as a weapon against GLBT and gender-noncomforming people for years. The stigma of "being crazy" also keeps people who need mental health care from getting it.

Thanks! Now back to lively debate!

Originally Posted by dykeumentary

I'm speaking as a person who had an involuntary inpatient hospitalization to treat what the doctors saw as gender issues, I'm speaking as a niece of a man who was forced to undergo shock therapy treatments to "cure" his homosexuality, I'm speaking as a friend of a 25 year-old lesbian who killed herself when she need needed help, but was too embarassed to get it.

Maybe I should have just saiid "holy shit- that's offensive!" but I tried to be nice.
Is the better response to flag a post? I don't know.

.

Originally Posted by aishah

(also thanks dykeumentary for putting words to the ableism of casual comments about people's mental health states. it upset me too.)

I apologize if my words genuinely offended anyone.

However.....

I say this as someone who's mother suffered from paranoid schizophrenia for decades and did things like drag me out of grade school to hitchhike halfway across the country to go meet the president, which put us both in traumatic and dangerous situations and I wound up being held back due to the amount of time I was kept out of school. I've personally dealt with seasonal depression as well.

I think it's safe to say that most people have been touched by mental health issues in one form or another and some of us, like Anya and Dapper, actually work in the profession.

That said, this offended me.

Just a friendly reminder, because I know that we all want to be good people here-

You have no idea what I want and to insinuate that I'm a bad person because I said 'has a screw loose' feels like a shaming attempt.

Sorry.

I have no shame.

Fail.

I stand by my previous post. I certainly admit I could have used different verbiage, though.

[aishah]

forgive me if i misunderstood what anyone meant by those comments. i certainly don't think anyone is a bad person and i don't want to shame anyone into talking a certain way. just was expressing my own gratitude at the questioning of this very common reaction to attribute things we don't like/agree with to mental illness. i personally find this language to be ableist and upsetting. there are other ways of expressing disbelief, frustration, shock, lack of ability to comprehend why someone would do this, etc. than to attribute it to mental illness. it does a disservice to people with actual mental health issues and it does a disservice to the people you're talking about when we frankly don't know whether or not they have mental health issues.

edited/tl;dr -- people see things they think are bad or wrong. when people label those things as "crazy," it bothers me similarly to how it bothers me when people label bad or wrong or ridiculous or stupid or whatever things as "gay" or anything else. because i'm crazy and i resent the association of mental health with bad/wrong/ridiculous, as it perpetuates stigma. it also just doesn't make sense to me, as in it doesn't seem to be a relevant descriptor of the situation.

[Girl_On_Fire]

Originally Posted by GraffitiBoi

I'm not sure if you are referring to the Oprah segment or to this discussion in general. I do know, as a transgender person, that the story on Oprah does not define me, my trans friends, our community, or our trans movement in which we fight endlessly for equal rights and acceptance.

*****

I do believe that the Oprah show portrayed that couple's situation in an over-simplified manner and probably left a lot of material on the cutting room floor. Regardless of how or why this couple came to their decision, I'm sure it was not done lightly or without a lot of thought and discussion on the pros and cons. No matter the reason for transition, it is a long process that cannot be decided in one fleeting moment, no matter who you are.

Do I think the Oprah story and that couple's situation casts a favorable light on transition and trans* people? No. But that is due to my own personal opinions and beliefs. No matter my thoughts and feelings, that was their issue and their decision to make, and it is none of my business to judge or care why. They did what they thought they needed to do. They aren't hurting me or interfering in my life.

I think that's half the problem with media in general. The original story and all its nuances gets condensed into a 30-second to 3-minute sound byte that wraps up the entire story (according to broadcasting company) and leaves a lot of people shaking their heads in confusion, or worse, getting the wrong idea and grabbing their pitchforks.

I didn't mean to grab mine but it wasn't the couple I was going after. For me, it was the way their story was represented. It was the wording and seeming-suggestion that it's just so easy to transition and everybody who identifies as queer should do it if they want to legally marry.

That might not have been their intention at all. Nonetheless, it caused a visceral reaction.

[imperfect_cupcake]

That's the thing. The media. If anyone has ever been covered by the media they chop it up and re-gurge for easy digestion. I have had friends who have had their stories covered by The Medja and they completely misrepresented them. Utterly. Sex worker mates trying to be public with pro-sexworker stories get completely mangled. A friend of mine decided to help pay for couples therapy with her husband by volunteering herself to be covered in a story and the media blitz around certain type of couples therapy pretty much broke them up for four months because of the stress of mis representation. You can be interviewed in a really positive way and then have 85% on the editing room floor and the finished product makes you look like a complete cheese todger.

I wouldn't trust an Oprah show for it's sound journalism! That's bonkers.

It's the media circus and depiction I think is the wank heads in this story.

I just googled "marriage transgender loophole" in google. It seems the media likes to call it this from 2010-2014, just on the first page of searching.

[candy_coated_bitch]

Heh. I was thinking since last night that I wanted to come in here and pretty much say what hb did.

I've read all the posts in the thread and I've been thinking about this a bit, and realized how odd it was starting to seem to me that people were feeling so strongly, and had such strong opinions based on very little information whatsoever. Granted, I did not do an exhaustive search of the internet--but a cursory search gleaned very little information about Jacki and Christine. Yes, the media.

Oprah is not a reliable source. Two or three paragraphs online is not a reliable source. Three minutes of a snipped video online is not a reliable source. Even one comment can be taken out of context and spun out in an article or edited interview. You know how teachers tell you not to use Wikipedia as a source? Well, don't treat three minutes of video from Oprah and a couple paragraphs from Huff Post's "Gay Voices" as any sort of ACTUAL information.

What do we really know about this couple? Christine went on Oprah to talk about her coming out experience and discovering her husband and was also gay. And that the Oprah show did a follow up with Christine and they discovered she was in a relationship with someone named Jacki, who got some sort of top surgery (it keeps being called a double mastectomy) so they could get married.

That's all we know. We don't know anything about Jacki's background or her feelings about gender, or if there were deeper motivations behind this than getting married--though that can feel pretty fucking deep to some people. Maybe there were, maybe there weren't.

Can you imagine if Oprah came knocking on your door again and discovered that you were a lesbian married to someone who was legally male, but kinda still identified as female anyways? Maybe they are just trying to control as much of their own story as they can.

WHO THE HELL KNOWS?

That's my point. The discussion is interesting and I like hearing differing points of view--BUT, I can't see getting that mad about it. I don't see how one person's choice invalidates trans* experience. What does that even mean? Phrases like "trans* experience"? That covers a lot of territory. And I'd also like to think that two people doing something, even if it turned about to be disingenuous, don't have enough real power to affect the trans* movement at all. Like, seriously if two queers that went on Oprah and had a couple tiny articles written about them can set us back--well then trans* activists and their allies aren't doing a very good job!

This slightly reminds me of the time that FTM got pregnant (who also went on Oprah, oddly enough, though I don't remember his name) and the community was in fucking UPROAR about it. This isn't quite the same uproar--but there was no trans* apocalypse after that. The sky didn't fall. As far as I can tell we've still come a long way in the ten or more years since that happened. His fifteen minutes of fame are over and those of us who care about trans* issues are still fighting the good fight.

It mystifies me sometimes how individual people's PERSONAL choices can come to represent so much just because we may disagree with them, or find them distasteful, or their choices scare us. Nobody I know outside of this bfp circle even KNOWS who these people are. I doubt they will have much actual influence on anything.

[BullDog]

Christine actually responds quite a bit in the comments in the Huffington Post article. It gave me a little more insight into their story, but yes we still know very little.


James McInnis:
Kimberly Player "Great" seems a little strong; I'm completely neutral about them getting married, which means I don't care.

Christine: James McInnis Thanks! We care about having equal rights.



Convience? You mean not being dragged out of women's restrooms anymore or stared rudely at public pools and laughed at because she looked like a man in a bikini. Do you want to be the type of person that is judgmental and self righteous?


I'm sorry you feel that way Maureen. Jacki actually opted to have reconstruction of her chest and it was really well done. I'm terribly sorry if we offend you. That was never our intention.


Thank you. You're very kind. xxxooo It wasn't easy talking about my personal life on TV...Harpo has been calling every 6-9 months checking up on me for 8 years. I know not everyone is going to be kind like you when I go into these things but I want you to know I really appreciate it Mignonne. xxoo

[candy_coated_bitch]

I usually never even THINK to read the comments on articles because they are usually a hot mess LOL. Though ironically in this case I would probably trust the words straight out of her mouth more than the article itself. Thanks!

[dykeumentary]

Originally Posted by Gemme

You have no idea what I want and to insinuate that I'm a bad person because I said 'has a screw loose' feels like a shaming attempt.

Sorry.

I have no shame.

Fail.

GEMME by quoting what I wrote so completely, your post feels like you are being negative to me specifically. I wasn't being specifically negative to you.

I posted what I did because I know that many people read what's here. I posted what I did because it was an opportunity to talk about how people who don't even intend to be hurtful get pulled into mental health oppression.

It was relevant to this thread not only because we have a responsibility to other BFP posters to interrupt hurtful language, but also because Oprah probably didn't mean to be hurtful to anybody, yet (as you pointed out) many trans people are/were/could be harmed by this segment on her show. This is a thread about how out actions impact others.

So since you posted to me personally, here is my personal response back to you:

You wrote about your experience with your mom and I feel genuine compassion for you, that must have been so difficult.
Sadly though, our experiences of being hurt by someone with mental health issues does not give you or anyone permission to say things like "there's a screw loose" -- that's a bad way to say you don't agree. If you are talking about somieone's mental condition, and if you ARE a psychiatrist, you wouldn't have permission to talk about their condition here anyway.
An experience of being hurt by someone with a broken leg doesn't give you permission to say "that's so lame." An experience of being hurt by someone with cognitive delays doesn't give you permission to say "that's so retarded." An experience of being treated badly by a poor person doesn't give you permission to say "That's ghetto" The list goes on.

It's clear from your total number of posts that you care about this site. I don't know you, nor do I find sport in shaming anyone.
You and I both feel the responsibility to talk about everyday oppression, and our part in interrupting it -That's why we both post in threads like this.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Wait. There was a shit storm over an ftm giving birth? Seriously? > so bloody what! Not every ftm is a hetero median representative of what male and man is. Most.of the ftms I know transition into their own understanding of their gender and sex. That means many of them like to be fisted, have no issue with penetration in any hole and one of my ftm mates actually went off T to give birth because his wife couldn't. I didn't blink, if his body can do it and he's agreeable, its part of his gender and sex expression. Why does what one person does have to be representative of an entire group if they are in a minority? Isn't that a bit fucked up? Why do we ask people to be spokes people for gender, sex and sexual orientation for everyone? We aren't borg . One femme will never be able to represent everyone with a feminine gender expression. Why do we expect others to do it?

Just ugh.

[Gemme]

CCB, the guy's name is Thomas Beattie. He bore 3 beautiful babies before his final reassignment surgery.

Originally Posted by dykeumentary

GEMME by quoting what I wrote so completely, your post feels like you are being negative to me specifically. I wasn't being specifically negative to you.

There were only TWO people that made comments that fit what you rallied against. Anya and myself, so yeah. It was personal.

I posted what I did because I know that many people read what's here. I posted what I did because it was an opportunity to talk about how people who don't even intend to be hurtful get pulled into mental health oppression.

It was relevant to this thread not only because we have a responsibility to other BFP posters to interrupt hurtful language, but also because Oprah probably didn't mean to be hurtful to anybody, yet (as you pointed out) many trans people are/were/could be harmed by this segment on her show. This is a thread about how out actions impact others.

So since you posted to me personally, here is my personal response back to you:

You wrote about your experience with your mom and I feel genuine compassion for you, that must have been so difficult.
Sadly though, our experiences of being hurt by someone with mental health issues does not give you or anyone permission to say things like "there's a screw loose" -- that's a bad way to say you don't agree. If you are talking about somieone's mental condition, and if you ARE a psychiatrist, you wouldn't have permission to talk about their condition here anyway.

First, free speech allows me the 'permission' to say whatever I'd like. Granted, just because someone can SAY something doesn't mean they SHOULD. Westboro, anyone?

I brought up my personal experience because your post read like 'this has been my experience and so that makes it perfectly fine for me to pass judgment on what you said'. You are not an island unto itself. Like I said, mental health affects all of us and most of us have had experience, either directly or indirectly, so we all have the same right to speak out about it, one way or another.

I wasn't saying "I don't agree". I was saying that, given the information I had at that time, I felt that maybe one or both of them could benefit from some professional help because the line drawn between 'problem' and 'solution' didn't feel logical to me. It felt belittling to those who actually have to struggle and work towards a transition and not just 'opt' to do it. As others have since said, it could very well be the propaganda and the media's approach to it. Or not. It felt like they were saying that Jacki's choice was the easiest to make.

Actually, most people could benefit from professional help in the mental health field. Life is stressful.

So you are a lawyer? It's my understanding that medical professionals can speak publicly and clearly about anything that's a public case. The line is drawn when it's one of their own patients. That's doctor-patient confidentiality and would certainly prohibit a doctor from discussing their personal patient's case and history.

An experience of being hurt by someone with a broken leg doesn't give you permission to say "that's so lame." An experience of being hurt by someone with cognitive delays doesn't give you permission to say "that's so retarded." An experience of being treated badly by a poor person doesn't give you permission to say "That's ghetto" The list goes on.

It's clear from your total number of posts that you care about this site. I don't know you, nor do I find sport in shaming anyone.
You and I both feel the responsibility to talk about everyday oppression, and our part in interrupting it -That's why we both post in threads like this.

Some of the correlations you drew confuse me. For one, one doesn't have to be poor to be ghetto and vise versa. And I just don't get the lame comment. I can't see where 'that's so lame' would be offensive, hurt leg or not. To be clear, I understand what lame means. I just don't see the offense in it.

The number of one's posts means nothing. You have less than 400 but you have strong opinions and are vocal about what you feel strongly for. I don't judge people on how often they do or do not post.

I'm really balking at you speaking for me and others, which you have done multiple times now. You don't know what I feel responsibility for or why I post in threads. At all. It feels very condescending for you to speak as though you do and I would rather it not continue.

I appreciate good debate but I feel our discussion is pulling the train off the rails, so if you'd like to address this with me privately, feel free. I welcome it.

[*Anya*]

Originally Posted by *Anya*

Then, they decided to get married but couldn't legally so Jacki changed her sex?

Not because Jacki identified as transgendered but just to be able to marry Christine?

I wonder about both of their mental statuses.

I am ordering up full psych consults times two.

Yes, it trivializes coming out for transfolk and trivializes coming out for lesbians.

It is insulting for all of us and for all of our struggles that any of us could so easily turn on and off who we are with a switch.

Yep, I was the other one that made what I saw as a light-hearted, if rather flip, comment about their possibly needing an evaluation if Jacki changed her sex solely for the purpose of marrying Christine.

Honestly, it is difficult to be genuine when one has to constantly re-evaluate every comment and observation in a forum so as to not offend someone, somewhere.

Do I not have empathy and compassion for the mentally ill and chemically dependent? Have I not shown that in the 3-years that I have posted here?

Do I sometimes make a comment that I think is humorous that others do not find funny at all? Clearly.

I am sorry if my comment, specifically about Christine and Jacki's behavior came off as heartless and stirred up pain for past or present history.

My feelings get hurt easily. I don't challenge every comment written that might bother me. I feel that my own past experiences are mine alone and if someone makes a comment that offends-they are not directing it at me personally.

Unless they are-in that case, I can either chose to let it go or address it. Since Gemme stood up and faced the comments directed at the two of us; I needed to do so, too.

I am sorry I may have caused hurt but still believe that as the story is written (which may not be true); I still question their judgement.

Perhaps questioning their judgement would have been less offensive than questioning their mental status.

I agree with that.

[Okiebug61]

Why does or how does one's own journey and the shoes they walk in be an overall deciding factor of another's journey?

Should we even be questioning their personal decisions? If so, does this not open the door for all to be scrutinized?

Last when does the things we do for love take on a true meaning?

[*Anya*]

Isn't the point of a forum to have "lively debate"?

Can we not question? How do we learn if we do not question?

We call each other on everything if we think we have crossed a line or even if we simply disagree.

What would be the point of forums if everyone agreed with everything and everyone?

[Gemme]

Okiebug, they opened the door to scrutiny when Christine went on Oprah years ago and when they allowed Harpo to do a story on them as a couple.

But yes, I do believe that if this were a couple who did not seek attention and thusly put it 'out there', we would have no right to comment.

I don't agree with the choices made, but it's not my life to live. If they feel they made the best choices for themselves, great. They are the ones who have to deal with the fallout from those choices.

I still feel as if the information presented minimizes the enormity of the process of transition and I still don't believe that authenticity was prevalent in the decisions made. That is probably the kindest, gentlest way I can say it.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I argue with myself, frequently.

Nothin wrong with a bit of argy-bargy. Keeps things spicy and sexy.

[tantalizingfemme]

To me, the fact that Jacki is still referred to as her/she speaks on whether she is really trans. I personally don't see her as really wanting to be a man so that she can live as a man... she just wanted to be able to check that box for a marriage license. That to me is where there is a "slap in the face" to those who really are living a trans experience.

Sounds almost like an entitled child. I want what I want when I want it so rather than wait and fight for marriage in California, I'm just going to join the straight world and take the easy way out.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I know that's it's super easy to get both breasts removed. I like to do it every five years.

Its the easy way out of any pinch.

Also, christine stated that their situation is more complicated than pronoun use. I know a few of "she's" who consider themselves their own gender. They just aren't all that fussed with pronouns. You just can't know how she feels about her own gender. Some peoples gender fluxes in a day to day fashion. So what?

[tantalizingfemme]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

Some peoples gender fluxes in a day to day fashion. So what?

But do they get all of the straight priveleges that are now legally and permanently afforded to this couple?

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

I know that's it's super easy to get both breasts removed. I like to do it every five years.

Well it was a whole lot faster then waiting for CA to jump on the bandwagon.