So what does being Bisexual, mean to you ?

[Chancie]

Could I count on Starbuck and her lover if I were outed as a teacher and my job was in jeopardy?

Would they say, Oh, she's a fabulous teacher; I can't wait until my child is in high school.

Or would they snicker when my name came up at a PTA meeting?

[Novelafemme]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

Morality is a difficult thing to discuss really. Personal morality is by definition a personal choice. However, the reality is that if you believe yourself to be an ethical person then your response to a situation will be you doing the right or moral thing. Therefore anyone else confronted with the same situation would invariably make the same choice. To claim to not make the rules or to define morality for anyone else is just a way of not accepting this responsibility.

If it is okay for you to cheat, lie, steal or whatever under a certain set of circumstances then it is okay for the other to do the same under the same conditions. To me the measure of morality is that it is impartial.

If it is a logical right thinking choice for you in a situation, then in the same situation it is the logical right thinking choice for other reasonable people as well. Morality should be defined impartially.

The other necessary component for personal morality is equal respect for the humanity of all persons. Not equal respect for everyone in everyway. Just equal respect for the humanity of all.

Thank you, Miss Tick. Beautifully written and articulated in a non-judgemental manner.

[JustJo]

Having been the partner that was cheated on, I have zero tolerance for cheating.

Having been the partner who was "the meal ticket" that was used for my money, I have no respect for those who take financial advantage of others either.

To be clear, if there is honesty in the relationship, then I have no issue. In my view, any set or group of partners can make whatever arrangement works for them with regard to open or closed relationship, or who supports whom....and I have no issue.

But there has to be honesty and openness about what's going on.

I don't have an issue with Starbuck, or anyone else, being bisexual or having multiple partners, even if married or in a committed relationship...as long as that has been shared openly and agreed to.

What bothers me is that Starbuck and her lover are both decieving their partners, and Starbuck makes no bones about staying with her husband for financial security (and because she enjoys some of the activities they share), but that his sexual desire for her is a burden. To me, she is using her husband and lying to him....and that bothers me a lot, especially when coupled with her gleeful confidence that he would never cheat, and her profile statements about loving God and going to church. For me, there's a huge disconnect....and I doubt that her husband would take the same view of the situation that she apparently does.

Anastasia....I feel for you. I truly do. I know how hard it is to be in a sexless marriage with someone you care about. I endured 2 years of that in my first marriage, and it's soul killing stuff.

I do have to say, though, that I still don't agree with the deception (and I don't think you do either or you wouldn't be in such pain about it). Can you not be honest with him about what you have and do feel for him, assure him that you will stay married and continue to provide the medical insurance he needs, and redefine your relationship going forward to allow you to get what you need and want?

Only you can answer that, of course....but to me it's a course worth pursuing, for your own emotional well-being as well as his.

I know that taking the ethical route is hard. I'm doing it now in a different circumstance and struggling to "do the right thing." I still think it's worth doing.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

Morality is a difficult thing to discuss really. Personal morality is by definition a personal choice. However, the reality is that if you believe yourself to be an ethical person then your response to a situation will be you doing the right or moral thing. Therefore anyone else confronted with the same situation would invariably make the same choice. To claim to not make the rules or to define morality for anyone else is just a way of not accepting this responsibility.

If it is okay for you to cheat, lie, steal or whatever under a certain set of circumstances then it is okay for the other to do the same under the same conditions. To me the measure of morality is that it is impartial.

If it is a logical right thinking choice for you in a situation, then in the same situation it is the logical right thinking choice for other reasonable people as well. Morality should be defined impartially.

The other necessary component for personal morality is equal respect for the humanity of all persons. Not equal respect for everyone in everyway. Just equal respect for the humanity of all.

Would you mind terribly if I linked to this in the Breaking the Spell thread? What you say here is the kind of meme I want being batted around in that thread.

Cheers
Aj

[betenoire]

If Caroline loses her sex drive (because she was depressed, because she had had a hysterectomy, because because because) and Jonathan decides to cheat on her (With Judith or Samuel or Blake) because his sexual needs are not being met - I certainly hope that everybody who thinks I am mean today because I say there is no set of circumstances that justifies cheating remembers to dote on Jonathan and be understanding.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Would you mind terribly if I linked to this in the Breaking the Spell thread? What you say here is the kind of meme I want being batted around in that thread.

Cheers
Aj

No, of course I certainly wouldn't mind at all. Help yourself. That's quite flattering coming from you. Thanks.

[Strappie]

Originally Posted by betenoire

If Caroline loses her sex drive (because she was depressed, because she had had a hysterectomy, because because because) and Jonathan decides to cheat on her (With Judith or Samuel or Blake) because his sexual needs are not being met - I certainly hope that everybody who thinks I am mean today because I say there is no set of circumstances that justifies cheating remembers to dote on Jonathan and be understanding.

Bentenoire,

I appreciate your hard stance on this subject. But might I remind you unless you are IN the shoes of these people you will never begin to know and undeerstand how it is for them. You are a very strong person and I commend you for the view you have, that you yourself would never dream of cheating.

Nobody is here to change your thoughts and views!

What I see is some people with compassion and willing to share their life. Perhaps they are reaching out for guidance from us? Or maybe just an ear to get it off their chest.

I for one am not judging these people. Jesus I wasn't ever perfect growing up and still am not perfect.

[Dude]

I once met a couple (butch & femme together for 20 years) who were best
of friends, both married to husbands who were also best friends.
Apparently ,they realized their attraction for each other while the husbands
were away.
They allowed a few weeks for the whole thing to sink in and then told their
husbands and teenage kids.
It's called integrity and I believe the way they handled it, allowed them to
stay together for 20 years
My bet is they are still together.

[Sassy]

Originally Posted by Dude

I once met a couple (butch & femme together for 20 years) who were best
of friends, both married to husbands who were also best friends.
Apparently ,they realized their attraction for each other while the husbands
were away.
They allowed a few weeks for the whole thing to sink in and then told their
husbands and teenage kids.
It's called integrity and I believe the way they handled it, allowed them to
stay together for 20 years
My bet is they are still together.

And that is how things should go down. Kudos to people who live honestly and unapologetically.

[SecretAgentMa'am]

Originally Posted by Strappie

Bentenoire,

I appreciate your hard stance on this subject. But might I remind you unless you are IN the shoes of these people you will never begin to know and undeerstand how it is for them. You are a very strong person and I commend you for the view you have, that you yourself would never dream of cheating.

Nobody is here to change your thoughts and views!

What I see is some people with compassion and willing to share their life. Perhaps they are reaching out for guidance from us? Or maybe just an ear to get it off their chest.

I for one am not judging these people. Jesus I wasn't ever perfect growing up and still am not perfect.

Really? What BFP are you reading? On the BFP I'm reading, people try to change each other's thoughts and views all the damn time.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by Strappie

Bentenoire,

I appreciate your hard stance on this subject. But might I remind you unless you are IN the shoes of these people you will never begin to know and undeerstand how it is for them. You are a very strong person and I commend you for the view you have, that you yourself would never dream of cheating.

Nobody is here to change your thoughts and views!

What I see is some people with compassion and willing to share their life. Perhaps they are reaching out for guidance from us? Or maybe just an ear to get it off their chest.

I for one am not judging these people. Jesus I wasn't ever perfect growing up and still am not perfect.

You know, Strappie, if I didn't know any better I'd have sworn you were trying to Moderate me! (Actually, I thought you were. I pm'd someone to ask if you are a Moderator all of a sudden.)

(and, p/s - when someone says "what you said is flippant and short-sighted! and here is why!" they absolutely -are- trying to change my views.)

[J. Mason]

One question because I am like up in arms over this, why do people even care if someone is cheating or what others perceive as cheating? It is their life not yours so why be bothered with it?

I may get alot of flaming for this but I just wanted to put it out there as a thought to things.

[SecretAgentMa'am]

Anyone else wanting to get back on topic? I sure am.

I am bisexual. I figured out that I was bisexual in my early 20's, but I didn't actually have a romantic or sexual relationship with another woman until quite a bit later. In the years between, I made out with straight girls at party and got teased mercilessly by an acquaintance about being "bi in theory" because he'd never actually seen me with another woman. When I finally did start dating and having sex with other women, it was almost always as the bi girl in a threesome with a heterosexual couple. The lesbians I did manage to meet at the time wanted nothing at all to do with a bisexual woman, and I didn't know any other bisexuals.

I didn't actually have a serious, committed, monogamous relationship with another woman until I moved to Oregon and met my wife. It was such a revelation to finally meet a woman who I was attracted to who was also attracted to me and didn't think that bisexual women are all just confused, selfish disease vectors. We've been happily together and monogamous for five years, with no end in sight. I can say with confidence that I would never, ever cheat on her. If something ever did happen that resulted in one of us being unable or unwilling to fulfill the other's sexual needs, we'd discuss it and work out a resolution we both could live with (like staying together but opening up the relationship).

Since meeting my wife, I've heard a lot of things from friends and family. I've been told that it's great that I've finally "admitted" that I'm really a lesbian (I'm not and I haven't). A few people have been adamant that I *can't* be bisexual forever, I have to "pick one." Quite a few have assumed that we must be polyamorous because if I'm still bisexual then that means I have to have a partner of each gender at all times. I also get people giving me a sympathetic look and telling me that they were bisexual, too, before they finally came all the way out of the closet and admitted they were really a lesbian.

What I always tell these people is that just like other sexual orientations, I was born this way. I didn't choose to be bisexual and I can't choose to stop being bisexual. I was bisexual when I was 12 years old and playing with Barbies. I was bisexual when I was a sexually aware but inexperienced teenager. I was bisexual when I was exclusively dating men. Now that I'm committed and monogamous, I'm still bisexual. When I'm 100 years old and no longer physically capable of having sex, I'll still be bisexual.

If I had to pick a number, I'd say I'm a Kinsey 4. I am very sexually attracted to men but never really made deep emotional connections with the men I dated and had sex with. I am both sexually and emotionally attracted to women, which is the only difference that keeps me from placing myself in the exact center of the scale.

[citybutch]

Indeed....

Originally Posted by SecretAgentMa'am

Bisexual people are perfectly capable of monogamy, just like straight and gay people are. Being bisexual doesn't make cheating okay.

[betenoire]

It's totally irrational and I know that now, but I really believed for a long time that everybody is bisexual. I got over it a few years ago, but there you have it.

Now the truth: I am more sexually attracted to men than I am to women. However, I am more emotionally attracted to women than I am to men. So it's complicated. It's really complicated.

I have slept with more women than men. Not a tonne more, but more. I haven't had a "relationship" with a man since I was in freaking HIGHSCHOOL, but I clearly have slept with them since then. Since adulthood all of my "steadies" have been women. Probably I'm better at having actual relationships with women than with men because I just in general find women better company. Or possibly it's just turned out that way because I know way more women than I know men.

I would never cheat. That's not to say I'm perfect - I'm not. Do I think dirty thoughts about people other than my spouse? You're damn right I do! I don't think that's bad or abnormal so long as I never -do- anything about it - and of course I wouldn't.

(By the way: I irrationally for no particular reason hate the word "pansexual". (Possibly because it has the word pan in it and I don't find that sexy at all.) I prefer the word bisexual because average people freaking know what it means, so why complicate things by not speaking in a language that people around you can understand?)

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by SecretAgentMa'am

The lesbians I did manage to meet at the time wanted nothing at all to do with a bisexual woman, and I didn't know any other bisexuals.

Been there, done that. In fact, my first real girlfriend was SUPER mean about the whole thing. I can't believe I stayed with that jerkface for nearly 2 years. (Okay, maybe I can. Sometimes I think I stuck it out to prove a point.)

I didn't actually have a serious, committed, monogamous relationship with another woman until I moved to Oregon and met my wife. It was such a revelation to finally meet a woman who I was attracted to who was also attracted to me and didn't think that bisexual women are all just confused, selfish disease vectors. We've been happily together and monogamous for five years, with no end in sight.

Okay now I am seriously all kittens and puppies about you and your wife. I'm -this- close to demanding a set of commemorative spoons. (I like happy people.)

I can say with confidence that I would never, ever cheat on her. If something ever did happen that resulted in one of us being unable or unwilling to fulfill the other's sexual needs, we'd discuss it and work out a resolution we both could live with (like staying together but opening up the relationship).

Which I happen to think is the grown-up approach to that sort of situation.

I also get people giving me a sympathetic look and telling me that they were bisexual, too, before they finally came all the way out of the closet and admitted they were really a lesbian.

I used to get that a lot from people who I was acquainted with (like, ran with the same circle of friends and went to the same parties but nothing more than that) if they saw me with a man. But nobody who actually knew me well has ever pulled that crap, thankfully. I think it would have really hurt me.

[citybutch]

There are ways I agree with you... kind of.

Laws are impartial. The legal thing to do in any given situation is black and white. Stealing for example is illegal... there is no difference in terms of the law that what you are doing is legal or illegal. A murderer is as much operating outside the law as someone who shoplifts. It is merely the level of punishment that will differ. Both a murderer and someone who steals is operating outside the law. What may be legal behavior may not be moral. What is moral behavior is always legal.

Ethical or moral behavior, on the other hand is far more blurred and far LESS black and white. What may be legal behavior may not (and sometimes IS not) ethical or moral behavior. Ethical/Moral behavior is behavior that we would want to be above and beyond legal behavior. For our society for some it is based on the Golden Rule. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you... or even higher, place the needs and concerns of others above your own. This can be open to interpretation. In fact, sometimes two different can come to different solutions based on one's moral universe or moral compass.

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

Morality is a difficult thing to discuss really. Personal morality is by definition a personal choice. However, the reality is that if you believe yourself to be an ethical person then your response to a situation will be you doing the right or moral thing. Therefore anyone else confronted with the same situation would invariably make the same choice. To claim to not make the rules or to define morality for anyone else is just a way of not accepting this responsibility.

If it is okay for you to cheat, lie, steal or whatever under a certain set of circumstances then it is okay for the other to do the same under the same conditions. To me the measure of morality is that it is impartial.

If it is a logical right thinking choice for you in a situation, then in the same situation it is the logical right thinking choice for other reasonable people as well. Morality should be defined impartially.

The other necessary component for personal morality is equal respect for the humanity of all persons. Not equal respect for everyone in everyway. Just equal respect for the humanity of all.

[citybutch]

Sorry... you have a point... I was reading the thread post by post... sorry for any derail...

Originally Posted by SecretAgentMa'am

Anyone else wanting to get back on topic? I sure am.

I am bisexual. I figured out that I was bisexual in my early 20's, but I didn't actually have a romantic or sexual relationship with another woman until quite a bit later. In the years between, I made out with straight girls at party and got teased mercilessly by an acquaintance about being "bi in theory" because he'd never actually seen me with another woman. When I finally did start dating and having sex with other women, it was almost always as the bi girl in a threesome with a heterosexual couple. The lesbians I did manage to meet at the time wanted nothing at all to do with a bisexual woman, and I didn't know any other bisexuals.

I didn't actually have a serious, committed, monogamous relationship with another woman until I moved to Oregon and met my wife. It was such a revelation to finally meet a woman who I was attracted to who was also attracted to me and didn't think that bisexual women are all just confused, selfish disease vectors. We've been happily together and monogamous for five years, with no end in sight. I can say with confidence that I would never, ever cheat on her. If something ever did happen that resulted in one of us being unable or unwilling to fulfill the other's sexual needs, we'd discuss it and work out a resolution we both could live with (like staying together but opening up the relationship).

Since meeting my wife, I've heard a lot of things from friends and family. I've been told that it's great that I've finally "admitted" that I'm really a lesbian (I'm not and I haven't). A few people have been adamant that I *can't* be bisexual forever, I have to "pick one." Quite a few have assumed that we must be polyamorous because if I'm still bisexual then that means I have to have a partner of each gender at all times. I also get people giving me a sympathetic look and telling me that they were bisexual, too, before they finally came all the way out of the closet and admitted they were really a lesbian.

What I always tell these people is that just like other sexual orientations, I was born this way. I didn't choose to be bisexual and I can't choose to stop being bisexual. I was bisexual when I was 12 years old and playing with Barbies. I was bisexual when I was a sexually aware but inexperienced teenager. I was bisexual when I was exclusively dating men. Now that I'm committed and monogamous, I'm still bisexual. When I'm 100 years old and no longer physically capable of having sex, I'll still be bisexual.

If I had to pick a number, I'd say I'm a Kinsey 4. I am very sexually attracted to men but never really made deep emotional connections with the men I dated and had sex with. I am both sexually and emotionally attracted to women, which is the only difference that keeps me from placing myself in the exact center of the scale.

[sweetiefemme]

Originally Posted by citybutch

Sorry... you have a point... I was reading the thread post by post... sorry for any derail...

I am sorry too, cause I started it all.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by sweetiefemme

I am sorry too, cause I started it all.

You didn't start anything, I promise.