It's Time to Boycott Arizona

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Greyson

Right now in California there is a petition being circulated state wide to gather enough signature to put a California version of SB1070 on the ballot in the next election cycle.

The Republican Party is just *determined* to immolate itself in California aren't they? Don't they get it? I'm reminded--in the fractally strange way my mind works--of an old Frantics skit called Tai Kwan Leep. At one point the sensei, who has just given an obnoxious student Ed Gruberman a 'boot to the head', is challenged by another student and asks "have you learned nothing from the lesson of Ed Gruberman"?

In this instance, Ed Gruberman is the Republican party of California and the boot to the head is the results of the midterm elections.

Because the President and the Congress are Democratic the Republicans should have done well--it's what typically happens and despite all the breathless crowing about tidal waves and never before has any sitting President lost seats in a midterm, the fact is that what happened earlier this month was pretty much in line with what has generally happened--the party of the President loses seats. Except in California.

Governor? Went to a Dem. Senatorial race? Went to the Dem. Attorney General? Went to the Dem. House races? Largely won by Dems. Hell, the Democratic party picked up seats in the California Senate! Why? Because of the Hispanic vote. Hispanics turned out in droves and voted their self-interest. They did the math, realized where the GOP wanted to go, and voted for the Dem. Same thing happened in Nevada. Harry Reid should have lost and yes, Angle was a spectacularly bad candidate but he *still* should have lost. But she ran an anti-immigrant campaign and paid the price.

The GOP seems bound and determined to make themselves a rump party. It may not happen in 2012, it could certainly happen in 2016 and by 2020 if the GOP doesn't get it that racism doesn't pay they will learn it then.

Cheers
Aj

[Novelafemme]

Canada is looking better and better all the time! Seriously!!

My brain is mush and I have a huge paper looming...love and hugs, all

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by DomnNC

Please, keep the topic to the current situation, I'm fully aware of past atrocities of people before my time and your time. It just muddles, confuses and blurs the lines of the current situation.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

It's BEYOND silly to refuse to look at the parallels, here.

[The_Lady_Snow]

It's a pretty hot topic, even without alll those things, convos happen. Public libraries were my education for YEARS. I did not own a computer till 2000, television 2002.

Public libraries, standing around listening to peers if one hears something THIS alarming I would think people would research it or shrug it off.

One is easier than the other. Unless of course it affects you or your people directly.

[DomnNC]

Public libraries is a good resource if you have one. They closed down over half the public libraries in the Char-Meck system this year due to lack of funding and it's happening everywhere, just not in Char-Meck.

Perhaps those people that were being called ignorant did listen to "peers" who were just as uninformed and hence the idiots being re-elected.

And why is Canada any better? I just read an article where blacks are 3 times more prone to being pulled over as a result of racial profiling as the aborgines are. There is NO country that is immune to racial profiling.

Here is the part that pertained to Canada:

Canada
Accusations of racial profiling of visible minorities who accuse police of targeting them due to their ethnic background is a growing concern in Canada. In 2005, the Kingston Police Service released the first study ever in Canada which pertains to racial profiling. The study focused on in the city of Kingston, a small city where most of the inhabitants are white. The study showed that black skinned people were 3.7 times more likely to be pulled over by police than white skinned people, while Asian people were less likely to be pulled over than whites or blacks.[13] Several police organizations condemned this study and suggested more studies like this would make them hesitant to pull over visible minorities.

Although aboriginal persons make up 3.6% of Canada's population, they account for 20% of Canada's prison population. This may show how racial profiling increases effectiveness of police, or be a result of racial profiling, as they are watched more intensely than others.[14]

In 2003, Professional Boxer Kirk Johnson launched a Human Rights Inquiry against the Halifax Regional Police based on Racial Profiling. During the inquiry Johnson claimed that he had his car stopped 28 times over five years while in Halifax[citation needed]. The police service was ordered to create a scholarship in Johnson's name.

In February 2010, an investigation of the Toronto Star daily newspaper found that black people across Toronto were three times more likely to be stopped and documented by police than white people. To a lesser extent, the same seemed true for people described by police as having "brown" skin. This was the result of an analysis of 1.7 million contact cards filled out by Toronto police officers in the period 2003 - 2008.[15]"

Just because studies were only begun in 2005 as to racial profiling doesn't mean it didn't exist before then.

[Nat]

Originally Posted by Corkey

Did you know that other states are looking at SB1070 as a template for enacting this racist law? No? Well the state I live in is and so is Texas and New Jersey. It has nothing to do with the boarder being secure, it is racism pure and simple. So I will rail against it in AZ in PA in TX in NJ and any other state that even thinks this is a good idea. It isn't it is RACISM.

As a Texan I am very concerned about the spread of this crap which is one of many reasons it matters so much to me that Arizona feel the negative impact of this. If it is economically and politically rewarding, it will spread like wildfire through many more states.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by DomnNC

Public libraries is a good resource if you have one. They closed down over half the public libraries in the Char-Meck system this year due to lack of funding and it's happening everywhere, just not in Char-Meck.

Perhaps those people that were being called ignorant did listen to "peers" who were just as uninformed and hence the idiots being re-elected.

And why is Canada any better? I just read an article where blacks are 3 times more prone to being pulled over as a result of racial profiling as the aborgines are. There is NO country that is immune to racial profiling.

Here is the part that pertained to Canada:

Canada
Accusations of racial profiling of visible minorities who accuse police of targeting them due to their ethnic background is a growing concern in Canada. In 2005, the Kingston Police Service released the first study ever in Canada which pertains to racial profiling. The study focused on in the city of Kingston, a small city where most of the inhabitants are white. The study showed that black skinned people were 3.7 times more likely to be pulled over by police than white skinned people, while Asian people were less likely to be pulled over than whites or blacks.[13] Several police organizations condemned this study and suggested more studies like this would make them hesitant to pull over visible minorities.

Although aboriginal persons make up 3.6% of Canada's population, they account for 20% of Canada's prison population. This may show how racial profiling increases effectiveness of police, or be a result of racial profiling, as they are watched more intensely than others.[14]

In 2003, Professional Boxer Kirk Johnson launched a Human Rights Inquiry against the Halifax Regional Police based on Racial Profiling. During the inquiry Johnson claimed that he had his car stopped 28 times over five years while in Halifax[citation needed]. The police service was ordered to create a scholarship in Johnson's name.

In February 2010, an investigation of the Toronto Star daily newspaper found that black people across Toronto were three times more likely to be stopped and documented by police than white people. To a lesser extent, the same seemed true for people described by police as having "brown" skin. This was the result of an analysis of 1.7 million contact cards filled out by Toronto police officers in the period 2003 - 2008.[15]"

Just because studies were only begun in 2005 as to racial profiling doesn't mean it didn't exist before then.

NC, my experience of Canada, BC and Ontario really is not based on surveys but on time spent in Canada. When I spent time in Canada, for me as a POC I did not feel, experience the same level of racism. Racism is just not as intitutionalized as here in the States. I could throw out reasons as to why this may be true, but that could be something for you and others to research.

As my mother would forever remind me when I was growing up and into my adulthood, "Two wrongs do not make a right."

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by DomnNC

These are the 22 states considering or drafting legislation similar to Arizona's.

Alabama, Arkansas, Colorado, Florida, Idaho, Indiana, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, Nevada, New Jersey, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas and Utah.

Let me amend this as I was not deflecting for Cody but responding to numerous comments made about "ignorant voters":

People seem to forget that during these economic hard times that some people cannot afford television, radios, newspapers, INTERNET ACCESS, COMPUTERS, or treks into a nearby larger city where one may learn of political activism and what is going on in their own back yard.

Actually, beyond all these you list above I am MOST concerned that there are people in the US Congress who are seriously talking about trying to repeal the 14th Amendment. That, quite honestly, would be my breaking point. If the 14 is repealed or seriously changed, I'm gone because the ONLY thing that puts my mind at ease as I watch my country head down the track toward barbarism are the 1st and 14th Amendments.

As far as the argument re: access to information. I don't buy it. There are public libraries with newspapers and Internet access. Radios are cheap--it doesn't have to be an expensive radio. Most larger cities have free newspapers. One can go to a neighbor and say "hey, when you're done with your daily paper can I have it so I can look for a job and keep up on the world?" There are countless Americans who couldn't name three Supreme Court Justices, either of their Senators, a single representative from their state, their governor or their mayor but I guarantee you that they could tell you absolutely minute detail every last doing of some Kardashian sister or Snooki or 'the Situation' or Lindsay Lohan or what Bristol Palin wore on Dancing with the Stars. There are people living in genuine, honest-to-goodness Third World countries who will find some way to stay informed while we Americans, awash in a sea of information, will go out of our way to be blissfully, blindingly ignorant.

Now, I learned a different ethic growing up. I was taught that as a black American it was incumbent upon me to be aware of the issues of the day. "Ignorance is a luxury for white people, we negroes can't afford it" is something my mother would say to us on a regular basis (and yes, she used the term negroes because that's the term she grew up with).

And you know, I have to say that this pretense we Americans are in love with that there is no substantive difference between someone who knows about a subject and someone who doesn't is nothing short of madness.

If someone believes that global climate change isn't happening, they're wrong. It's not that they have a different opinion, they're simply *wrong*. If someone believes that Iraq had WMD in March of 2003 or had an active nuclear weapons program, they're wrong. Again, not a difference of opinion, just plain out wrong. If someone believes that evolution didn't happen or that there is some controversy within biology such that working biologists think creationism should be taught in public schools, they're wrong. If someone believes that gays and lesbians are more likely to be child molesters, or are more likely to have kids with social pathologies, they are wrong. Not holding a different opinion but demonstrably wrong in an empirically verifiable fashion.

There really ARE people who really ARE ignorant--willfully, deliberately, ignorant. Not uninformed--my granddaughter is uninformed on a whole raft of subjects but she's three. I'm talking about people who are ignorant, who hold forth on subjects expressing their opinions as if they were facts and then get bent out of shape when it is pointed out to them that their facts are entirely wrong. That is ignorance and ignorance is not something we should encourage or suffer lightly or long. Some of these ignorant people vote. I'm not saying they shouldn't have the *right* to vote but it's a mistake to pretend that an informed voter and an uninformed voter are doing the same thing--they aren't.

Cheers
Aj

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by DomnNC

[B]Public libraries is a good resource if you have one. They closed down over half the public libraries in the Char-Meck system this year due to lack of funding and it's happening everywhere, just not in Char-Meck.

Perhaps those people that were being called ignorant did listen to "peers" who were just as uninformed and hence the idiots being re-elected.

And why is Canada any better? I just read an article where blacks are 3 times more prone to being pulled over as a result of racial profiling as the aborgines are. There is NO country that is immune to racial profiling.

No one is saying Canada is a paradise on Earth. If I make the obvious statement that the United States of America is more politically and economically stable, less violent and has more social capital in the form of voluntary associations than, say, Somalia have I made some statement that the United States is somehow without any kind of political upheaval, has no economic problems, has no violence and no social pathology? No. I've made a comparison, nothing more and nothing less. Now, empirically, the United States IS more politically and economically stable than Somalia. Somalia is in the midst of a civil war that has been going on and off for the last two decades. The country is has no functioning economy to speak of. But that does not mean that the United States is some kind of Nirvana--simply that in comparison to Somalia the USA is a much better place to live.

If I make the statement that the United States, compared to the major European economies, has some serious problems have I now reduced the USA to the status of Somalia? Again, no! I'm simply making the empirical statement that, all things considered, a baby born in Denmark will live longer, on average, than a baby born in Oregon. The former will have free education and medical care and the latter likely will not. The former will have a strong safety net under her and the latter will not. Again, I can make this comparison without stating that Denmark is a nation without problems or that the USA is something out of the Dark Ages.

Cheers
Aj

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by DomnNC

Public libraries is a good resource if you have one. They closed down over half the public libraries in the Char-Meck system this year due to lack of funding and it's happening everywhere, just not in Char-Meck.

This one paragraph gives an indication of the priorities and challenges of your local government. All of us are making our priorities known. Yes, California and the SF Bay Area are not for all of us. I can tell you in my community libraries are not closing.

Okay, I am going off topic here. Stepping off of the soap box.

[DomnNC]

And there are REALLY people who live in rural areas with NO mode of transportation, no income to take a bus into a city, no income to buy a paper, no income to buy a cheap radio as you say and NO income to barely keep their family afloat and out of starvation. Do you think people who are living on the streets, pulling food out of garbage cans to feed themselves and their kids are going to be focused on what is going on in Arizona or any other state for that matter. They are trying to survive!!. If you think there are NOT those types of situations in the US then you are ignorant to their plight as well!

[DomnNC]

Laughs, I was just pointing out that ALL countries engage in racial profiling. Is that such a hard concept to grasp? It has nothing to do with babies in Denmark for crying outloud.

[Corkey]

My father fought in WW2, he did so because he knew of the certain fact that if he didn't, and men and women like him didn't fight we would all be under the heavy boot of the Nazis. There were only radios and movie theaters back then, and word of news went round the country and people were informed. In many ways they were better informed because of a little thing called community. They all knew each other, they knew their neighbors in the next town. They could inform and debate each other face to face, prove the truth of their convictions without fighting each other. My father instilled in me a since of doing the right thing, even if it made my life harder. The right thing is often hard, but it is easier than doing nothing at all to help your neighbor. My father was a bigot in many ways, my father was a hero in some, my father learned from his mistakes, he finally gave up being a bigot when his offspring proved the righteousness of his convictions.
Ignorance of others and how others live is no excuse to be a bigot. We in this country have no excuse to judge others based solely on their skin color. We also have no excuse not to be informed.

[DomnNC]

And back then people weren't afraid to sleep with their doors and windows unlocked.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by DomnNC

Laughs, I was just pointing out that ALL countries engage in racial profiling. Is that such a hard concept to grasp? It has nothing to do with babies in Denmark for crying outloud.

Yes, I agree that most countries do racial profiling whether they knowingly do it, admit to it. As for surviving, I hear your frustration. Many of us urban dwellers also deal with survival. These scenarios just do not happen all of a sudden one day, over night.

Much of what is happening in our world today is based on a long history of choices. Individual choices and collective. No one can afford to stick their heads into the sand.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by DomnNC

And why is Canada any better? I just read an article where blacks are 3 times more prone to being pulled over as a result of racial profiling as the aborgines are. There is NO country that is immune to racial profiling.

Article...Wikipedia. Poh-TAY-toe...Poh-TAH-toe.

Well I just read an article from 1996 that says that Black people in the US are nearly 5x more likely to get pulled over than White people! Canada wins! Wait...you mean you WEREN'T trying to have a competition? My bad.

Yes of COURSE Canada has corrupt police officers. Sweet jesus, anywhere that there are police (or other people in power) there will be corruption. It is, unfortunately, human nature.

As obsessed as I am with my Canada, I have no issues with admitting that we are not without our problems. Our current PM is a fuckstick conservative from Alberta who would make us into USA-junior if he thought he could get away with it, for starters. Our unemployment rate is 7.9%. We're like the 7th (last I checked) biggest polluter in the world.

But I'll tell you what problem we don't have: We do not have on the books laws designed specifically to harm people for not being white. I do believe that is what whoever it was who brought up Canada was driving at.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by DomnNC

And back then people weren't afraid to sleep with their doors and windows unlocked.

Quite the opposite it was the depression, my Grandfather kept a loaded shot gun in the house, my father when working on the farm was always armed.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by DomnNC

And there are REALLY people who live in rural areas with NO mode of transportation, no income to take a bus into a city, no income to buy a paper, no income to buy a cheap radio as you say and NO income to barely keep their family afloat and out of starvation. Do you think people who are living on the streets, pulling food out of garbage cans to feed themselves and their kids are going to be focused on what is going on in Arizona or any other state for that matter. They are trying to survive!!. If you think they are NOT those types of situations in the US then you are ignorant to their plight as well!

Firstly, let us take it as read that ANYONE posting here or in any other Internet venue either has access to a public library, an Internet café, or their own computer and Internet access at home (or are using a neighbors). So this argument about people not having access to information falls apart ENTIRELY for anyone posting on the Internet.

Secondly, in 2000 I moved to Oregon and was laid off a just before the end of the year. By mid-2001 I had gone through my severance pay. By early 2002 I was maxed on my credit cards. In 2000 I made about 70K. In 2001, I made about 10K. In 2002, I made the princely sum of 11K. Now, during that time, I kept the following utilities--gas, electricity, phone and Internet. I didn't have cable TV but I kept DSL access because A) I needed to have Internet access to get a job and B) to stay informed and connected to the world.

Thirdly, I'm not talking about people living on the streets. Unless Oregon is extraordinarily blessed with the second or third highest unemployment rate in the state, there are simply NOT enough people living on the streets to explain the phenomenal level of voter ignorance and apathy. Now, it may be that other parts of the country are doing far worse than Oregon is.

Lastly, I wonder how many of these people living in rural areas could tell you about what happened on Dancing with the Stars, or Jersey Shore or some other piece of electronic, televisual confection. I'm not talking about people living on the streets. I'm talking about people who have access to television and/or radio and/or Internet and/or libraries and/or have children in public schools who couldn't name their governor, their senator, or any other elected official. I'm talking about people with access to ALL of those who couldn't name three Supreme Court Justices if their lives depended upon it. I'm talking about people who couldn't name three freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States but will jump up and lead a chant of USA! USA! USA! and tell you that the United States is number one in everything that a nation could want to be tops in at the drop of a hat. I'm talking about people who have jobs, houses, clothes on their backs, bread for their children, a television in every room but not a single damn book in their entire house. I'm talking about people who drive gigantic Chevy and Ford urban assault vehicles (SUVs) with DVD players and fantastic stereos, that get 6 miles per gallon and use that gigantic machine to drive three blocks to pick up a quart of half-and-half.

Did I say that there aren't people in the straits you describe in this country? No. I will say this, though, you're goalpost moving. You're choosing to focus on people who are homeless as if that were such a significant number that it explains the manifest ignorance and voter apathy. Although any reading of my part of this conversation should make it reasonably clear that I'm talking about people who HAVE the means but choose not to avail themselves of it.

Cheers
Aj

[Corkey]

I might make an observation here, homeless people don't vote, they can't they must have an address.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Um I've never slept with my doors and windows unlocked even with loaded fire arms in the house