Tristan Taormino - loves butch girls

[Kobi]

I saw this quote in another thread. When it started with I love butch girls, I was cautiously optimistic of its contents. By the time I finished I was both amused and annoyed.


"I love butch girls. Girls with slick, shiny, barbershop haircuts, trimmed so short your fingertips can barely grip it. Girls with shirts that button the other way. Girls that swagger... Girls who get stared at in the ladies' room, girls who shop in the boys department, girls who live every moment looking like they weren't supposed to. Girls with hands that touch me like they have been exploring my body their entire lives... It is the girls that get called sir every day who make me catch my breath, the girls with strong jaws who buckle my knees, the girls who are a different gender who make me want to lay down for them."

-Tristan Taormino


This is why it was annoying to me. I'm wondering if anyone else is having the same or similar thoughts.

1. The word "girl" to me indicates a prepubescent female. To me, post puberty, "girls" become women. To refer to grown people as "girls" to me seems disrespectful and almost infantilizing. It might just be a pet peeve of mine.

2. While Tristan is entitled to her version of what a "butch girl" is. I would have preferred if she worded it as her opinion or preference or what gets her blood hot rather than using sweeping generalizations and stereotypical examples lumped into "butch girls". "Butch" is a very large category of very diverse people, appearances, presentations, genders, etc.

3. This made me chuckle - "Girls with hands that touch me like they have been exploring my body their entire lives". We have Tristan. Regardless of how we now identify, we are female either by birth or by choice. We have your body. We have explored your body. We know your body. We know how to play your body much like a musician plays an instrument. We know how to make many different kinds of music with that body to bring you the different pleasure you might desire. Why does her quote make it seem like some miracle or strange twist of fate?

4. This confused me - "the girls who are a different gender". I admit, I still have trouble with the sex/gender thing. But is this even logical? Can you be a girl of a different gender? Arent you a "girl/female" or gendered in a way more representative of who you are using whatever term you choose to use?

So, your thoughts?

[Tawse]

For me the term 'girl' is yicky for butches or other masculine minded persons.. Could just be that the more masculine minded friends of mine all cringe when "girl" is used to refer to them.

As for the generalization - if we sterilize and PC everything - then it loses it's flow IMO. I don't take her to be defining me, I take her to be defining what she encompasses as butch. I get her point. If it doesn't apply to me, I move along. I don't expect the world to use PC lingo all the time. This may make me the rebel, and I'm ok with that. I don't want all of my literature to read like a legal document.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by Tawse

For me the term 'girl' is yicky for butches or other masculine minded persons.. Could just be that the more masculine minded friends of mine all cringe when "girl" is used to refer to them.

As for the generalization - if we sterilize and PC everything - then it loses it's flow IMO. I don't take her to be defining me, I take her to be defining what she encompasses as butch. I get her point. If it doesn't apply to me, I move along. I don't expect the world to use PC lingo all the time. This may make me the rebel, and I'm ok with that. I don't want all of my literature to read like a legal document.

I just need to pipe in and say that the word *girl* can be considered belittling/demeaning to those of us non-butches as well as it is often misapplied to adult women in general. When referring to adult males, the corresponding term of *boy* is rarely applied.

That being said, I don't believe the author of the quote is doing that here (being intentionally demeaning).

I just wanted to point out that the term *girl* is overused in general and can grate on all identities.

[Tawse]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

I just need to pipe in and say that the word *girl* can be considered belittling/demeaning to those of us non-butches as well as it is often misapplied to adult women in general.

That being said, I don't believe the author of the quote is doing that here. I just wanted to point out that the term *girl* is overused in general (and can grate on all identities) whereas when referring to adult males, the corresponding term of *boy* is rarely applied.

completely agree! however among my friendship group, I see a large portion of "as long as it's me or mine calling me a girl I'm ok with it".

So either way... I act according to whatever the person wants to be called.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by Tawse

completely agree! however among my friendship group, I see a large portion of "as long as it's me or mine calling me a girl I'm ok with it".

So either way... I act according to whatever the person wants to be called.

I'm not referring to any of us who use the term *girl* in an affectionate or personal way b/w lovers and/or friends. Of course, whatever terms float your boat b/w you and your SO or peer group is cool. I am talking about the overuse and misapplication of the term *girl* by society at large when referring to women.

[Hollylane]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

I just need to pipe in and say that the word *girl* can be considered belittling/demeaning to those of us non-butches as well as it is often misapplied to adult women in general. When referring to adult males, the corresponding term of *boy* is rarely applied.

That being said, I don't believe the author of the quote is doing that here (being intentionally demeaning).

I just wanted to point out that the term *girl* is overused in general and can grate on all identities.

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

I'm not referring to any of us who use the term *girl* in an affectionate or personal way b/w lovers and/or friends. Of course, whatever terms float your boat b/w you and your SO or peer group is cool. I am talking about the overuse and misapplication of the term *girl* by society at large when referring to women.

I completely agree HowSoonIsNow. I love that my Butch calls me her girl, or babygirl. When she says it, it doesn't feel like it is a way to refer to me as less than her, or childlike. It is said with love, and it makes me feel good.

But, I bristle when I hear it used in the manner that you describe. Society has a way of continuing to demean women by using words in a way that makes them sound lesser than men. Being the blunt person that I am, frequently puts me in the position of politely correcting people when they use "girl" in the demeaning way, and patiently explaining why it is not appropriate. I think most people are not even aware that they are doing it, because it is still so engrained in our culture when referring to women.

That's why the universe created people like us, who continue to coax others to evolve(whether they want to or not).

[Dude]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

I just need to pipe in and say that the word *girl* can be considered belittling/demeaning to those of us non-butches as well as it is often misapplied to adult women in general. When referring to adult males, the corresponding term of *boy* is rarely applied.

That being said, I don't believe the author of the quote is doing that here (being intentionally demeaning).

I just wanted to point out that the term *girl* is overused in general and can grate on all identities.

I got prickly when I tried to read what that woman wrote.
Something in me screeched to a halt and stopped reading.
So many things just do not fit for butches.
Lword? A show I tried to get excited about.
I saw the pictures of those women and said nope
thats not for you either lol and never watched.
Glamour butch , pretty butch, nope ,not hardly.
I'm fifty and need things to relate to and decided that
story was not for me
somewhere around the second sentence.

Several years back I tried "dating" a (girl) woman
who digs butches but she didn't understand or "get me".
(not a member on this site) She started an event thing
called girl on girl. Um no.
Not only am I so not a girl ,you will never hear me call
anyone that I'm involved with a "girl" or any form of it.
I am also not ok with the term boi or boy in terms of
describing me.
I hated being called a baby butch but way (WAY) back in the
day, I was one.

I prefer the company of women and hope that there are
femmes out there who still prefer the term woman
in describing themselves.
Words are important to me and some have deeper meanings
than others.

(To me) The word woman brings amazing thoughts and feelings,
that girl cant begin to come close to.
The scent of a woman
When I think woman I think captivating , well seasoned
and capable grown up.
I am very literal in my thinking and that's ok.
Is it an old school thang? Should I blame it on my mother?
Should I change my mentality? nahhh, it's just me.
I respect the word woman in a way I just cant respect girl.
An adult, grown, mature,woman (who is also very much a lady)
sounds like a dream come true (to me.)
There are people who hate the term lady and what that
implies too. To me, it means charming with a bit of demure that
oozes a confident wisdom and subtle sexiness.
Light on the "public" raunch (at least what can be seen..snort)
but worlds away from prudey.
Dare I say classy woman because classy grates
on some people too. My grandmother grew up a migrant worker and
had class for days ( what I speak of , is so not about the money )

different strokes and all that

slurpin my coffee with my pinkie out kind of butch

[Tawse]

and to me... girl and boi/y are used in an entirely different light... brings to mind eager submissives... (with nothing immature about them)


*le sigh

I think I will be rereading "the boy in the middle" now...

[dykeumentary]

"I love butch girls. Girls with slick, shiny, barbershop haircuts, trimmed so short your fingertips can barely grip it. Girls with shirts that button the other way. Girls that swagger... Girls who get stared at in the ladies' room, girls who shop in the boys department, girls who live every moment looking like they weren't supposed to. Girls with hands that touch me like they have been exploring my body their entire lives... It is the girls that get called sir every day who make me catch my breath, the girls with strong jaws who buckle my knees, the girls who are a different gender who make me want to lay down for them."

If I read that in a personal ad, I would ask her out on a date in a new york minute.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I loved her wording, for me it described how it feels to have the visual, sexual, physical effect I have and have had towards a girl who's opposite of me. Also I can identify with the gender since my gender is not what was imposed at birth. When I read the word girl in her quote above I can close my eyes and visualize my first girl kiss to the first time I was touched by a girl who wore clothes only the boys wore. I have more but typing on this iPhone is a pain in the booty!

[dark_crystal]

Originally Posted by Kobi

I saw this quote in another thread. When it started with I love butch girls, I was cautiously optimistic of its contents. By the time I finished I was both amused and annoyed.


"I love butch girls. Girls with slick, shiny, barbershop haircuts, trimmed so short your fingertips can barely grip it. Girls with shirts that button the other way. Girls that swagger... Girls who get stared at in the ladies' room, girls who shop in the boys department, girls who live every moment looking like they weren't supposed to. Girls with hands that touch me like they have been exploring my body their entire lives... It is the girls that get called sir every day who make me catch my breath, the girls with strong jaws who buckle my knees, the girls who are a different gender who make me want to lay down for them."

-Tristan Taormino


This is why it was annoying to me. I'm wondering if anyone else is having the same or similar thoughts.

1. The word "girl" to me indicates a prepubescent female. To me, post puberty, "girls" become women. To refer to grown people as "girls" to me seems disrespectful and almost infantilizing. It might just be a pet peeve of mine.

2. While Tristan is entitled to her version of what a "butch girl" is. I would have preferred if she worded it as her opinion or preference or what gets her blood hot rather than using sweeping generalizations and stereotypical examples lumped into "butch girls". "Butch" is a very large category of very diverse people, appearances, presentations, genders, etc.

3. This made me chuckle - "Girls with hands that touch me like they have been exploring my body their entire lives". We have Tristan. Regardless of how we now identify, we are female either by birth or by choice. We have your body. We have explored your body. We know your body. We know how to play your body much like a musician plays an instrument. We know how to make many different kinds of music with that body to bring you the different pleasure you might desire. Why does her quote make it seem like some miracle or strange twist of fate?

4. This confused me - "the girls who are a different gender". I admit, I still have trouble with the sex/gender thing. But is this even logical? Can you be a girl of a different gender? Arent you a "girl/female" or gendered in a way more representative of who you are using whatever term you choose to use?

So, your thoughts?

The term "girl" has a lot of different shades of meaning depending on the context of the speaker. I would like to know how old the speaker is and where she is in the country

I am totally a girl. Mr. Jenny can also be heard to refer to herself as a girl. I am femme, she is butch, we are both over 40, we are in Southest Texas.

If she would have have started out with "The girls I love are the kind I call 'butch girls'" instead of "i love butch girls" i think every objection Kobi has here would be nullified. The only problem is that she is not all the way in her "me" space

i do kind of love the "live every moment looking like they weren't supposed to" line

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by dark_crystal

The term "girl" has a lot of different shades of meaning depending on the context of the speaker. I would like to know how old the speaker is and where she is in the country

I am totally a girl. Mr. Jenny can also be heard to refer to herself as a girl. I am femme, she is butch, we are both over 40, we are in Southest Texas.

If she would have have started out with "The girls I love are the kind I call 'butch girls'" instead of "i love butch girls" i think every objection Kobi has here would be nullified. The only problem is that she is not all the way in her "me" space

i do kind of love the "live every moment looking like they weren't supposed to" line

Tristan Taormino (born May 9, 1971) is a feminist author, columnist, sex educator, activist, editor, speaker, and pornographic film director (she also appeared in three films, two of which she directed, 1999–2000).

She teaches sex and relationship workshops around the world and lectures at top colleges and universities including Princeton, Yale, Brown, Columbia, Cornell, University of Toronto, Wesleyan, Vassar, University of Oregon, Swarthmore, and New York University, where she speaks on gay and lesbian issues, sexuality and gender, and feminism.

Taormino stated in an online interview, "I identify strongly as queer and as a dyke, because, as I have said before, it's not just about who I fuck and love, being queer is also about my politics, my culture, my community, and the way I see the world. People want to call me bisexual or pansexual or whatever, but I believe in people's power to self-identity."

In addition, "she describes herself as 'equal opportunity.' She doesn't like the word 'bisexual' -- it's too polarizing."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tristan_Taormino


Just a brief synopsis of who this is.

[dark_crystal]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Tristan Taormino (born May 9, 1971) is a feminist author, columnist, sex educator, activist, editor, speaker, and pornographic film director (she also appeared in three films, two of which she directed, 1999–2000).

She teaches sex and relationship workshops around the world and lectures at top colleges and universities including Princeton, Yale, Brown, Columbia, Cornell, University of Toronto, Wesleyan, Vassar, University of Oregon, Swarthmore, and New York University, where she speaks on gay and lesbian issues, sexuality and gender, and feminism.

Taormino stated in an online interview, "I identify strongly as queer and as a dyke, because, as I have said before, it's not just about who I fuck and love, being queer is also about my politics, my culture, my community, and the way I see the world. People want to call me bisexual or pansexual or whatever, but I believe in people's power to self-identity."

In addition, "she describes herself as 'equal opportunity.' She doesn't like the word 'bisexual' -- it's too polarizing."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tristan_Taormino


Just a brief synopsis of who this is.

LOL

I googled her, but I am at work, so....

[QueenofSmirks]

Originally Posted by Kobi

I saw this quote in another thread. When it started with I love butch girls, I was cautiously optimistic of its contents. By the time I finished I was both amused and annoyed.


"I love butch girls. Girls with slick, shiny, barbershop haircuts, trimmed so short your fingertips can barely grip it. Girls with shirts that button the other way. Girls that swagger... Girls who get stared at in the ladies' room, girls who shop in the boys department, girls who live every moment looking like they weren't supposed to. Girls with hands that touch me like they have been exploring my body their entire lives... It is the girls that get called sir every day who make me catch my breath, the girls with strong jaws who buckle my knees, the girls who are a different gender who make me want to lay down for them."

-Tristan Taormino


This is why it was annoying to me. I'm wondering if anyone else is having the same or similar thoughts.

1. The word "girl" to me indicates a prepubescent female. To me, post puberty, "girls" become women. To refer to grown people as "girls" to me seems disrespectful and almost infantilizing. It might just be a pet peeve of mine.

2. While Tristan is entitled to her version of what a "butch girl" is. I would have preferred if she worded it as her opinion or preference or what gets her blood hot rather than using sweeping generalizations and stereotypical examples lumped into "butch girls". "Butch" is a very large category of very diverse people, appearances, presentations, genders, etc.

3. This made me chuckle - "Girls with hands that touch me like they have been exploring my body their entire lives". We have Tristan. Regardless of how we now identify, we are female either by birth or by choice. We have your body. We have explored your body. We know your body. We know how to play your body much like a musician plays an instrument. We know how to make many different kinds of music with that body to bring you the different pleasure you might desire. Why does her quote make it seem like some miracle or strange twist of fate?

4. This confused me - "the girls who are a different gender". I admit, I still have trouble with the sex/gender thing. But is this even logical? Can you be a girl of a different gender? Arent you a "girl/female" or gendered in a way more representative of who you are using whatever term you choose to use?

So, your thoughts?

Hi Kobi,

The exerpt looks familiar, and I'm thinking I might have read it in an introduction to an anthology, a LONG time ago. Is this the case?

I have a couple of different thoughts about this -- being a published writer of erotic fiction myself, sometimes you have to tweak your words to appeal to your audience. I'm not sure that's what Tristan is doing here, but that's the vibe I got. Second, everyone has a journey, and I'll admit my own journey of involvement with people who have identified as butch and /or trans has come a LONG way, so words I may have used in the past I wouldn't use today, and views I may have had in the past don't exist today. Lastly, I know several butches who refer to themselves as "butch girl", so while those two words together may not resonate with everyone, it *is* a label that exists.

That's just my six cents....

[QueenofSmirks]

I'm running late so can't read the rest of the thread, but I did just read Post #14 where you explain it's a quote from 1999. Will read (and post) more later!