"Becoming Chaz"

[Leigh]

I just saw the part where he visits his sponsor Jane and her partner who loaned him the money for the surgery, and it was really sweet that Jane was so emotional cuz she was so happy for him :-)

[Rockinonahigh]

Its been a long time since I knew ,but how much is top surgery?I mean no disrespect to anyone by asking because I was told there was a doc hear that would do a sevire reduction I doubt its the same thing but the price is way less so ive herd.Tomorrow im caling his office to see about the price cause im curious.

[citybutch]

That was a painful and surprisingly sexist comment. And it was painful for me to hear as well.... and untrue...

I think, however, it may reflect Chaz's experience's of his own body when he was female bodied before transition. Perhaps... and this is purely conjecture... but perhaps Chaz had a very low libido or experiences very low libido due to his lack of connection to his female body. I believe the comment was a deep reflection of Chaz and nothing more...

Originally Posted by Thinker

I found this from an article online. While it does mention the two women who loaned him the money for the surgery, it also brings up a part of the documentary that really stood out to me.....the "awkward silence" when Chaz made mention of a sex drive that women are somehow unable to experience/feel.

Midway through "Becoming Chaz," the raw and revelatory documentary about Chaz (nee Chastity) Bono's physical transition from female to male, Chaz visits his Alcoholics Anonymous sponsor and her partner to show them the results of his recent chest surgery. The women, who loaned Chaz the money to have his breasts removed, have prepared a lovely brunch and while Chaz chows down, he eagerly describes the side effects of his transition, which includes regular doses of testosterone. Not only does he find himself increasingly unable to abide women's "gabbing," he tells them, his sex drive has increased enormously.

"It's a shame women can't feel it," Chaz says, "and know how biological it is."

"Huh," says his sponsor. And while Bono, oblivious, continues to eat, the two women sit, frozen in a brief but excruciating pause. It all comes down to chemistry, after all.



Read more: http://www.kansascity.com/2011/05/09...#ixzz1MT2iXKE3


ETA: I found myself grimacing during this segment.

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by Rockinonahigh

Its been a long time since I knew ,but how much is top surgery?I mean no disrespect to anyone by asking because I was told there was a doc hear that would do a sevire reduction I doubt its the same thing but the price is way less so ive herd.Tomorrow im caling his office to see about the price cause im curious.

I used the same Dr as Chaz, and mine was a little over 8 grand.

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by Rockinonahigh

Its been a long time since I knew ,but how much is top surgery?I mean no disrespect to anyone by asking because I was told there was a doc hear that would do a sevire reduction I doubt its the same thing but the price is way less so ive herd.Tomorrow im caling his office to see about the price cause im curious.

I've seen a range of (US money) $5,000-$9,000.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by citybutch

That was a painful and surprisingly sexist comment. And it was painful for me to hear as well.... and untrue...

I think, however, it may reflect Chaz's experience's of his own body when he was female bodied before transition. Perhaps... and this is purely conjecture... but perhaps Chaz had a very low libido or experiences very low libido due to his lack of connection to his female body. I believe the comment was a deep reflection of Chaz and nothing more...

What do you mean untrue?

The sex drives of guys on T does go up exponentially; it is known effect of testosterone. (for anyone)

[citybutch]

There are plenty of women with exponential sex drives.... It may be hormone driven... it may also be between the ears...

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

What do you mean untrue?

The sex drives of guys on T does go up exponentially; it is known effect of testosterone. (for anyone)

[Soon]

Originally Posted by citybutch

There are plenty of women with exponential sex drives....

I am just saying that (and it was even just posted on the doc.) that ONE of the effects of testosterone is an increased sex drive--it is a physiological response to the T.

[citybutch]

Indeed... I am not arguing with that... and the comment I am addressing is:

""It's a shame women can't feel it," Chaz says, "and know how biological it is.""

The implication Chaz made was that women do not feel the same level of sex drives as men... and that just is not true..

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

I am just saying that (and it was even just posted on the doc.) that ONE of the effects of testosterone is an increased sex drive--it is a physiological response to the T.

[Leigh]

Chaz looks great in a suit, I hope to look that good in one someday

[Heart]

Originally Posted by citybutch

""It's a shame women can't feel it," Chaz says, "and know how biological it is.""

The implication Chaz made was that women do not feel the same level of sex drives as men... and that just is not true..

What made me wince in Chaz's comment was the possible subtext (totally unintentional I'm sure) that if women could understand how biological men's sex drive is, they might excuse sexually aggressive behavior, be more willing to meet men's need for sex, etc etc etc... it's the kind of thinking that, in the extreme, has been used to justify rape.

Heart

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by Heart

What made me wince in Chaz's comment was the possible subtext (totally unintentional I'm sure) that if women could understand how biological men's sex drive is, they might excuse sexually aggressive behavior, be more willing to meet men's need for sex, etc etc etc... it's the kind of thinking that, in the extreme, has been used to justify rape.

Heart

I can totally see how that can be interpreted that way, which is why words need to be chosen very carefully when talking about these kinds of subjects. I think I understand what Chaz was trying to say, at least I think so. When I went on T and started on my full dose back in November, I was just shocked at how high my sex drive went. I have never experienced anything like that in my life. It was actually overwhelming for me. I imagine that is what Chaz was getting at. However, no amount of hormone-driven sex drive justifies bad behavior, especially rape. But I honestly do not think that Chaz was trying to justify anything, just making note of how much his sex drive changed on the T.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

I can totally see how that can be interpreted that way, which is why words need to be chosen very carefully when talking about these kinds of subjects. I think I understand what Chaz was trying to say, at least I think so. When I went on T and started on my full dose back in November, I was just shocked at how high my sex drive went. I have never experienced anything like that in my life. It was actually overwhelming for me. I imagine that is what Chaz was getting at. However, no amount of hormone-driven sex drive justifies bad behavior, especially rape. But I honestly do not think that Chaz was trying to justify anything, just making note of how much his sex drive changed on the T.

Chaz made a couple of statements that felt a little "over compensatory" to me, perhaps trying to define that line between who he was when he lived as a lesbian and the man he is now. (For example, how much women talk, gossip, etc.) It's not uncommon, but it was decidedly sexist.

As much as these statements made me outwardly cringe, especially the one referenced here, I think any subtext can only be implied by others. It really felt to me more a matter of his own astonishment at how high sex drive is not a myth. I understand where Heart is coming from, and it's a point worth making, but it really feels reaching to assume Chaz meant that women "might excuse sexually aggressive behavior, be more willing to meet men's need for sex..."

[Rockinonahigh]

Originally Posted by Thinker

I've seen a range of (US money) $5,000-$9,000.

WOW..lotta $$ to b shure.

[Thinker]

Good read titled Trans Framing, or why Chaz Bono doesn't speak for me

The author also draws some comparisons to what Chaz's doc did for public opinion versus what the movie Boys Don't Cry did. Well written.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/0...t-speak-for-me

[Heart]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

I understand where Heart is coming from, and it's a point worth making, but it really feels reaching to assume Chaz meant that women "might excuse sexually aggressive behavior, be more willing to meet men's need for sex..."

Well, I made the point worth making, so not sure where the "but" comes from, as I did not assume that Chaz was referencing assault or rape. It is possible to understand and support Chaz in his personal journey, (which he is choosing to make public for good reasons), and still examine the implications of his use of sexist language. They are not mutually exclusive of one another.

Heart

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by Thinker

Good read titled Trans Framing, or why Chaz Bono doesn't speak for me

The author also draws some comparisons to what Chaz's doc did for public opinion versus what the movie Boys Don't Cry did. Well written.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/0...t-speak-for-me

Thanks for posting this, Thinker, it's a thoughtful and well stated piece. It also helped me put my finger on some of the issues I couldn't name, but were lingering as bothersome for me, especially on this notion of "becoming" when in fact, one already "is." As well as:

"I think it's unfortunate that we've moved from that powerful narrative of trans maleness as authentic identity to a narrative of transition as medically- and surgically-constructed masculinity."

Originally Posted by Heart

Well, I made the point worth making, so not sure where the "but" comes from, as I did not assume that Chaz was referencing assault or rape. It is possible to understand and support Chaz in his personal journey, (which he is choosing to make public for good reasons), and still examine the implications of his use of sexist language. They are not mutually exclusive of one another.

Heart

Of course they are not mutually exclusive of one another, and I absolute agree his use of sexist language - in multiple applications - should be examined (most especially by him).

Thank you for clarifying that you did not "assume that Chaz was referencing assault or rape." That was from whence my "but" came, since his intent is unknown. I'm very glad you opened up the discussion on Chaz sexist language, as it was something that stood out to me while watching the documentary, and which astounded me.

[citybutch]

Thank you so much for posting... !

Originally Posted by Thinker

Good read titled Trans Framing, or why Chaz Bono doesn't speak for me

The author also draws some comparisons to what Chaz's doc did for public opinion versus what the movie Boys Don't Cry did. Well written.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/0...t-speak-for-me

[BullDog]

I didn't watch the documentary, but I just watched a 4 minute clip from him being on Letterman, and to me it reinforced the stuff the author was talking about from the link Thinker provided.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31749_16...-10391698.html

Maybe he is going through a bravado phase. When Letterman asked him if his interactions with women were different he said, well I think I frustrate my girlfriend more. I can be an "A." I can be insensitive. I can be a guy.


WTF?

[Heart]

The article Thinker linked to is interesting and I really appreciate the author's framework, especially as it relates to sexism and stereotypes, but the narrative is far broader and deeper than the issue of Chaz's, or Brandon Teena's, or any one person's transition, coming out process, or identity. The narrative really is: Identity in the Context of a Sexist and Misogynistic Culture. It is a shared narrative, one that impacts all of us and that we are all responsible for.

And to be fair to Chazz, I believe I heard him say that he has always felt himself to be male (as opposed to becoming male), and even said that his relationship with his gf was never a "lesbian" relationship. It's difficult to hold Chaz alone accountable for the narrative/framework imposed upon all of us by sexism and misogyny.

Plus... I continue to find the use of the word "cis" (as used in the author's essay) to be problematic and have sexist/misogynistic implications when applied across the board to reference non-trans people. Like stereotypes, it's a simplification that upon closer examination, doesn't hold up well.
But maybe I'm hair-splitting.