|
The Butch Zone For all things "Butch" |
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
08-09-2012, 12:20 PM | #101 | |
Member
How Do You Identify?:
femme Preferred Pronoun?:
she Relationship Status:
single Join Date: May 2011
Location: Oregon
Posts: 352
Thanks: 1,458
Thanked 1,116 Times in 281 Posts
Rep Power: 9628890 |
I did derail the thread into my own personal trip. That wasn't cool. For this reason primarily I will bow out. I am not butch. This isn't a thread for me to opine in, and then derail the process with my personal interpretation.
I apologize. Peace and Blessings Quote:
|
|
08-09-2012, 01:58 PM | #102 | ||
Timed Out - Permanent
How Do You Identify?:
Butch. Lesbian. Dyke. Woman. Female. Preferred Pronoun?:
She, of course! Relationship Status:
Content Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Small Town Life
Posts: 2,880
Thanks: 7,858
Thanked 11,730 Times in 2,432 Posts
Rep Power: 0 |
Quote:
Quote:
The internalized stuff is huge because we dont always see it - and even when it is pointed out to us, we still dont always see it .... sometimes, even just having it pointed out to us can make us angry because it goes against what we have been conditioned to believe for how ever long we've been around. That internalized stuff comes from our conditioning that masculine and maleness is valued more than femininity and femaleness. From birth, girls are ingrained with this idea - we are treated differently than boys, we are given different toys, told what games to and not to play, etc. and we are shown that in most, if not all ways, boys are more valued. Hell, when I was 16 years old, my parents got me an old 1972 Pontiac LaManns in banana yellow - and I loved the hell out of that car lol. A year and a half later, when my little brother turned 16, they took the car from me and gave it to him, telling me that "boys need cars" and that if I wanted to get a ride somewhere, I should ask a boy or find a boy with a car to date. This wasnt in the 1950s - this was in the mid-late 1980s - but I do understand that a lot of what they said and felt came from their own upbringing in the 50s. From an early age until I left home - and even after I left home and was in the Navy (and dont get me started on how the Navy treated/treats women with what jobs we can and cannot do!) - I was taught by my parents who I was supposed to be and that I would never be as good as a boy or man; that being male was the top of the pyramid. Hell, all the way through college and well into being in the Navy, all my mom wanted for me was to find a nice rich man to take care of me - a sugar daddy - because, apparently, I couldnt take care of myself. I have to wonder if that's part of why I almost transitioned when I was in my early 20s. I never wanted to be a man, but so many people already thought I was a man and so many others were telling me I should transition that I thought that maybe I should just get it over with (I still, to this day, have people telling me I should transition). I started to hate the woman in me because, according to what I had learned so far, she was holding me back, keeping me from certain jobs, clothing, sports, etc. It took me such a long time to realize it was society that was fucked up, not me. I wanted to add that I am not in any way trying to say that I dont like men or male id butches or that I think they are bad or somehow wrong - I am not trying to imply that I have had it worse off than anyone else - I dont play the oppression olympics .... we all face violence, we all feel invisible at one time or another, and we all can have feeling of being devalued. I am just speaking about my experiences as a butch woman walking through this patriarchal world. |
||
The Following 11 Users Say Thank You to Parker For This Useful Post: |
08-09-2012, 02:41 PM | #103 | |
Infamous Member
How Do You Identify?:
Biological female. Lesbian. Relationship Status:
Happy Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Hanging out in the Atlantic.
Posts: 9,234
Thanks: 9,840
Thanked 34,666 Times in 7,654 Posts
Rep Power: 21474860 |
Quote:
This made me start thinking.....did you ever notice how we, as women, have been socialized to put qualifiers in the things we say? We should be able to just speak what we experience or feel and it should stand on its own as a reflection of our experience. Yet, we are taught to be mindful of how something we say or feel might impact on others and to acknowledge it and address it in some way.
__________________
|
|
08-09-2012, 03:04 PM | #104 |
Timed Out - Permanent
How Do You Identify?:
Butch. Lesbian. Dyke. Woman. Female. Preferred Pronoun?:
She, of course! Relationship Status:
Content Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Small Town Life
Posts: 2,880
Thanks: 7,858
Thanked 11,730 Times in 2,432 Posts
Rep Power: 0 |
This is true .... I have to wonder if that stretches into the realm of labels, for lack of a better term. I rarely ever hear gay men - the gay men in my experience and my circles (to add another qualifier lol) - talk about being male or female ID'd - save for the occasional butch or femme reference, nor do I hear a lot of my gay men friends speak in terms of cis- this or that, for them, it is straight up gay, straight, men, women.
But thb, I learned some of it on-line as well - because if we were irl, you could see my face, hear my tone and inflections and you would know that I was speaking for and about me, while not diminishing others; you would know that 99% of my sarcasm and humor is said and meant with zero malice because that's just how I am - a sarcastic smartass who means no harm. On-line though, my sarcasm and humor can sometimes come across as asshole-ish behavior and I have had people in the past take posts like that and think I was trying to diminish others by speaking of my experiences; so have I learned to add a lot of and and sometimes, like above, just flat out say that I wasnt trying to marginalize others. |
08-09-2012, 07:44 PM | #105 |
Practically Lives Here
How Do You Identify?:
Femme Preferred Pronoun?:
dee Relationship Status:
Hitched up Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Livin’ the Dream
Posts: 24,079
Thanks: 30,560
Thanked 54,958 Times in 13,923 Posts
Rep Power: 21474873 |
[QUOTE=Kobi;629689][COLOR="Navy"]
<snip> Dee also raises an interesting point about how she wishes to be seen and how she chooses to partner. Makes sense to me and I applaud her independent thinking. And, I am sure, on the whole, it will be well received. However, if I as a female butch say I will only date women who exclusively date other women because this reflects who I am and what I am all about, will it be received with the same respect? </snip> Thanks Kobi and i didn't even realize i was in the butch zone, but i do love this sort of thread because i want to learn about others. Kobi, i imagine your statement is the same as me saying for ME, i only wish to date women who do not want to become a transman or pass as a man. i feel like that reflects who i am and what i am all about. Lot's of wonderful people in the world, but i am only attracted to certain traits... i imagine some may find that offensive? |
08-09-2012, 10:26 PM | #106 | |
Member
How Do You Identify?:
Stonefemme lesbian Preferred Pronoun?:
I'm a woman. Behave accordingly. Relationship Status:
Single, not looking. Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,467
Thanks: 9,474
Thanked 7,151 Times in 1,206 Posts
Rep Power: 21474852 |
Quote:
Parker, I'm so sorry that you've had to hear that, and that you continue to hear it. I also highlighted your disclaimer. I understand that you have good reason to feel that a disclaimer must be appended. I wish we could simply say, "We don't want to be men" without having to sooth the possibly outraged males who may perceive our matter-of-fact statements of female ID as an insult to themselves. The phenomenon bears a strong resemblance to the responses I've read here on this site whenever men are criticized. Five of the first six responses to a linked article written by a trans guy about the incredibly offensive things men say to each other about women when they think they are amongst themselves essentially said, "You shouldn't criticize men because women are terrible." Yes, I know that's somewhat reductive, but that was the strong, clear message I took away from that exchange. I was treated similarly to you within my family. My parents told my sister and I that we would have to get scholarships to college, but that they would find a way to pay for my brother's education. He would be responsible for supporting a family, after all. (Those conversations happened in the 1970's, and he has not, as yet, supported anyone at all.) We have a long way to go before we can eradicate the internalized misogyny that was and is inflicted on us.
__________________
Cheryl |
|
08-09-2012, 10:31 PM | #107 | |
Member
How Do You Identify?:
Stonefemme lesbian Preferred Pronoun?:
I'm a woman. Behave accordingly. Relationship Status:
Single, not looking. Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,467
Thanks: 9,474
Thanked 7,151 Times in 1,206 Posts
Rep Power: 21474852 |
Quote:
__________________
Cheryl |
|
08-10-2012, 01:39 AM | #108 | |
Infamous Member
How Do You Identify?:
Biological female. Lesbian. Relationship Status:
Happy Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Hanging out in the Atlantic.
Posts: 9,234
Thanks: 9,840
Thanked 34,666 Times in 7,654 Posts
Rep Power: 21474860 |
Quote:
I spent a lot of time mulling this over today and having flashbacks to less pleasant times. Having grown up in a very traditional Italian family, the message was very clear.....girls/females/women behavior, dress, think, aspire to, prefer, defer, etc certain things. I very much felt female but the traditions didnt fit who I was, how I behaved, how I thought, what I aspired to, or how I preferred to dress. Heck, I even remember the day my brother told me I didnt wash my hands like a girl. There was a girls only way of washing hands? Really? I remember watching people wash their hands after that. I didnt have the words for it back then, but today I can say it was really weird to me that people ascribed masculine and feminine to something as mundane as handwashing. Little did I know how deep and far reaching that dichotomy ran. There was never a disconnect inside of me, or between my internal self and my body. There was a disconnect between the internal me and the external world. Society was saying my way of being female was being interpreted as being masculine/male-like and that was not a good thing. When I came out as a young adult, once again, what felt perfectly normal and natural to me was framed into something else because I didnt fit the norm of what being a woman was about back then. So, who I was was transformed into, "I was a lesbian because I wanted to be a man." Sigh. Throughout my life, I have tried on different labels hoping to find one that reflects the totality of who I am and is perceived in the way I wish it to be. Considering our community invents more and more labels to reflect its growing diversity, you would think I could find one that works, or at least one that I dont have to continuously explain or qualify. Nowadays, I just prefer to say I am a female/woman who expresses my femaleness/womanness my way. Simple, yes? Nah. Regardless of what I say or feel, others still experience me and treat me from within their own frame of reference/experience which does not always match mine. People stuff is really tricky shit. Society stuff is really tricky shit. A lot of the isms have become so institutionalized, and so internalized that it is sometimes different to distinguish between what might be an ism vs a preference, or an ism vs humor, or malicious intent vs naivete, or cultural differences vs ???. Very, very, tricky stuff.
__________________
|
|
08-10-2012, 06:14 AM | #109 | |
Practically Lives Here
How Do You Identify?:
Femme Preferred Pronoun?:
dee Relationship Status:
Hitched up Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Livin’ the Dream
Posts: 24,079
Thanks: 30,560
Thanked 54,958 Times in 13,923 Posts
Rep Power: 21474873 |
Quote:
Bouncing into the online subject, While being online in Virtual Reality for a while (Second Life to be exact) and on these forums i found that many butches use the *he* pronouns online, then in real life they use *she* pronouns. (In real life i find this confusing). i chatted with a few of them when told me they are really more comfortable with *she* pronouns but felt that it was expected that if they were butch they were male ID'd. My Syr is the only one that i can remember that insisted on *she* and constantly correcting all of us that she is a she. i don't feel one pronoun is better than another but i do feel that some people do, and there is some expectation that butch = male, that all butches should want to transition... even in our own community. |
|
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to girl_dee For This Useful Post: |
08-10-2012, 09:29 AM | #110 |
Senior Member
How Do You Identify?:
Dear Ol Butch Bones Preferred Pronoun?:
Old G Relationship Status:
Too old to play. Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: :rolleyes:
Posts: 1,546
Thanks: 3,597
Thanked 3,732 Times in 1,096 Posts
Rep Power: 21474852 |
[QUOTE=Kobi;630097][COLOR="Navy"]
. Having grown up in a very traditional Italian family, the message was very clear.....girls/females/women behavior, dress, think, aspire to, prefer, defer, etc certain things. I very much felt female but the traditions didnt fit who I was, how I behaved, how I thought, what I aspired to, or how I preferred to dress. Kobi; A lot of traditional Italian families were also matriarchal led such as mine . Mine nurtured my strength as a butch, gave me independence, did'nt make me or my partner of thirty plus years do or think anything we did'nt want too. Please do not give this thread the wrong impression about what traditional Italian families are or are not concerning butches and others. Thank-You |
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Glenn For This Useful Post: |
08-10-2012, 10:46 AM | #111 | |
Infamous Member
How Do You Identify?:
Biological female. Lesbian. Relationship Status:
Happy Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Hanging out in the Atlantic.
Posts: 9,234
Thanks: 9,840
Thanked 34,666 Times in 7,654 Posts
Rep Power: 21474860 |
Quote:
I found this very interesting. In real life, I cant think of anyone who used any pronoun but *she*. Then again, I dont remember there being another option either. Online, things seem to be a little different. Perhaps there is more exploration of identities, more experimentation to see if something else works better, more opportunity to be exposed to new and different ways of conceptualizing oneself, more variety to find the niche that defines the you you know yourself to be. Perhaps there is some degree of peer pressure involved in our effort to fit in, be accepted, and attract the type of person we are looking to attract. We define, refine, sometimes even find ourselves in relation to others. So others have the potential to have a profound effect on us. Perhaps, on some level, if you identify as masculine or are perceived as masculine, there is the recognition of the privilege that comes with it. It can be very seductive, very powerful, and very empowering. Interesting to think about.
__________________
|
|
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Kobi For This Useful Post: |
08-10-2012, 11:13 AM | #112 | |
Infamous Member
How Do You Identify?:
Biological female. Lesbian. Relationship Status:
Happy Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Hanging out in the Atlantic.
Posts: 9,234
Thanks: 9,840
Thanked 34,666 Times in 7,654 Posts
Rep Power: 21474860 |
[quote=Glenn;630220]
Quote:
Glenn, we had different experiences. In the 1950's, my traditional Italian experience was very patriarchal, very male, very old fashioned male-female rigidly defined roles, expectations, and even laws. I had many exceptional female role models who did exceptional things under extraordinary circumstances but it saddened me to know they didnt see themselves as exceptional women. It saddened me that they didnt value the other females in their lives in the way I expected. It saddened me when my maternal great grandmother who owned a successful farm which was run by her and her 2 unmarried daughters, left those daughters destitute and homeless when she died because she left the farm to her sons. I am speaking to my experience. Perhaps you might wish to revisit my earlier post which read: "This made me start thinking.....did you ever notice how we, as women, have been socialized to put qualifiers in the things we say? We should be able to just speak what we experience or feel and it should stand on its own as a reflection of our experience. Yet, we are taught to be mindful of how something we say or feel might impact on others and to acknowledge it and address it in some way." You are welcome and encouraged to speak from your experience. I would love to hear how a strong matriarchal led family shaped the person you are. Thank you
__________________
|
|
08-10-2012, 01:32 PM | #113 | ||
Timed Out - Permanent
How Do You Identify?:
Butch. Lesbian. Dyke. Woman. Female. Preferred Pronoun?:
She, of course! Relationship Status:
Content Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Small Town Life
Posts: 2,880
Thanks: 7,858
Thanked 11,730 Times in 2,432 Posts
Rep Power: 0 |
Quote:
I am masculine - I just also happen to be a woman at the same time and I, personally, dont believe the two are mutually exclusive. Quote:
I feel like that's bullshit, but what can you do - each person has to do right by and for themselves, not by and for me! Personally, I've never been he/hy - on-line or irl. |
||
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Parker For This Useful Post: |
08-10-2012, 01:42 PM | #114 |
Infamous Member
How Do You Identify?:
Dominant Stone Butch Daddy Preferred Pronoun?:
She Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: In A Healing Place
Posts: 5,371
Thanks: 18,160
Thanked 22,783 Times in 4,469 Posts
Rep Power: 21474856 |
The idea that you call femmes she and butches he so you can tell them apart is such bullshit. What do you do when you have two friends named Terry, call one by a different name? No. It seems like a lot of anxiety- like heaven forbid a butch might be talking in chat and someone makes the fatal mistake of thinking it was a femme typing. Oh my. Talk about the worst crime in the world.
__________________
Love consists in this, that two solitudes protect and touch and greet each other. - Rainer Maria Rilke |
The Following 12 Users Say Thank You to BullDog For This Useful Post: |
08-10-2012, 02:21 PM | #115 |
Infamous Member
How Do You Identify?:
Dominant Stone Butch Daddy Preferred Pronoun?:
She Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: In A Healing Place
Posts: 5,371
Thanks: 18,160
Thanked 22,783 Times in 4,469 Posts
Rep Power: 21474856 |
On the positive side of things, despite all the online b.s. and some out in the real world too, being a butch woman who does embrace masculinity is very freeing and allows me to fully be myself. I do not in any way feel that masculinity is owned by men. I also see men embracing feminine aspects so women don't own femininity either. I am not bound to follow any rules or be a man or male to be the butch and masculine person that I am. I have my own role models and do not live to anyone's expectations other than my own. I do not fit in with the stereotype of woman, but I am just as much a woman- just a different type. Embracing masculinity is very natural to me and seeing myself as a woman makes me feel connected to women who have gone before me throughout history as well as now. I experience life as a woman. To disassociate from that reality for me personally would be a disservice to myself. So I am happy being me.
__________________
Love consists in this, that two solitudes protect and touch and greet each other. - Rainer Maria Rilke |
08-10-2012, 05:05 PM | #116 | |
Infamous Member
How Do You Identify?:
Biological female. Lesbian. Relationship Status:
Happy Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Hanging out in the Atlantic.
Posts: 9,234
Thanks: 9,840
Thanked 34,666 Times in 7,654 Posts
Rep Power: 21474860 |
Originally Posted by Kobi
Perhaps, on some level, if you identify as masculine or are perceived as masculine, there is the recognition of the privilege that comes with it. It can be very seductive, very powerful, and very empowering. Quote:
I was using masculine in a non-gender specific way.
__________________
|
|
The Following User Says Thank You to Kobi For This Useful Post: |
08-12-2012, 08:40 AM | #117 |
Member
How Do You Identify?:
as myself Preferred Pronoun?:
She Relationship Status:
Single Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Leesburg, FL
Posts: 595
Thanks: 2,876
Thanked 2,118 Times in 501 Posts
Rep Power: 17077996 |
I have tended to use' hy' here, for butches, as it seems to be the way that it works. I am perfectly comfortable using 'she', though. For me, it is whatever the person prefers. For some, the pronouns 'ze' and 'hir' work better, and I am fine with that, as well.
|
08-12-2012, 09:14 AM | #118 |
Infamous Member
How Do You Identify?:
Lesbian non-stone femme Preferred Pronoun?:
She, her Relationship Status:
Committed to being good to myself Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: West Coast
Posts: 8,258
Thanks: 39,306
Thanked 40,790 Times in 7,290 Posts
Rep Power: 21474856 |
I tend to never use pronouns online as unless someone specifies what they prefer, as I am always afraid I will call them the wrong pronoun and they will get either pissed or feel hurt.
Coming from the old-school lesbian world, where butches still called themselves "her" and "she", it has been an education and at times, has felt like a minefield; to come online and find that over the last 10-years or so, that things had changed. I had never heard, in the offline world, any of the new prounouns. I still really do not but the online world frequently is different than the outside world. I still have a hard time using them and in interpersonal interactions online, occasionally "slip" without meaning to. Change is difficult.
__________________
~Anya~ Democracy Dies in Darkness ~Washington Post "...I'm deeply concerned by recently adopted policies which punish children for their parents’ actions ... The thought that any State would seek to deter parents by inflicting such abuse on children is unconscionable." UN Human Rights commissioner |
The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to *Anya* For This Useful Post: |
08-12-2012, 08:02 PM | #119 |
Senior Member
How Do You Identify?:
pervert butch feminist woman Preferred Pronoun?:
see above Relationship Status:
independent entity Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Oakland
Posts: 1,826
Thanks: 4,068
Thanked 7,656 Times in 1,522 Posts
Rep Power: 21474852 |
I'm still twitching ...........however I really dislike when folks come in and stir the pot and then leave the thread for one excuse or another.........when the real reason is someone(s) challenged what they said and pointed out the 'isms' in what was said.
bio-dames.........laughin...........that's definitely a new one for me....
__________________
We are everywhere We are different I do not care if resistance is futile I will not assimilate |
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Toughy For This Useful Post: |
08-20-2012, 07:33 AM | #120 | |
Timed Out
How Do You Identify?:
stone femme Daddy's girl Preferred Pronoun?:
she/her Relationship Status:
disinterested Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: in my head
Posts: 991
Thanks: 5,848
Thanked 3,745 Times in 734 Posts
Rep Power: 0 |
Quote:
my laughter was the derisive snort variety but that's just because i'm a schmuck. <----- think i'ma change my "how do you identify" answer to "bio-dame" face |
|
|
|