OCCUPY WALL STREET

[MsMerrick]

AtLast, I disagree with your general statement. If you wanted to reword it to s say that often a movement caught fire or got media recognition, when it was taken over by the white middle class..I "might" agree. But I remind you that "historical facts" are reported by the white middle class..Particularly going back to the 50's and for many years forward, whites were pretty much the only people recognized as being a story !

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by MsMerrick

AtLast, I disagree with your general statement. If you wanted to reword it to s say that often a movement caught fire or got media recognition, when it was taken over by the white middle class..I "might" agree. But I remind you that "historical facts" are reported by the white middle class..Particularly going back to the 50's and for many years forward, whites were pretty much the only people recognized as being a story !

I can live this. Although, one has to study the key organizer's biographical information. Middle-class does not only contain white people would be another point I would like to make. Funny how we take don't recognize POC that are middle or also upper-middle-class.

But, I certainly see your point about what was/is considered a "news story." I am thinking about things like the Natalee Holloway case, or the Lacy Peterson case. There was months and months of in depth media coverage on both of these from the start- just when they were both "missing persons."

How many POC cases are covered like that? In fact, an African American woman's body was discovered at the very same area Lacy & Connor Peterson's was and it got little attention.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I don't know the numbers of how many Latinos are showing up at these protests I'm reading and listening to my Latino based sources be they media, radio, articles and they are encouraging us to make a stance and show up at these protests with caution. The caution comes from when a person who is not white gets arrested their process is a teeny tiny bit harder when it comes to making bail I myself know this from being arrested at peaceful protests and having been treated a lil rougher cause I'm Latina and gay, this weekend I hope that many many peoples that aren't white show up to Occupy Jacksonville I have a feeling it won't be so multicultural though.

[SoNotHer]

"In the less than three weeks since protesters first converged in lower Manhattan, similar demonstrations have already cropped up in Boston, Chicago, Los Angeles and other U.S. cities, and organizers in dozens of other countries – including Canada – say they will do the same. Here’s what you need to know about the movement."


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle2193829/

[JAGG]

The people who invested with Enron are victims of a crime. Innocent victims who didn't have a clue . Yes they should be helped any way possible. This is not even on the same spectrum as the person who opted not to be prepared for an accident or illness.
Someone who chooses not to protect themselves or prepare for something in advance is not a victim. They knew the risk they chose to take it and it back fired. Not a victim they are a volunteer. You choose the behavior you choose the consequences. Not taxpayers responsibilty to bail you out because you chose to do the wrong thing. That's life. You live with the desicions you make. Suffer through the consequences and you will be apt to make better choices in the future. You want to dance you have to pay the fiddler. If you don't get car insurance and your car is stolen, you think taxpapers should buy you a new car? Not my responsibility its yours. That's not fair to the people who do the right thing. That's rewarding bad behavoir enabling it. Why would anyone pay for insurance and prepare for a disaster if they can be bailed out when they don't. If are saying I should pay to rescue you from your lame choices, then I should get to have a say in what choices you make. I'm not going to forkover my hard earned money so it can be pissed away on your next bad choice. If I have to pay the band I get to pick the music. That is how I feel about. . We will just have to agree to disagree. I respect your view, I understand it, but I don't agree.

[MsMerrick]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I can live this. Although, one has to study the key organizer's biographical information. Middle-class does not only contain white people would be another point I would like to make. Funny how we take don't recognize POC that are middle or also upper-middle-class.

.

Perhaps you do not, but I certainly do, and that would be why I specifically mentioned White.

[SoNotHer]

Ah, as if I needed confirmation that the OWS movement was touching a nerve and on track:

From http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/1..._n_999853.html

WASHINGTON -- Top House GOP leaders assured attendees at the 2011 Values Voter Summit Friday morning that despite all the attention on fixing the nation's economy, they remain committed to pushing the priorities of social conservatives, including defunding Planned Parenthood and defending the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) in court.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by SoNotHer

Ah, as if I needed confirmation that the OWS movement was touching a nerve and on track:

From http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/1..._n_999853.html

WASHINGTON -- Top House GOP leaders assured attendees at the 2011 Values Voter Summit Friday morning that despite all the attention on fixing the nation's economy, they remain committed to pushing the priorities of social conservatives, including defunding Planned Parenthood and defending the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) in court.

Eric Cantor is a maroon. The fact that the Republicans are continuing business as usual (that is, there is no economic problem and that it's all about the "moral fabric") is not surprising.

His comments here are more telling:

"This administration's failed policies have resulted in an assault on many of our nation's bedrock principles," he said. "If you read the newspapers today, I, for one, am increasingly concerned about the growing mobs occupying Wall Street and the other cities across the country. And believe it or not, some in this town, have actually condoned the pitting of Americans against Americans. But you sent us here to fight for you and all Americans."

But when he spoke at the Values Voter Summit in 2009, Cantor expressed a very different sentiment toward another movement that was arguably "pitting Americans against Americans" -- the Tea Party.

At that time, Cantor praised those protesters as "fighting on the fighting lines of what we know is a battle for our democracy.”

"People are beginning to wake up and see a country they don’t really recognize," said Cantor.

[Dude]

Originally Posted by JAGG

The people who invested with Enron are victims of a crime. Innocent victims who didn't have a clue . Yes they should be helped any way possible. This is not even on the same spectrum as the person who opted not to be prepared for an accident or illness.
Someone who chooses not to protect themselves or prepare for something in advance is not a victim. They knew the risk they chose to take it and it back fired. Not a victim they are a volunteer. You choose the behavior you choose the consequences. Not taxpayers responsibilty to bail you out because you chose to do the wrong thing. That's life. You live with the desicions you make. Suffer through the consequences and you will be apt to make better choices in the future. You want to dance you have to pay the fiddler. If you don't get car insurance and your car is stolen, you think taxpapers should buy you a new car? Not my responsibility its yours. That's not fair to the people who do the right thing. That's rewarding bad behavoir enabling it. Why would anyone pay for insurance and prepare for a disaster if they can be bailed out when they don't. If are saying I should pay to rescue you from your lame choices, then I should get to have a say in what choices you make. I'm not going to forkover my hard earned money so it can be pissed away on your next bad choice. If I have to pay the band I get to pick the music. That is how I feel about. . We will just have to agree to disagree. I respect your view, I understand it, but I don't agree.

Let's say a tornado hit your neighborhood and yours was the only house
left standing.
Let's also say that you were surrounded by poor people who live in trailers.

Your town was hit hard and red cross cant get through the wreckage
for two weeks or so.
Do you hang a sign on your door that says I'm prepared sorry you are not?
Do you invite them in and school them on what you think they should have done,to be more like you?
Do you share your three weeks worth of food with these people or say sorry
that's for me? Hell ,you don't even know them so it ain't your problem they can find someone else to mooch from?
Seriously ,there are many things in life
that cant be prepared for, with money or planning alone.
Maybe you will find that out one day and your tune will change.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

What do you think accounts for the low black and latino turnout at these rallies?

Like Snowy (and ty for responding to this question) what I am posting is only my opinion. No science, statistical anything to back it up. Purely my oberservation and judgment.

It is a little bit different for POC and especailly for those without a certain level of education and/or money, resources when gathering in large numbers. First, if you must be somewhere to earn a living and it is going to make the difference as to whether you can put a roof over your family and food on the table, guess which one you choose? You go to work, not the march.

Second, if you are a member of a group of people that historically have been treated unfailry by our figures of authority and power; One tends to learn how to avoid being in situations that might render you "guilty until proven innocent" or harrassed within the frame of what is legal, maybe, or just humiliating. Many POC have had a few generations to learn the skills of how to survive in a hostile environment. These lessons are not easily unlearned. The trust is not there.

Some people may be undocumented and if arrested fear they will be deported. Others may have a previous criminal record that is recent or decades old. It is possible they cannot afford to have another arrest on their record. Even if the arrest is only civil disobedience.



__________________________________________________ ______________________________

African Americans and Hispanics suffer disastrously high unemployment rates in metro areas
Two new EPI briefing papers by Algernon Austin, director of EPI’s program in race and ethnicity detail the catastrophic effect the nation’s jobs crisis has had on African American and Hispanic communities across the nation. In High black unemployment widespread across nation’s metropolitan areas, Austin compares the post-recession unemployment rates of 2010 to those before and at the end of the recession (2007 and 2009) in 31 metro areas.
http://www.epi.org/publication/high-...politan-areas/
At 24.7 percent, Detroit led the nation in black unemployment in 2010. Likewise, Milwaukee, Las Vegas, and Minneapolis all had black unemployment rates over 20 percent. Sun Belt cities were once a refuge for African Americans seeking employment before the recession, but the metropolitan areas of Charlotte, Miami, Tampa, and Las Vegas all had unemployment rates above the national black average and were among the highest rates of all the metro areas examined.
The Huffington Post used the paper’s findings to create this interactive slideshow depicting the 10 cities where black unemployment is rising fastest.
Hispanic unemployment rates in metropolitan areas around the country had similarly discouraging findings. http://www.epi.org/publication/hispa...ent-northeast/ Of the 38 places studied, 18 saw an increase in Hispanic unemployment of over one percentage point since 2009. Providence, Rhode Island had the highest unemployment for Hispanics with a rate of 25.2 percent, followed by Hartford, Connecticut at 23.5 percent.
This week’s Economic Snapshot further illustrates the high rates of Hispanic unemployment across the nation.
The metropolitan areas with the highest rates of Hispanic unemployment were much higher than the national Hispanic average of 12.5 percent and even rival the peak national unemployment rate during the Great Depression.
“Without a strong federal jobs program, the pain of very high unemployment is likely to be long-lasting for most of America’s metropolitan blacks and Hispanics,” said Austin.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by JAGG

The people who invested with Enron are victims of a crime. Innocent victims who didn't have a clue . Yes they should be helped any way possible. This is not even on the same spectrum as the person who opted not to be prepared for an accident or illness.
Someone who chooses not to protect themselves or prepare for something in advance is not a victim. They knew the risk they chose to take it and it back fired. Not a victim they are a volunteer. You choose the behavior you choose the consequences. Not taxpayers responsibilty to bail you out because you chose to do the wrong thing. That's life. You live with the desicions you make. Suffer through the consequences and you will be apt to make better choices in the future. You want to dance you have to pay the fiddler. If you don't get car insurance and your car is stolen, you think taxpapers should buy you a new car? Not my responsibility its yours. That's not fair to the people who do the right thing. That's rewarding bad behavoir enabling it. Why would anyone pay for insurance and prepare for a disaster if they can be bailed out when they don't. If are saying I should pay to rescue you from your lame choices, then I should get to have a say in what choices you make. I'm not going to forkover my hard earned money so it can be pissed away on your next bad choice. If I have to pay the band I get to pick the music. That is how I feel about. . We will just have to agree to disagree. I respect your view, I understand it, but I don't agree.

Jagg, I know this won't change your view I do feel that I need/want to speak up a dissenting opinion to what you say (as a former fiscal conservative type).

While it certainly is up to each person to ensure they have a safety net, the challenge is what if their safety net is completely gone because the job they had went *poof*, they've used all their savings and nothing is left? What if they went to school to get a decent job, can't find one now that the market is tanked and have an obscene amount of student loans where they are expected to pay $500 a month from the start? Where does this person turn? To me this isn't about bad choices (not any more). It's about events beyond our own control. I've lost jobs and been out of work for a few months but I cannot imagine being out of work for 2+ years. I don't understand how that's an individuals fault.

I would also like to add that we don't have the close-knit communities like we used to. There has been a cultural shift to remote communities and given the discussion currently on this site about "Internet Duplicity" it's hard to be able to ask or give support when faced with challenges like that. So where does the individual turn to at this point? Middle class has been eroded for years (this has been an ongoing discussion in Canada for years -- I think I remember first seeing this in the mid-90s in the Toronto Star or on the CBC).

On the flip side, banks and large industry (most notably the American car industry) claimed that they needed the money to help individuals stay afloat. They got the money and... nothing. Small business, who cannot stay afloat against the likes of Walmart et al., are going under and cannot get loans in a poor market. People looking for work have a market that is impossible to get into. And often, if they manage to get jobs it's at minimum wage (if they are lucky). Individuals, who were willing to work out new payment plans, were ignored by banks. I know of one woman who worked 2 full time jobs for her restructured mortgage program. The bank kept telling her different amounts for her restructured program and every time she paid she was out by x amount (even after asking 3 times for verification as to the amount and when it was due!). They foreclosed on her recently. How is this her fault? Who does she turn to?

I know that this isn't always because of someone not willing to do the work or not having a safety net. I know this because K spent nearly 2 years trying to find work after obtaining a well-regarded Masters degree in a field that is in need of people: social work. She sent out thousands of resumes over the course of that time and got two call backs. Most of the time people didn't even say "We got your resume and will keep it on file" or some other form of acknowledgement. We're very lucky right now: I make a very decent salary and she, during that 2 years, worked for her dad. She managed to get a temporary job with the VA but that has a lot of uncertainty as it could end at any time.

Now, if I lost my job would we survive? Probably not. My savings is enough to pay off everything I owe but losing my job would mean more than that. I'd have to leave the country and probably live with relatives. For me, this whole fight is personal. While I can't be at the rallies I would love to because the reality is... we are the 99%.

I don't think this is a question of living beyond one's means but rather an extended Depression -- and I think it's time we said that it is a Depression. This isn't an extended Recession. This is a fundamental change in the way that the markets work. At one time, these kinds of events caused individuals to rethink and get creative (the old adage of "necessity is the mother of invention") but this feels very different. In a society where mass consumerism has reached it's peak and saturation, and where box stores and the likes of Amazon rule, I wonder if small business and recreation of industries can still exist.

So while some may have mismanaged or misplanned or spent beyond their means, given the size of what is being faced here in the US I don't think that it's true of the majority.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by JAGG

The people who invested with Enron are victims of a crime. Innocent victims who didn't have a clue . Yes they should be helped any way possible. This is not even on the same spectrum as the person who opted not to be prepared for an accident or illness.

Someone who chooses not to protect themselves or prepare for something in advance is not a victim. They knew the risk they chose to take it and it back fired. Not a victim they are a volunteer. You choose the behavior you choose the consequences. Not taxpayers responsibilty to bail you out because you chose to do the wrong thing. That's life. You live with the desicions you make. Suffer through the consequences and you will be apt to make better choices in the future. You want to dance you have to pay the fiddler. If you don't get car insurance and your car is stolen, you think taxpapers should buy you a new car? Not my responsibility its yours. That's not fair to the people who do the right thing. That's rewarding bad behavoir enabling it. Why would anyone pay for insurance and prepare for a disaster if they can be bailed out when they don't. If are saying I should pay to rescue you from your lame choices, then I should get to have a say in what choices you make. I'm not going to forkover my hard earned money so it can be pissed away on your next bad choice. If I have to pay the band I get to pick the music. That is how I feel about. . We will just have to agree to disagree. I respect your view, I understand it, but I don't agree.

Jagg -- Seriously?

You are equating investing in a financial market over a person who is not prepared for an accident or illness?

Imagine this. I had amazing health insurance. This covered all of my treatments and my surgeries, of which I worked really hard through the years to have this great job which gave me great health insurance. 5 years later, I am without a job and my cancer returns. I no longer have insurance and I am no longer employed, yet -- I thought I had prepared for my future, but the fucking economy dropped and I lost everything, including my job. There are no jobs available to me - because the unemployment rate is HIGH! Not to mention, I cannot afford my mortgage payment anymore and did I mention, the credit card companies raised my interest from 10% to 29% and they got away with it? Oh, I did have a savings, but I had to drain it in order to save my life for the moment - Did not save my home though! And my kids, my babies are hungry.

How can you possibly equate a risky financial decision - investments always are - with people who get ill or lose their jobs? And let us not forget about where people grow up and what is available to those people. There is no such thing as fair education in this fucking country of ours. Or fair jobs. While our country likes to say they treat all people equal - this is just bullshit. I stand a better fucking chance at getting a job over a person of color, even if they are better qualified than I am.

What about the 10's of thousands of homeless vets? Yes, homeless men and women who gave their lives and souls to this country, are left to rot and are dying of hunger. Is this their fault?

Car insurance? There is no bank who will loan you a car without insurance. You cannot register a car (paid for or not) without insurance. This is RARE when this happens.

How can you say this? Where is your empathy?

Julie

[Write14u]

Originally Posted by JAGG

Now the mom and pop crisis. I'm sure many will hang me by my eyelashes for my opinion on this but, it's the truth as I see it. My opinion.
If you go into a store and they want 65 dollars for a blanket, you can get somewhere else for 18 dollars, which one do you choose. If you can't change and grow and be flexible, and offer the public something different, something better and your prices are too high you're are going to go out of business. That is a fact. That's bad business practices. Mom and pop shops didn't want to lower prices didn't want to offer a different service didn't want to do anything different, so they failed to compete. Blame it on walmart?

Gotta disagree with you on this one JAGG. It wasn't a matter of not wanting to lower prices for mom and pop businesses.
When Wal-Mart exploded in the 80s and ---yes, put mom and pop places out of business --- it did it because it had the power of money. I know this first hand and witnessed it with my father's television shop. When he ordered a Magnavox, etc., TV for his store, he couldn't even get the same rate as Wal-Mart was SELLING TVs for. Because Wal-Mart bought in such bulk from the manufacturers, it was able to sell TVs for lower than my dad, as a dealer, could buy them. You can say it's not Wal-Mart's fault that it had the money to buy so much at such a low price, and that would be accurate. However, it's not accurate to blame it on smaller businesses who were unable to match those prices without taking steep losses.
And yes, Wal-Mart knocked my dad out of business. He adapted and found other things to sell/do. But in no way, shape or fashion, did he have the money required to compete with Wal-Mart. The only small mom and pop stores remaining open are niche shops.

[Write14u]

And JAGG, as for being prepared: There are people who can barely afford to pay for food. There's not even $10 per month to squeeze out of the budget for any type of insurance, whether it's renters insurance or life insurance, etc.
Julie said it well. There's nothing you can do when you lose your job and you're doing everything you can to find another and something happens to you, such as a medical issue. That's not lack of preparation.

[Julie]

True Story!

A friend of mine died yesterday. He was diagnosed with full blown AIDS 2 years ago. He lost his job because of illness, yet managed to find another one - less paying and without insurance. He could not go to the doctors for general care (just for his aids) and a year ago was diagnosed with Colon Cancer. He was at risk of losing his car - he could not make the car payments, which having a car might not seem like a lot - but it meant, he could not get his HIV treatment. No mass transit where he lived. We as a community raised a few thousand dollars to try and get him on his feet.

He died from a massive infection. He would NEVER have become so ill, had they found the colon cancer earlier, but he did not have insurance. He could not get help. It was too late for him. He died because of our country - our country killed him.

And SweetCali - We lost her as well. We lost her, because this country of ours does not give a shit about people without health insurance. She was treated like a second class citizen and she did not have to die. She should not have died. I believe our country is also responsible for her death.

And what about all of the other people who die on a daily basis, because they do not get the health care needed or are not treated with the same care as someone with money? PLEASE!

We in this country are creating our own fucking genocide with the poor.
What part of this is okay?

I am just so heartbroken by the ignorance of some people. When you are so ignorant and callous - you are creating a great hurt!

[The_Lady_Snow]

RIP Roger you were an amazing human being.

[Dominique]

Originally Posted by JAGG

The people who invested with Enron are victims of a crime. Innocent victims who didn't have a clue . Yes they should be helped any way possible. This is not even on the same spectrum as the person who opted not to be prepared for an accident or illness.
Someone who chooses not to protect themselves or prepare for something in advance is not a victim. They knew the risk they chose to take it and it back fired. Not a victim they are a volunteer. You choose the behavior you choose the consequences. Not taxpayers responsibilty to bail you out because you chose to do the wrong thing. That's life. You live with the desicions you make. Suffer through the consequences and you will be apt to make better choices in the future. You want to dance you have to pay the fiddler. If you don't get car insurance and your car is stolen, you think taxpapers should buy you a new car? Not my responsibility its yours. That's not fair to the people who do the right thing. That's rewarding bad behavoir enabling it. Why would anyone pay for insurance and prepare for a disaster if they can be bailed out when they don't. If are saying I should pay to rescue you from your lame choices, then I should get to have a say in what choices you make. I'm not going to forkover my hard earned money so it can be pissed away on your next bad choice. If I have to pay the band I get to pick the music. That is how I feel about. . We will just have to agree to disagree. I respect your view, I understand it, but I don't agree.

Wow! I hope you never become sick, seriously sick. I'm afraid you are going to have an eye opener. Karma is a crazy thing.

Moving along thru this crazy post of yours. What tax are we paying that reimburses an under or uninsured auto owner for vehical theft? I live in the same state you are from, one of the MOST HEAVILY TAXED STATES in America, and I am not aware of this tax? Are you referring to uninsured motorist protection coverage? Isn't that for collision on your OWN
vehical?

Have you seen the unemployment lines for people waiting to apply for 100 available positions? Maybe you live underneath a rock (I sometimes think I do) However, I am very aware of what this Occupy Wall Street movement is all about. You sound like a Tea Party person.

WoW. Just Wow.

[JustJo]

I haven't read the entire thread yet, so please excuse me if I miss a point or something....but....I have to say that I think there is a middle ground when it comes to personal responsibility.

I am all for helping people out who are hit by a tornado, lose their job, get driven out of business by the WalMarts of the world, etc.

Yes, shit happens...and no one can be prepared for everything. There should be a safety net, and it should be adequate so that people can live with dignity.

However....I see a whole lot of people who fail to take personal responsibility when they can and then want everyone else to bail them out...and that frosts my cookies.

I work with a whole lot of people who make a good living....don't bother to save anything in their 401k because they'd rather spend it on a new car every year, and then whine that social security won't be enough to support them in a 20 year retirement. Really?

I live in an area (and bought a short sale house from a perfect example) where lots and lots of people went crazy pulling money out of their homes on home equity loans to buy toys....boats, RVs, fishing gear, 4 wheelers, electronic goodies....and then wanted the rest of us to bail them out when the bubble burst and they owed more on their homes than they could afford to pay each month, or more than the house was worth. Really?

I'm not talking about people who get sick, get shafted on their jobs, get preyed upon by predatory lenders....I'm talking about people who make piss poor choices, and then cry that they got a raw deal and want the government (i.e. your wallet and mine) to bail them out.

Like Jagg, that bothers me.
Yes, shit happens that people can't deal with...and they should be helped. But not everyone who's crying foul got dealt a bad hand either....they just got greedy, took a gamble, and lost.

[JAGG]

How did I guess somehow Id be misuderstood. Taken out of context etc... I have plenty of epathy. And I also would give the shirt off my back to a total stranger and have, and would do it everyday gladly. I never expect anyone to do anything I wouldn't do myself. I have sevral very close family members who are disabled . I have plenty of epathy. I know exactly how it feels to lose everythng and have to start again. I have done twice in my life. I feel if you are in a situation because of your own laziness or poor choices or stupidity and then want to be bailed out I am totally 100 percent against that and always will be. If something happens to you which is not your fault, totally out of your control hell ya we should have programs in place to help you.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by JAGG

How did I guess somehow Id be misuderstood. Taken out of context etc... I have plenty of epathy. And I also would give the shirt off my back to a total stranger and have, and would do it everyday gladly. I never expect anyone to do anything I wouldn't do myself. I have sevral very close family members who are disabled . I have plenty of epathy. I know exactly how it feels to lose everythng and have to start again. I have done twice in my life. I feel if you are in a situation because of your own laziness or poor choices or stupidity and then want to be bailed out I am totally 100 percent against that and always will be. If something happens to you which is not your fault, totally out of your control hell ya we should have programs in place to help you.

A question, then: how many people do you think, who are currently in the midst of foreclosure, have had foreclosure, are out of work, have no savings, in dire need of help and have none, are those who made poor or "stupid" choices?