Proposed Mosque Near Ground Zero

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by paposeco

I'm thinking you must be jesting. "trivial bits of information." ?? are you being funny/sarcastic?

No I was actually very serious......laughin....

seriously I was being sarcastic.....msdemeanor and I are old lefty friends.........


besides...........in this crowd had I been serious my ass would be flaming big time...........laughin

[paposeco]

Originally Posted by Toughy

No I was actually very serious......laughin....

seriously I was being sarcastic.....msdemeanor and I are old lefty friends.........


besides...........in this crowd had I been serious my ass would be flaming big time...........laughin

from one leftyto another...I'm glad you were being "seriously...sarcastic", and not sarcastly serious...lol

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by paposeco

from one leftyto another...I'm glad you were being "seriously...sarcastic", and not sarcastly serious...lol

Hey, we can count on Toughy for this.... way serious informed, lefty. Sometimes I get so crazed by what is going on, a little humor of any kind helps!

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by paposeco

ahhh...thank God, for a minute there....lol.

I know that there are 'radicals', nut-jobs, of every kind, case and point--->right-wingnut-christians! These folks do and have done more damage than any Mosque anywhere will ever do.

If we say NO! to the building of the Mosque, then we must say NO! to any Church being built anywhere (following the nut-bags' logic), because Lord knows how much death and destruction has been been committed and sanctioned by the "Christians". (read some books on the history of the Christian movement). I used to call myself a Christian, but these radicalChristians, give God/Christ a bad name. If they're really CHRISTians, why are they being so UN-Christ like.
Here's the deal, they are NOT CHRISTians, if they were, they would look more like CHRIST, instead of a bunch of fear and hate mongers.
So you see, there are nut-jobs of every faith, not just the Muslims or someone else we don't agree with. Don't just swallow what people tell you, not even FOX & FREAKS, Palin...etc, use the brain the good Lord gave you. Think for yourself, reason, educate yourself, discuss, be open minded..there are other points of view just as valid as yours, perhaps (if you humble yourself) more so. Why do these self-righteous people(fear&hate mongers) think God died and left themin charge of every body's life, when they can't even manage their own hypocrisy.
I say, let the Muslims have their building.
The rest of you Palins and Becks and Rushs..go get some humility and look up the word HYPOCRISY. And instead of proclaiming that YOU are a CHRISTIAN, how about actually LIVING AND ACTING LIKE A CHRISTian.

Personally, I believe we have enough churches of every type and would love to see more schools, hospitals, etc. being built. I am spiritual and have some left over churchy-stuff and honor anyone's religion, but, as one GOP congressperson said.. COME ON! Yes, I'm being a smartass. Sometimes the tax breaks relgious organizations and churches get, plus the amount of private funds thrown their way and the state of our social services, I get really pissed.

I am so tired of the ME, ME, MINE set of so many in the US.

[AtLast]

Just mulling something over...

Would there be a difference to the anti-Islamic factions, if the planned prayer room (it is NOT a Mosque!!) were taken out of the equation? Just a community center for Muslim folks, without a room designated for prayer? Frankly, I think not. This BS would have been the same if the proposed plans did not have this as part of the construction goals.

Also, I have taken part in many events, etc. in community centers of all kinds. Some religious, some not. Most have some kind of prayer room in them, and many are non-sectarian- just a room for quiet contemplation and some privacy. Even in centers that were built by a particular religion, prayer rooms were open for anyone of any religion (or none) to use. Hospitals with no religious ties also have such rooms or chapels which are open to all.

Frankly, most types of municipal community-based organizational structures have to follow codes and ordinances based within their municipality and cannot stop anyone from using their facilities as long as dues, etc. are paid and rules followed. A Catholic or Baptist can utilize gym equipment, rent facilities for an event, etc. in a community center of another faith.

Hummmmm... I have given myself some more homework as to finding out if in fact this prayer room would be open to any person, including non-Muslims (having a quiet, meditative space in a large noisy city is a good thing for any of us, I believe)?

Argh... where do I look into NYC ordinances for this kind of structure and organization? Just because it is being constructed by a particular religion, does not mean it will serve only that population.

Trying to focus on the community in the community center concept, here!

[SuperFemme]

[SuperFemme]

European Islamophobia Finds A Home In The U.S.

Reza Aslan is a contributing editor at The Daily Beast. He is the author of No God But God and Beyond Fundamentalism.

You may have heard the ad put out by the National Republican Trust Political Action Committee: "On Sept. 11, they declared war against us. And to celebrate that murder of 3,000 Americans, they want to build a monstrous 13-story mosque at ground zero."

Did you catch that? They attacked us on 9/11, and now they want to build a mosque at ground zero.

This is what has become of the debate over the construction of an Islamic community center in Lower Manhattan. You know, the so-called mosque at ground zero that's neither a mosque nor at ground zero.

No matter what your feelings are about the proposed community center, there can be little doubt that Islamophobia is on the rise in America.
A Washington Post poll released last year found that nearly half of Americans — 48 percent — have an unfavorable view of Islam. That's nine points higher than in the months after the Sept. 11 attacks. A new national survey by the Pew Research Center found that 30 percent of those who disapprove of President Obama's job performance believe he is Muslim.

What's more disturbing is that anti-Muslim sentiment seems to have gone mainstream, with fringe groups like Stop Islamization of America — which is behind many of the protests in lower Manhattan and has been participating in similar anti-Muslim rallies across the country — suddenly receiving regular air time on mainstream media outlets.

Stop Islamization of America is actually an affiliate of a European organization called Stop Islamization of Europe, an anti-Muslim hate group whose motto is "Racism is the lowest form of human stupidity, but Islamophobia is the height of common sense."

The connection between the two organizations is telling.
In Europe, the passage of laws curtailing the rights and freedoms of Muslims and the success of avowedly anti-Islam political parties have led to a sense of marginalization and disenfranchisement among Europe's Muslim communities. That in turn has led to what I believe is a sharp increase in radicalization among Europe's young Muslims.

For years, scholars like myself who've studied these radicalization trends have confidently argued that the kind of institutionalized Islamophobia one sees in large parts of Europe could never take hold in the U.S. That America's unbreakable dedication to religious liberties would never allow anti-Muslim sentiment to become mainstream. That, in fact, America's Muslim community — educated, prosperous, moderate and integrated into every level of American society — may be our nation's greatest weapon in fighting the ideology of radical extremism.

It seems we were wrong. The same kind of Islamophobia that has made much of Europe inhospitable to its Muslim citizens is now threatening to seize the U.S.

he fear is that this may lead to the same kind of radicalization among Muslim youth in the U.S. that we've seen in Europe. It has already played into the hands of al-Qaida, which has for years been trying to convince American Muslims that the unfettered religious freedoms they enjoy is a mirage — that the U.S. will eventually turn against its Muslim citizens. Are we in danger of proving al-Qaida right?

I am a liberal, progressive, secularized American Muslim. But when I see that bigotry against my faith — my very identity — has become so commonplace in America that it is shaping into a wedge issue for the midterm elections, I can barely control my anger.

I can't imagine how the next generation of American Muslim youth will react to such provocations. I pray that we never find out.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=129381552

[Jude]

Atlasthome,
Whether or not there is a prayer hall (of course there will be) isn't the issue. The scared folks who've watched too much Fox news are terrified that these folks are going to use their community meeting rooms to plan attacks on innocent Americans.

To answer your question, however, a mosque prayer hall is open to anyone at all so long as they observe proper Islamic etiquette, i.e., women covering their hair and dressed modestly and men observing the Islamic dress code for their gender. In fact, I'm sure anyone would be welcomed and given a free Quran for their visit :-).

Did you know that travelers in other countries stop overnight in mosques sometimes. Nobody asks if they are Muslim. People even stop in to have an afternoon nap on the carpets without raising an eye brow.

Sad fact is that our media has inundated us with a lot of B.S. about one of the world's major religions -- made these folks out to be terrorists and Al Qada sympathizers. How soon we forget about the Christian Crusades and the Inquisition and the persecution of the Jews of Europe, of course.

It's unlikely that we shall have the whole and accurate story of what happened on 911 in any of our lifetimes.

Take away the constitutional rights of one faction of people in America and rest assured that there's no going to be a lot of empathy for the rights demanded by gay people.

[Toughy]

The scared folks who've watched too much Fox news are terrified that these folks are going to use their community meeting rooms to plan attacks on innocent Americans.

Once upon a time, long ago, on another website, at a Bash, there was an announced POC only gathering.. No non-POC allowed including non-POC partners of POCs...........in other words...........no white folk allowed....

ya would have thought the POC only gathering had a specific purpose to plot, plan and implement the take-over of the entire website, plus the entire world. Why arent us whitey allowed? What are you gonna talk about whitey can't hear? OMG you are planning to kill all white folk and take over the world !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

dang............POC got together and the fucking world continued to turn and global climate change did not hesitate in it's march toward disastrous change for all human beings........... including those rich mother fucking white men who control money...........

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Jude

Atlasthome,
Whether or not there is a prayer hall (of course there will be) isn't the issue. The scared folks who've watched too much Fox news are terrified that these folks are going to use their community meeting rooms to plan attacks on innocent Americans.

To answer your question, however, a mosque prayer hall is open to anyone at all so long as they observe proper Islamic etiquette, i.e., women covering their hair and dressed modestly and men observing the Islamic dress code for their gender. In fact, I'm sure anyone would be welcomed and given a free Quran for their visit :-).

Did you know that travelers in other countries stop overnight in mosques sometimes. Nobody asks if they are Muslim. People even stop in to have an afternoon nap on the carpets without raising an eye brow.

Sad fact is that our media has inundated us with a lot of B.S. about one of the world's major religions -- made these folks out to be terrorists and Al Qada sympathizers. How soon we forget about the Christian Crusades and the Inquisition and the persecution of the Jews of Europe, of course.

It's unlikely that we shall have the whole and accurate story of what happened on 911 in any of our lifetimes.

Take away the constitutional rights of one faction of people in America and rest assured that there's no going to be a lot of empathy for the rights demanded by gay people.

Thank you so much for this information!

I have been thinking a lot about this (why I posted earlier) because there are many centers that have a specific religious afiliation that are open to all. And it seems to me that requiring respect and observance to the religion at hand is just not a big deal and is usual and customary. Way back as a Catholic student involved in Newman Center organizations on college campuses, the prayer room or someties called a chapel was open to anyone visiting our center. We also had accomodations for overnight travelers, too. They didn't have to be Catholic at all.

These centers were far more liberal than regular Catholic parishes, but the idea was about community interaction within and outside of the catholic faith. There were requirements then, too, but many of the prior kinds of things like women having to cover their heads during a Mass were no longer observed and women were deacons and alter girls. Not the church of my parents and grandparents! Actually, there are many, many traditional Catholic rituals and requirements of women in the past that don't differ much from some of what a woman would be subjected to in an Islamic mosque. I don't agree with any of this with either religion (it's about patriarchal tenets for me), but, what is important here is the fact that a center such as this with a prayer room is open to anyone of any faith- or those not having a faith at all.

Gee, kind of knocks the whacko's fear of all those Islamic people gathering without the rest of us being allowed in to plot against us, doesn't it?

Thanks, again.

[Jude]

Hmmmmm, Baptist extremists can be fairly daunting too, ya' know.

The little cosmic joke is that Islam and Judaism are fundamentally the same Abrahamic faith. The only real differences are that Muslims acknowledge Jesus (Issa) as a prophet and messiah (not the son of G/d) and consider, of course, Prophet Muhammed as a genuine prophet. Basically the same laws govern both faiths and neither faith gives more rights to women than another. Christianity, of course, is also an Abrahamic faith at its core and women are admonished to "keep silent in the church". So, in which faith (as it is generally practiced) does a woman stand the best chance? Probably the answer would be none of the above.

Nonetheless, we must respect the right of people to make their own choices as to their beliefs and interpretation, so long as they don't directly affect our own right to liberty.

If one chooses to bow down to Humpty Dumpty and their life is more meaningful having done so, G/d bless 'em. Just don't force me to follow suit.

[FeminineAllure]

Originally Posted by paposeco

ahhh...thank God, for a minute there....lol.

I know that there are 'radicals', nut-jobs, of every kind, case and point--->right-wingnut-christians! These folks do and have done more damage than any Mosque anywhere will ever do.

If we say NO! to the building of the Mosque, then we must say NO! to any Church being built anywhere (following the nut-bags' logic), because Lord knows how much death and destruction has been been committed and sanctioned by the "Christians". (read some books on the history of the Christian movement). I used to call myself a Christian, but these radicalChristians, give God/Christ a bad name. If they're really CHRISTians, why are they being so UN-Christ like.
Here's the deal, they are NOT CHRISTians, if they were, they would look more like CHRIST, instead of a bunch of fear and hate mongers.
So you see, there are nut-jobs of every faith, not just the Muslims or someone else we don't agree with. Don't just swallow what people tell you, not even FOX & FREAKS, Palin...etc, use the brain the good Lord gave you. Think for yourself, reason, educate yourself, discuss, be open minded..there are other points of view just as valid as yours, perhaps (if you humble yourself) more so. Why do these self-righteous people(fear&hate mongers) think God died and left themin charge of every body's life, when they can't even manage their own hypocrisy.
I say, let the Muslims have their building.
The rest of you Palins and Becks and Rushs..go get some humility and look up the word HYPOCRISY. And instead of proclaiming that YOU are a CHRISTIAN, how about actually LIVING AND ACTING LIKE A CHRISTian.

I am so tired that I must respond to all of your interpretations regarding
this threads topic when I find more time.
I will say you seem to be generalizing many groups of different peoples.
And of course being Bipolar The words "nut-jobs" and "nut-bags" jumped right off your post at me since I abhor those words.
Do you feel you are living and acting as a Christian? Or a "fear and hate" monger yourself in this post?

"be open minded..there are other points of view just as valid as yours, perhaps (if you humble yourself) more so." I look forward to your open mindedness when I post.

[paposeco]

Originally Posted by FeminineAllure

I am so tired that I must respond to all of your interpretations regarding
this threads topic when I find more time.
I will say you seem to be generalizing many groups of different peoples.
And of course being Bipolar The words "nut-jobs" and "nut-bags" jumped right off your post at me since I abhor those words.
Do you feel you are living and acting as a Christian? Or a "fear and hate" monger yourself in this post?

"be open minded..there are other points of view just as valid as yours, perhaps (if you humble yourself) more so." I look forward to your open mindedness when I post.

I was not 'generalizing' about anything or anyone. There are, like I said, crazy people(by choice, because they choose not educate themselves), that do hateful things, and the said people come all in types, yes, I did reffer to them as 'nut-jobs', (that is what they are, they weren't born with it, they choose to be ignorant to the point of hate and violence) I think it's one good description, for that segment of folks, surely they are not rational! I did not know that you are bipolar, my thread was in no way meant to offend you nor anyone else on this site. There are too many words that may offend a lot of people for various reasons, our expression here on this post or any other, would be rather limited, if we had to check with everyone to make sure that this word or that didn't "offend" someone. I've read things on this very post that have rubbed me the wrong way, but hey..it's freedom of speech/expression.
I am sorry you are bipolar, but I in no way meant to hurt or disrespect YOU or any other. Now, as far as me being a Christian, (I do the best I can with God's help, even with all my faults I try to be aware of my words and actions, but you can't please everybody)..but generally speaking that is between me and God! I'm sure you may have reason to question your own spirituality from time to time, but that likewise is your business. As for humbling myself, thanks,... I'll take that into consideration, in the light of your open minded response to my point of view.
Know this one thing for sure, I am the last person that you will find being a "fear and hate monger"! I have too many times been a victim of this crap to pass it on to anyone else!! I'm glad that you are 'looking forward' to my 'open mindeness'..when you or Anyone Else posts. I do not believe I've disrespected anyone here, not intentionally. I'm sorry if my words upset you, or triggered something. My words were not meant to hurt, like everyone else on this post, I was just adding my own two cents by stating the truth about some people, be they christian, muslim, catholic, or what have you. In a nut-shell (excuse me)I was speaking about intolerance as a whole. It was not an attack on you. You have the right to your opinion, without being scolded for expressing it right? well so does everybody else.
This is a democracy, if there are folks here that were offended by me and my opinion, please let me know. I realize that most if not all of you don't know me, I was just expressing my opinion, like the rest of you...but if you find that what I've written was offensive, "hateful and fear mongering"..than let me know and I'll be gone from this thread. Thanks. . posts

[FeminineAllure]

Originally Posted by FeminineAllure

I am so tired that I must respond to all of your interpretations regarding
this threads topic when I find more time.
I will say you seem to be generalizing many groups of different peoples.
And of course being Bipolar The words "nut-jobs" and "nut-bags" jumped right off your post at me since I abhor those words.
Do you feel you are living and acting as a Christian? Or a "fear and hate" monger yourself in this post?

"be open minded..there are other points of view just as valid as yours, perhaps (if you humble yourself) more so." I look forward to your open mindedness when I post.

I find it interesting that you assume I am overtly triggered by certain words yet you seem triggered by your own words thinking it was I that was using them when they were quoted from your own posts.

"Do you feel you are living and acting as a Christian? Or a "fear and hate" monger yourself in this post?

"be open minded..there are other points of view just as valid as yours, perhaps (if you humble yourself) more so." I look forward to your open mindedness when I post."

The above is your own thoughts I quoted in my last post.

And no, I do not think IMO that a Proposed Mosque Near Ground Zero is appropriate. And I try not to be a hypocrite and live my life like a Christian.

[FeminineAllure]

I think it would be nice to have a space for all beliefs and religions to come together to spend time. A tribute to all faiths of those who were killed as well as their family members. It would bring people together rather than seperate them.

[The_Lady_Snow]

So where can Muslims go that is gonna be OK for all Christian folks?

I mean come on FA why can't this Community Center be built near Ground Zero?

Would it be better had it been a Christian church? Why can't the citizens MUSLIM citizens of New York have a place to go, I am confused can you explain why you think this is not ok?

Thanks in advance

[Rook]

I found this to be Very true, and thought provoking...

Two blocks is enough to generate controversy. But then it occurred to me: that's in Manhattan, which is a terrifically diverse place, both ethnically and religiously. It has large populations of Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Sikhs and "people of the Muslim faith" as Some call them (I am going to go ahead and just call them Muslims.) So as to why someone might want to build a mosque down there, well, there's probably a need.

But then I started thinking: If the WTC "sacred ground" extends for a few blocks from the actual site, what else might be down there to offend the sensibilities of, say, Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck? For instance, there's a Ground Zero Hookah bar. A Ground Zero Irish pub. A Ground Zero strip club called "New York Dolls" (Not that I knew that; I looked it up on Google Maps. Swear to god.)

There are Ground Zero hot-dog carts, Ground Zero Starbucks (how could there not be?), Ground Zero cigarette stores, and even a Ground Zero shop called "Carrot Top Pastries," which I assume isn't endorsed by THAT Carrot Top, or that would be an abomination. An abomination against good taste.

All this, just blocks from Ground Zero. Now, if you are actually AT Ground Zero, you find a Ground Zero pawn shop, A Ground Zero Chinese restaurant called Hoyip, the Ground Zero hair dresser and a Ground Zero Burger King.

All of them cutting hair, pawning jewelry and clogging American arteries without a hint of controversy.

So let me suggest two reasons why we would not have a national referendum on the mosque (actually a community center).. The first is the oft-referenced freedom of religion, and that's a pretty good reason. The second is property rights: people have the right to, more or less, do whatever they want with the property they own, as long as it is within the law (which appears to be true of the mosque).

The idea that I would have a vote on a private party doing what they have the right to do strikes me as inherently un-American.
What if we all had a vote on guns? Not on the right of gun ownership, but on which individuals could own guns.
Believe me, I know a few gun owners who, if I only had the vote...
And of course I don't, because that would be ridiculous. You know what else is ridiculous? The controversy surrounding the Ground Zero mosque. Those opposed to the mosque frame the argument in terms of respecting the sensibilities of the victims' families, and to the hallowed ground that still to this day is an undeveloped plot of land (if you're looking for a real controversy).
But let us stop pretending and call this "controversy" what it is: a xenophobic, bigoted attack on the religion of over a billion people, 37,000 of whom live in Manhattan: those "of the Muslim faith."

Thomas Strodtbeck
Liverpool, United Kingdom
(Formerly of Athens)

[Toughy]

FA......

It is NOT a Mosque. It is a Community Center that also has a prayer room. It's called the Cordoba House.

How is that inappropriate, considering the number of strip joints and liquor stores that are closer to that 'sacred ground'?

Does that change your opinion?

[FeminineAllure]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

So where can Muslims go that is gonna be OK for all Christian folks?

I mean come on FA why can't this Community Center be built near Ground Zero?

Would it be better had it been a Christian church? Why can't the citizens MUSLIM citizens of New York have a place to go, I am confused can you explain why you think this is not ok?

Thanks in advance

I did not state that Muslims can't build their community center near Ground Zero. Or that the space would be better if it was a Christian church. I never said it was not ok. In my opinion I stated I felt that space would be *better used as a place for *all faiths and religions* to be able to go to* pay tribute being so close to Ground Zero. And if it was a Christian space available or any other religion I would feel the same way.
I hold nothing personal against Musilims or any other religion Lady Snow. Or do I think any religion is better than any other one.
I hope I clarified my thoughts better this time.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by FeminineAllure

I did not state that Muslims can't build their community center near Ground Zero. Or that the space would be better if it was a Christian church. I never said it was not ok. In my opinion I stated I felt that space would be *better used as a place for *all faiths and religions* to be able to go to* pay tribute being so close to Ground Zero. And if it was a Christian space available or any other religion I would feel the same way.
I hold nothing personal against Musilims or any other religion Lady Snow. Or do I think any religion is better than any other one.
I hope I clarified my thoughts better this time.

Why though?

Why can't Muslim's have this place to go to? Why can't there be a Community Center built so close?

What is your reasoning?

Truly curious, thanks in advance