Reclaiming Lesbian Pride

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Martina

i have seen that too. Or about any issue around women. It was not my intent to shut down discussion of lesbian identity or to divert it to a discussion of transphobia. i probably could have made all my points without saying that. i am sure it is part of the mix of motivations for some folks who use this rhetoric because it is explicitly said. Not here. i agree with you.

i am not saying that there aren't many other reasons to experience lesbian ID as challenged. i hate defending myself, but on the dash site, i spent a lot of time and energy trying to end the lesbian bashing that was tolerated for so long there.

In any case, i agree with the moderators that parsing this out is probably the work of another thread.

Re the assumption of lesbian = woman loving woman, i gotta say that on this site, that IS excluding folk. i guess we know that.

So, if lesbian does not mean 'woman loving woman' then what does lesbian mean? Does lesbian include an FTM who loves women? Does it include a cisgendered male who loves women? If the term includes the former then why does the term not include the latter? Does it include a cross-dressing man who 'feels like a woman' when convenient but keeps his heterosexual male identity for career purposes? Does it include a homophobic cisgendered heterosexual man who says "I'm a lesbian, we both love women, yuk yuk"? If not, why does it include the FTM but not any of the cisgendered men?

I fear that this construction points us toward "well, if I like what you stand for then your identity is what you say it is but if I don't like what you stand for then your identity isn't what you say it is". It might just be me but I think that kind of stance lives in the same ethical neighborhood as plain old-fashions, down-home bigotry.

Cheers
Aj

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

I don't think anyone here fits any particular stereotype nor do I think one needs to fit them in order to have a place within a community. I don't fit the stereotype of either a lesbian or a black lesbian. Yet, I claim lesbian as part of my identity. This discussion illustrates the problem with identity politics. In fact, it illustrates both problems with IdPol and why I would love to see the queer community abandon it. the first problem is that identity politics, whatever utility it might have, is an invitation to a kind of hair-splitting, micro-parsing of language that obfuscates more than it illuminates. What I'm seeing happen now is that *because* identity has been used to exclude, we've decided that now identity (labels) are the problem. The issue, of course, is that we don't really abandon labels or qualifying our views based upon this or that sociological category. So in pursuit of not being boxed in by labels we've gone the other direction. It's not just 'lesbian doesn't encompass me' (if that is the stance one is taking) but "as a fat-positive, female-identified, black, butch geekgirl, I find labels restricting so I reject <insert label I've decided I don't want applied to me here>." The problem with this is that it is incoherent as I've tried to point out. If our identities are so fluid that anyone can assert any identity they wish and everyone else is obliged to simply go with it out of a misguided sense of 'respect' then we have no basis for claiming that Rush Limbaugh has no business critiquing this or that aspect of black American life--unless we're going to just drop all pretense to fairness and admit that identity is fluid and self-claiming unless, of course, the person claiming an identity is someone we dislike or disagree with or otherwise find disagreeable. If we're going to do that--and to take the strong form of 'your identity is what you say it is' you pretty much have to--then we should at least be willing to be honest that our position is just as bigoted as that which we rail against with all justification. Anything else pretty much falls apart of its own weight.

The second problem with identity politics is that it invites us to engage in oppression Olympics. By that I mean that if Heart and I disagree whichever one of us hits the "you're being oppressive" button fastest wins the argument. For not-entirely-bad reasons, four or five decades ago, the idea was put forth that if a white man and a black man were talking about race in America, fair-minded listeners could prove their fair-mindedness by giving more weight to the black man than the white man. The downside--the unintended consequence--is that now whichever speaker gets to "you're the oppressor" first wins the argument. It doesn't matter if their actual argument is so full of holes that Swiss cheese looks like a block of granite in comparison, if I get there first then you lose. So even in this discussion, we see a jockeying to determine which group is being oppressed. We are all so concerned about being labeled the oppressor that we--as a community--have avoided conversations that, quite honestly, have needed to be brought out into the open for the better part of a decade.

A number of lesbians--on a site named Butch Femme Planet, mind you--have expressed feeling like outsiders or strangers in their own community. When a butch lesbian, on a site ostensibly about building community around butch and femme identity--feels like an outsider or a stranger in her own land, then we should all probably stop and take notice. It means that somehow, in some way, something has gone terribly, terribly wrong. Like some other women-identified butches have expressed, I feel like a stranger in my own land. As I've put it to my wife on a number of occasions, I feel like woman-identified butches are viewed as children of a lesser goddess. Yet to say so is to invite accusations of transphobia--even though such an accusation would be, in my case, patently ludicrous.

I do not have a solution for this, I'm simply trying to point out the uncomfortable dynamics at work.

Cheers
Aj

Thank you for answering. I get what you are saying.

Maybe having these discussions makes us feel left out. For myself, maybe I am a bit bitter from all the discussions and expectations over the years.

My question here is....why are we only upset that Butch Lesbians don't feel accepted of like they have a place? I agree 100% its been a problem for a long time (maybe always) and I am not trying to play Opression Olympics.

I want to feel proud.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

There are stereotypes about every ethnic, racial, cultural and sexual ID. Most are untrue, and some of those stereotypes exist in opposition to other, equally well known stereotypes. For instance, Jewish people have often been stereotyped as cheap skinflints. Conversely, Jewish people are also stereotyped as giving large sums of money to causes important to them. Are either or neither of these things true? Are either of these stereotypes more true of Jews than of any other minority? Most importantly, do Jews regularly disavow their heritage if they don't fit into known stereotypes?

Why is it so easy for us to say, 'Well I/she/they can't be lesbian because I/she/they don't wear flannel and Birkenstocks/hate men/ride a motorcycle to the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival, etc.? (Full disclosure- I've never owned Birkenstocks, but I have once ridden my motorcycle to Mich-fest. It was the year that the Seps tried to oust the Leatherdykes, but that's another post.) Why do we allow others to define this essential part of who we are based on a collection of stereotypes which may or may not be outdated and irrelevant? Is there some perfect andro-lesbian with an, ummm, magic wand, running around conferring twoo lesbian status on the anointed few who fit every stereotype?

Of the lesbians in my circles who are not b-f or leatherdykes, each and every one of them still fail to conform to the perfect lesbian stereotype in at least one way. Do they also have to question whether they're a twoo lesbian? And why do we care whether or not another lesbian thinks we're lesbian enough anyway?

Why are we, seemingly alone amongst all the other minorities, so ready to throw each other and ourselves out of the lesbian club? These questions have been bothering me for the 28 or more years that I've been an out lesbian.

Point taken !!!

I have never fit in and its dumb that I expect to now.

Am I a Lesbian yes. Am I proud I love Women? Hell yes!

ps. I am confused about what we are and are not supposed to be discussing here, so if this is not it it is because I am confused.

[BullDog]

There are a number of lesbians here in this community who date and partner with males/male identified people. As far as I know they all identify as women.

Recently there were a couple of cases of men masquerading as lesbians, running online blogs. That really outraged me. To me that is appropriation.

Those two scenarios aren't even remotely the same. I get that there is the danger of appropriation but I don't think that was what anyone was talking about earlier- where lesbian means anything or can be appropriated and that no one cares.

As a butch lesbian I most certainly have felt like a stranger and as a woman identified butch as a child of a lesser god in BF commnities. However, it is also true that this is a mixed gender community and that different gender identities have relationships with both the identity of lesbian as well as real world life experience with lesbian communities.

I am a woman. Yes that's important for me to talk about in the Lesbian Zone, but I am also taking into account the social context of the community here.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Thank you for answering. I get what you are saying.

Maybe having these discussions makes us feel left out. For myself, maybe I am a bit bitter from all the discussions and expectations over the years.

My question here is....why are we only upset that Butch Lesbians don't feel accepted of like they have a place? I agree 100% its been a problem for a long time (maybe always) and I am not trying to play Opression Olympics.

I want to feel proud.

I don't think we're only upset about it when butch lesbians don't feel accepted or have a place. I think that it is a point of discussion *here* because I think that butch lesbians are the canaries in the lesbian coalmine. The issue is focusing on lesbians and lesbian identity because one would think that on a butch-femme site lesbians would at least feel welcome and not feel like interlopers.

Cheers
Aj

[BullDog]

One other quick thought on the issue of appropriation. I think lesbian is still often quite the dirty word in BF circles so I don't see those who don't really identify as one wanting to appropriate it. I don't see that as a real problem. Maybe I am missing something.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

I don't think we're only upset about it when butch lesbians don't feel accepted or have a place. I think that it is a point of discussion *here* because I think that butch lesbians are the canaries in the lesbian coalmine. The issue is focusing on lesbians and lesbian identity because one would think that on a butch-femme site lesbians would at least feel welcome and not feel like interlopers.

Cheers
Aj

Laugh....yes, one would think that...but it continues to be an issue for all of us!

It has always been a shock to me that being a Butch or Femme Lesbian is so out on the lunatic fringe.

I need to really work on reclaiming my joy.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by BullDog

One other quick thought on the issue of appropriation. I think lesbian is still often quite the dirty word in BF circles so I don't see those who don't really identify as one wanting to appropriate it. I don't see that as a real problem. Maybe I am missing something.

Is Dis-appropriating a word?

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by BullDog

One other quick thought on the issue of appropriation. I think lesbian is still often quite the dirty word in BF circles so I don't see those who don't really identify as one wanting to appropriate it. I don't see that as a real problem. Maybe I am missing something.

Yes! Way back when I joined the Dash site in 1999 I remember a discussion that went on for several weeks about how the Butch/Femme dance and "Lesbianism" were 2 different things based on our brand of power exchange.

I don't think it's so far out in space that there has existed a historical rift in the identity politics of Lesbians and people who only identify as Butch or Femme. Given the history of how some Butches and Femmes have felt marginalized in Lesbian communities, I can see why some folks would shrug off a Lesbian identity.

In my head, Lesbians are women who fuck and are attracted to other women. Sometimes it's also a political identity that has nothing to do with sex but mostly does encompass attraction between women. In my head, it is redundant on a Butch/Femme website to have a "Lesbian" zone unless that Lesbian zone is being parsed out for politics sake. I have said multiple times, this entire website is a Lesbian zone.

I get the desire for women to have space that is women-oriented. I get the desire to have space that is specifically designed to house Lesbian issues. I support that!

I think that Butch/Femme identity politics have evolved over the years and we are a decidedly more Queer space than we were back in the 50's. I don't think that's a bad thing. I also don't think it's a bad thing to keep hold of that sacred space for women-centric, women-defined, women-governed space. (not only "not a bad thing" but deeply necessary)

[Heart]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Any suggestions on how those of us who are older and have never been accepted by the Lesbian community (though we definitely qualify, but don't look like we do) can find community and regain our sense of Pride?

I'm older and other than a few dopes, I have never felt unaccepted by the lesbian community at large. Granted, I was not out as a femme until 2000, and I'm in NY, a pretty diverse queer community.

I don't experience some big monolithic lesbian community from which I am excluded, nor do I have expectations about how I should be embraced. Apoc - you asked how those who do not "fit the stereotype" can be accepted... but perhaps your belief in a lesbian stereotype is part of the problem... are you excluding yourself? Are you allowing the dictates of a few to determine your space? Or your pride?

But if we want to play this out -- what I see as the stumbling block in the decades-long struggles within lesbian/queer women's communities about who belongs/who doesn't, what the criteria is, who get's marginalized, etc is... (I bet you can guess what I'm going to say)... the reality of institutionalized patriarchy and the internalized sexism and misogyny that results among women. Lesbians, as women who were visibly violating the patriarchy were marginalized. They banded together, closing ranks against patriarchal (read male) influence and control. That was a necessary reaction to patriarchy - being outlaws means being clear about who is safe and who isn't. The internalized part is where those lesbians were suspicious of other lesbians who appeared to embody anything they deemed patriarchal - like any amount of femininity, or too much masculinity, or penetrative sex, for example.

We've come quite a distance from some of these limitations, but it's like a rubber-band -- it stretches, then snaps back, then stretches again. The thing that concerns me is when we fight each other at the expense of fighting patriarchy, sexism, misogyny, racism, classism, etc. This brings us full circle to the issue of diversity, solidarity, allyship, building bridges, and inclusivity. My biggest concern about what happened in the BV organization is that they deleted "feminism" from their mission statement. In no way can any queer organization speak for lesbians, butch women, women of color, transwomen or any women if they are not clear about their feminist principles.

I'm rambling... and I realize I'm off the topic of lesbian pride...

Heart

[OS Butch]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Some people regard the term female = sex and woman = gender.

There are definitely butches who define as female, but not as women. I defined that way for many years and know quite a many butch who still does. Here the term woman is seen as being connected to a social construct, rather than it being connected to one's biology.

(Hope you were actually asking the question?)

Originally Posted by OS Butch

I was actually asking. Thanks for responding. For me, I am both, female, woman and Butch to boot! What a deal I am!

LOL! I looked at what I said that someone thanked me..... I suppose I should have written I am all 3, Female, Woman and Butch to boot! What a deal I am!
Seems I left something else out, I am a Lesbian too!

[nycfem]

And you are a most talented stained glass craftswoman!!!

Originally Posted by OS Butch

LOL! I looked at what I said that someone thanked me..... I suppose I should have written I am all 3, Female, Woman and Butch to boot! What a deal I am!
Seems I left something else out, I am a Lesbian too!

[OS Butch]

Originally Posted by nycfembbw

And you are a most talented stained glass craftswoman!!!

Awwww shucks. Thank you sweetie. See you in October

[AtLast]

I am very proud to be a lesbian. I am also proud of the expansion of queer as a concept that includes lesbianism as one cog on a wheel of great fortune in human development and personal expression.

[Toughy]

Lesbian is not my favorite word, although I am starting to like it a whole bunch more due to recent events. I always preferred dyke. I got lottsa words I resonate with:

butch dyke woman femininst pervert asshat woman-loving-woman lesbian fucker fuckee queer.........I live all those words......and I am proud to be all those words in any and all combinations. The most recent ones.....crone, elder kind of make me cringe, but I am 59 so I better get used to it ..........laughin....

[princessbelle]

I have also not used the word lesbian in years. I'm not exposed to too much where i live and what i ascertain is what i read or see on TV. I backed away from the word after i decided i didn't fit into what i was understanding how the word was being defined for me.

I shouldn't have felt that way. As most are saying here and in other threads, it is personal and there isn't a clear cut definition like i thought there was.

I agree with Toughy, due to recent events, it is now a word i am beginning to resonate to ...again.

It's good to be coming home. Lesbian pride IS a beautiful thing.

[ScandalAndy]

Thank you for your insightful response, Kobi.

I have some thoughts about this which I want to stew on a bit more before I let out, but one in particular is overwhelming me.


Pride. I've noticed in my own circles that it has become particularly passe to stand up to people. If someone says something you don't agree with you just respond with "ok whatever" and go on your merry way. I have rarely seen someone stand up and say "no, I am proud to be who i am, and this is why". There is quite a bit of fear surrounding acceptance and I think individuals are less likely to express pride in something if they feel it will alienate them from their chosen support group or social circle. This may be yet another folly of youth, which I am unfortunately subject to all too frequently, but the revelation is stunning to me this morning. This is something I will keep in the back of my mind and tumble around until it is a smooth, shiny concept. I do not want to be a "go with the flow" girl at the expense of my beliefs, no matter how many "friends" I lose.

Do you think it's an affliction of the younger generations to detest conflict so much that they avoid defending their beliefs? To me this seems VERY different from the approach taken by community members who are older than myself. Am I mistaken in this?

Originally Posted by Kobi

Interesting question. I have an initial response that might grow as I think on it more.

I think there are many ways to do this. For me, it is a multi pronged approach.

The first, is reclaiming the word lesbian for myself. I am a lesbian. I used to use qualifiers and combine terms. Not any more. How can anyone relate to lesbian if we no longer use the word or we qualify it to death? Using it gives visibility that it is still alive and well and perking right along despite what others would prefer to think.

The second, is speaking to those issues surrounding lesbianism. It is speaking up when lesbian is equated with something passe, outdated, not good enough, and all the other negaters that have been mentioned in this thread. It is reclaiming our voice, our power, and our right to be.

The third, is starting threads like this in a zone meant for us. Young folk and newbies need to see lesbians are present and accounted for. They also need to see that we, as lesbians, have similar and dissimilar issues with others under the queer umbrella. They need to see we, as lesbians, can work in concert with other queers on issues we have in common, and we can forge ahead on our own to address those issues which affect us alone.

The fourth, remembering what youth entails i.e. a time to explore and experience, try stuff on, individuals deciding what works and doesnt work for them. As someone who was raised when homosexuality was still a psychistric diagnosis, I am all for taking advantage of the freedoms and options available today! But, all us queers, still need to accept some responsibility for being available to youth who may need us to be there and be visible. We didnt evolve in a vacuum. Neither will they.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Heart

I'm older and other than a few dopes, I have never felt unaccepted by the lesbian community at large. Granted, I was not out as a femme until 2000, and I'm in NY, a pretty diverse queer community.

I don't experience some big monolithic lesbian community from which I am excluded, nor do I have expectations about how I should be embraced. Apoc - you asked how those who do not "fit the stereotype" can be accepted... but perhaps your belief in a lesbian stereotype is part of the problem... are you excluding yourself? Are you allowing the dictates of a few to determine your space? Or your pride?

But if we want to play this out -- what I see as the stumbling block in the decades-long struggles within lesbian/queer women's communities about who belongs/who doesn't, what the criteria is, who get's marginalized, etc is... (I bet you can guess what I'm going to say)... the reality of institutionalized patriarchy and the internalized sexism and misogyny that results among women. Lesbians, as women who were visibly violating the patriarchy were marginalized. They banded together, closing ranks against patriarchal (read male) influence and control. That was a necessary reaction to patriarchy - being outlaws means being clear about who is safe and who isn't. The internalized part is where those lesbians were suspicious of other lesbians who appeared to embody anything they deemed patriarchal - like any amount of femininity, or too much masculinity, or penetrative sex, for example.

We've come quite a distance from some of these limitations, but it's like a rubber-band -- it stretches, then snaps back, then stretches again. The thing that concerns me is when we fight each other at the expense of fighting patriarchy, sexism, misogyny, racism, classism, etc. This brings us full circle to the issue of diversity, solidarity, allyship, building bridges, and inclusivity. My biggest concern about what happened in the BV organization is that they deleted "feminism" from their mission statement. In no way can any queer organization speak for lesbians, butch women, women of color, transwomen or any women if they are not clear about their feminist principles.

I'm rambling... and I realize I'm off the topic of lesbian pride...

Heart

I love it when you talk about the Patriarchy!

Yes, I likely have been buying into the stereotype and maybe I need to get out more. I need to let the past go and focus on today.

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

Thank you for your insightful response, Kobi.

I have some thoughts about this which I want to stew on a bit more before I let out, but one in particular is overwhelming me.


Pride. I've noticed in my own circles that it has become particularly passe to stand up to people. If someone says something you don't agree with you just respond with "ok whatever" and go on your merry way. I have rarely seen someone stand up and say "no, I am proud to be who i am, and this is why". There is quite a bit of fear surrounding acceptance and I think individuals are less likely to express pride in something if they feel it will alienate them from their chosen support group or social circle. This may be yet another folly of youth, which I am unfortunately subject to all too frequently, but the revelation is stunning to me this morning. This is something I will keep in the back of my mind and tumble around until it is a smooth, shiny concept. I do not want to be a "go with the flow" girl at the expense of my beliefs, no matter how many "friends" I lose.

Do you think it's an affliction of the younger generations to detest conflict so much that they avoid defending their beliefs? To me this seems VERY different from the approach taken by community members who are older than myself. Am I mistaken in this?

I've been thinking about this passivity too. I think its larger than just young people.

I wonder if social media gives us more connectivity to people we might not otherwise hang with is making us less confrontational? More like we need to not upset anyone.

20 years ago I wanted to be a lesbian Separatist (until I was told no blowdryers and tweezers were allowed ) and now I am having to dig deep to say I am proud of even being a Lesbian.

[christie]

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

Do you think it's an affliction of the younger generations to detest conflict so much that they avoid defending their beliefs? To me this seems VERY different from the approach taken by community members who are older than myself. Am I mistaken in this?

Andy -

I snipped your post for brevity -

I DON'T think you are mistaken in your observations of younger generations, but I don't think that its primarily an affliction of LBGTQI youth. I believe its an affliction of youth, period.

We have a 17 (almost 18) year old son who graduated from high school in the spring. I am stunned and disappointed on a daily basis at just how apathetic he is about most things in life. Only rarely do we see him passionately engaged about his beliefs - and I think that part of it is that he is still figuring out what his beliefs are. He has been the instigator at our attending the NOM counter-rally in DC last year. He stood up for a young lady at his school on "purple day" in the midst of a buncha redneck, conservative boys. He has been open with his friends about having "gay moms" and made a point to include Jess as a parent listing in the local newspaper senior edition.

It does bother me that the only thing I have really seen him passionate/engaged about are equal rights and I often wonder if its a direct result of Jess and I having conversations that include him. I wonder if we are failing as parents to expose him to other issues so that he can further explore and define his belief system. It also bothers me that what was important to me at his age is SO far removed from what is important to me now.

I am derailing myself, but to me, you brought up a very valid point about the apathy of youth and I do think that its a very lesbian issue to me as I parent as a lesbian. Perhaps its better in a parenting forum. *shrugs*

[Jess]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

20 years ago I wanted to be a lesbian Separatist (until I was told no blowdryers and tweezers were allowed ) and now I am having to dig deep to say I am proud of even being a Lesbian.

In my early to mid twenties, I too, considered separatism as a lifestyle. I too, have gone through years of trying to figure out all of the nuances and politics involved in being a woman who loves women. I too, struggled with the arguments/dissonance of inclusivity and exclusivity surrounding and muddying our communities, as well as forcing us to grow. Guess in this way, butch and femme lesbians are not so different.

I am one who does still use the definition of "lesbian" as a woman who loves/ has sex with women". I truly do feel that anything else is an ally. While I consider that yes, as Lesbians we created a sub-culture within the larger culture of homosexuals, that "culture" is truly "ours". Those folks who find kinship with us are our allies. Because they may be totally in-tune with lesbian music/ art/ literature, does not make them lesbians. These cultural products came out of OUR struggles and OUR celebrations. Feel free to honor them, but do not feel free to appropriate them.

I totally agree with previous posters who have stated the fact that because I choose to define myself this way (in its limited definition) does not mean that I have to oppose other identities. I can be and am supportive of the struggles legal and emotional of other identities. It also does not mean I have to limit my view of what lesbian looks like.

I am a woman ( who happens to have many masculine traits). Even my way of fucking is masculine ( I am told). Does that make me not a lesbian? Does that make me less of a female/ woman? No, it doesn't. I am still a woman in all of my pain and glory and I do still claim lesbian and do still carry that badge with pride. I have never claimed queer ( other than an umbrella term) as for ME, to be queer would be me fucking other butches. I don't know if that makes sense to anyone but me. Now, this is not me knocking butch-butch or (any other sexual proclivity). What it means is for ME, as a lesbian, it would be queer( weird/odd) for me to have that attraction. If I did, I would proudly don the queer mantle! If I fucked men, I would proudly claim heterosexual. If I fucked men and women, I would proudly claim bi-sexual. This is just how I see it.

As a woman, I will NOT be told how to dress, how to behave, how to fuck. EVER. As a lesbian, I will wear a huge cock ( or not), I will fuck with passion, I will wear a hat and boots and drive a big ugly truck, I will write poetry and watch the sun fill our skies with soft pastels. I will build a shed, renovate my home, tend our garden, wash our laundry, fuss over wonderful fabrics and spoil our fur babies. I will help raise our son to hopefully be aware of feminism and help our neighbors.

I am happy to see this topic coming up and happier still to see us beginning to own our pride, in whatever identity we fall into. To say "lesbian" is passe is like saying watermelon is passe. It is still here, alive and well even though some folks prefer cantaloupe or honeydew or mangoes.