Some labels do not include trans in the definition

[Linus]

Originally Posted by Jess

Here is what I see, if I may. I see you as a strong, intelligent, masculine female/trans energy who "lives" to serve, respect and honor a strong intelligent feminine woman .

It is interesting that I bring this up. I was reading through the Femme Led Relationships and Trans/Butch Bottoms thread and picked up on the comment above by Jess. It is interesting that Weatherboi's preferred pronoun of "Hey Boy" and Identity is "Owned Boy" without mention of trans but the assumption is that he is either a masculine female or has trans energy.

Weatherboi's challenge is another form of invisibility (similar to PapaC's thread on invisibility in the Queer world): in this case, he's not seen as the man he is. Not a trans man. A man. Period.

While I may identify as a transman, not all those who transition see themselves as trans anything. I think it's something that we recognize within the community just as much as we need to see and acknowledge female-ID'd butches. It is something that I didn't realize existed until I was in a support group for "masculine spectrum" individuals who were assigned female at birth. It was there that I learned about the fact that some really do not see themselves ever as female and to suggest anything else is insulting and dismissive of them.

The same is true for some women who many would identity as a trans woman but they are anything but that.

So a question to all: do you view those that were mis-assigned the wrong gender at birth as always trans something? if so, why? would you ever view them as wholly their gender (as they should be and not assigned)?

[Jess]

Linus, I made an apology to Grant in that thread if you care to read further, explaining my "confusion" as to his gender pronoun preference. Please note that when ever possible and without confusing endings placed on nicknames, etc. I DO try as much as humanly possible to respect a persons choice of pronoun .
Grant refers to himself as trans in his opening statement in that thread had you read it entirely.

I am not trying to be disrespectful. I think for a lot of us, the multitude of preferences in what someone chooses to be called ( especially when it says "boi" here and "boy " there and trans also) is just simply confusing and not altogether an attempt at creating "invisiblity". Not all of us have had the privilege of attending such informative workshops/ support groups and may be less aware than those whom have.

Your post specifically highlighting something I wrote feels like a personal affront and I am very offended and very disappointed that you chose to "read" into it something that wasn't there to volley wanting to start a thread. Perhaps if your own issues weren't already present you would have been able to see the same inconsistencies in how I should have addressed Grant and why it was confusing for me.

To answer your question for me personally, if someone says they are a man, then they are. If they call themselves "boi" I see them as long ago defined as a female who identifies as a masculine boyish energy. If they call themselves all of the above, then by God, they are all of the above.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by Jess

Linus, I made an apology to Grant in that thread if you care to read further, explaining my "confusion" as to his gender pronoun preference. Please note that when ever possible and without confusing endings placed on nicknames, etc. I DO try as much as humanly possible to respect a persons choice of pronoun .
Grant refers to himself as trans in his opening statement in that thread had you read it entirely.

I am not trying to be disrespectful. I think for a lot of us, the multitude of preferences in what someone chooses to be called ( especially when it says "boi" here and "boy " there and trans also) is just simply confusing and not altogether an attempt at creating "invisiblity". Not all of us have had the privilege of attending such informative workshops/ support groups and may be less aware than those whom have.

Your post specifically highlighting something I wrote feels like a personal affront and I am very offended and very disappointed that you chose to "read" into it something that wasn't there to volley wanting to start a thread. Perhaps if your own issues weren't already present you would have been able to see the same inconsistencies in how I should have addressed Grant and why it was confusing for me.

Fair enough in Grant using trans in his definition (I did miss it when I read through the thread a few times). And I saw the apology (it took me a while to forge this thread so I think it's a timing thing) you posted after I finished this. I do apologize for not seeing that "trans" in the first post. I can definitely see how that could be confusing.

It's not meant to be an affront but rather a starting point for everyone. It is something that I've seen some men and women go through. I've talked with some who are really upset at being even slightly referenced as trans and I think it is something that is valid to discuss. Even for some trans individuals (myself included) we do this. We get wrapped in the idea that if you are changing the external then you must be trans. And that isn't always a valid way of looking at things.

I appreciate that you weren't trying to be disrespectful. And I recognize that not everyone has been part of the groups I have been, which is why I think it's worthwhile to discuss these things. We had those very discussions in those groups. Do you not think that it would be worthwhile?

And perhaps it is my issue that is at the forefront but I do not believe that it diminishes the importance of having the discussion.

To answer your question for me personally, if someone says they are a man, then they are. If they call themselves "boi" I see them as long ago defined as a female who identifies as a masculine boyish energy. If they call themselves all of the above, then by God, they are all of the above.

What if they don't list it? What if they don't identify specifically? Do you (I mean general you of everyone here at BFP) think "trans" first and then woman/man?

[adorable]

I am accepting of gender. Period. I see what another person needs and wants me to see. Online it may be very difficult. One thing that I love about this site is the preferred pronouns option on the left. It makes life much easier for me since I want to dismiss no one's insides. They are very delicate for most of us. How we look on the outside doesn't always match on the inside. It is true on so many different levels and in so many different ways.

It is not so hard for me to acknowledge who the real person inside of someone is. Someone who I care for very much is seen by other people as being his outsides. I said to him once that it must be very hard for him. What he said to me is that "it doesn't matter what they think, it matters what you think." Wanting to be seen the way we actually are, as that person inside, is a very human need. Most of us have fought with ourselves and against the world our whole lives.

As a community I think it's especially important for people to be validated for how they view themselves. Most people don't get that in the real world. In many ways most of us are invisible, it is only in the written word that we can be seen. For the first time we can be the reflection of how we feel inside without people judging our outsides. I don't see trans for that reason. Trans to me implies some sort of "movement towards". My experience with talking to people is that they are already there, they were born there regardless of appearance.

To be challenged for who we are is painful. When it happens, it's a level of disappointment that I find it difficult to put words to. The only thing I think that explains it is like a childhood rejection. The first time you realized that you were different and people KNEW you were different. Then they made it a point to ridicule you for that. It is a core level rejection that cuts deeper then most things.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by Linus

Fair enough in Grant using trans in his definition (I did miss it when I read through the thread a few times). And I saw the apology (it took me a while to forge this thread so I think it's a timing thing) you posted after I finished this. I do apologize for not seeing that "trans" in the first post. I can definitely see how that could be confusing.

It's not meant to be an affront but rather a starting point for everyone. It is something that I've seen some men and women go through. I've talked with some who are really upset at being even slightly referenced as trans and I think it is something that is valid to discuss. Even for some trans individuals (myself included) we do this. We get wrapped in the idea that if you are changing the external then you must be trans. And that isn't always a valid way of looking at things.

I appreciate that you weren't trying to be disrespectful. And I recognize that not everyone has been part of the groups I have been, which is why I think it's worthwhile to discuss these things. We had those very discussions in those groups. Do you not think that it would be worthwhile?

And perhaps it is my issue that is at the forefront but I do not believe that it diminishes the importance of having the discussion.

What if they don't list it? What if they don't identify specifically? Do you (I mean general you of everyone here at BFP) think "trans" first and then woman/man?

Linus, thank you sincerely for taking the time to look over what transpired. I very much appreciate it.

I think it is an important topic and actually the above interaction only illustrates how much so.

For myself having been a butch lesbian queer dyke my whole life who has questioned almost daily whether or not I was mis-assigned or am "trans" this has been a very hard issue to wrap my head around.

I have gone through every possible scenario in my head of what it would mean for me to transition and it makes my head seriously want to explode. One on hand, having been "me" and been a part of the dyke community all of my life ( saving early childhood), it would feel like I am no longer a part "of" the hugely dysfunctional but familiar "family" I have always known. For me, it is still difficult to understand where "trans" ends and "man" starts in regard to how I would view myself in the queer community.

I view the men I know who were born in the wrong body and transitioned to the "correct" one, very clearly as MEN. I don't even understand the use of "trans" in descriptor unless it is early stage transitioning OR in the more ethereal sense of "transcendent" , meaning they are biologically one but not seeking to physically alter. "Trans" in this latter sense, meaning androgynous.. or having both aspects or neither. Does that make sense?

When I attempt to place myself in the shoes of the men who have transitioned I am awed, humbled, confused and often pained at what they may have had to endure to reach their decision to just "be".

I think it is very difficult for some of us ( self included) to understand where in the b-f dynamic "men" fit. I think sometimes that is why so many of the "gender" arguments come about. For me, I have always defined b-f as butch and femme females. I guess I naively think that once someone transitions to male, they don't really fit "b-f", because.. well... they are a man... This does not exclude them from the LGBT community, but in my tiny little brain, it just doesn't fit butch-femme. It is a different dynamic. It is man-woman or man-man or what have you. Not many men need to be described as butch, I guess.

I don't know if any of that makes any sense, but please know I am attempting to have an authentic heartfelt discussion about this. I don't know how to make all of the choices or preferences make sense. I am just trying.

Thanks again, it IS indeed a very worthy topic.

[little man]

i think much of it depends on where you are and who you're with.

inside the queer community, there is much more discussion and thought put into identity, who we are, what we are than there is in the world at large. while i'm sure there are some folks in the world who do consciously consider self and who they are in a greater context...i have doubts that gender identity plays into that much, if at all. when i'm at work or the grocery store or at the zoo...my gender identity does not come into play for anyone else. obviously, it's a part of what goes into making me the type of man i am, but i don't see anyone mulling it over. for the general population, i'm a funny guy who is helpful or irritated or pleasant. while it is noted that i'm not overly ionterested in sports and that i seem to "understand" women a bit more than your average joe...my manhood is not questioned. i'm just a different sort of man. since my primary goal in life isn't looking for pussy to get up in, but to find someone who's a good match for me in other areas....i'm a really different sort of guy.

because people tend to see the worrld through their own filters, and scrutiny of gender idenity isn't on their list of things to think about, they ascribe to the world around them an ease in being whoever one is. it's in the narrower confines of social subgroups (queer/b-f/trans) that all this stuff comes into play. i wonder if the influence of knowing we're different, in the context of the broader world, comes into play here online...where we speak up about being misnamed and call people out on intent. i think that because this place matters, these people matter to us...it's important to say this stuff aloud. i have a difficult time believing that many folks, trans or otherwise, spend much of their offline time saying, "hey...i'm a boy or a boi or a masculine female bodied man".

it's wonderful that we have these discussions, that we're all able to come to a better understanding of ourselves and others in the world. unless there were some history of conflict between any two posters, i'd be hard pressed to believe that *anyone* is being malicious in their terminology or phrasing. we take our cues from one another in what we read.

and now, it's time for this guy to give his sister a ride to work and go pull some carpet.

[adorable]

Originally Posted by little man

i think much of it depends on where you are and who you're with.

inside the queer community, there is much more discussion and thought put into identity, who we are, what we are than there is in the world at large. while i'm sure there are some folks in the world who do consciously consider self and who they are in a greater context...i have doubts that gender identity plays into that much, if at all. when i'm at work or the grocery store or at the zoo...my gender identity does not come into play for anyone else. obviously, it's a part of what goes into making me the type of man i am, but i don't see anyone mulling it over. for the general population, i'm a funny guy who is helpful or irritated or pleasant. while it is noted that i'm not overly ionterested in sports and that i seem to "understand" women a bit more than your average joe...my manhood is not questioned. i'm just a different sort of man. since my primary goal in life isn't looking for pussy to get up in, but to find someone who's a good match for me in other areas....i'm a really different sort of guy.

because people tend to see the worrld through their own filters, and scrutiny of gender idenity isn't on their list of things to think about, they ascribe to the world around them an ease in being whoever one is. it's in the narrower confines of social subgroups (queer/b-f/trans) that all this stuff comes into play. i wonder if the influence of knowing we're different, in the context of the broader world, comes into play here online...where we speak up about being misnamed and call people out on intent. i think that because this place matters, these people matter to us...it's important to say this stuff aloud. i have a difficult time believing that many folks, trans or otherwise, spend much of their offline time saying, "hey...i'm a boy or a boi or a masculine female bodied man".

it's wonderful that we have these discussions, that we're all able to come to a better understanding of ourselves and others in the world. unless there were some history of conflict between any two posters, i'd be hard pressed to believe that *anyone* is being malicious in their terminology or phrasing. we take our cues from one another in what we read.

and now, it's time for this guy to give his sister a ride to work and go pull some carpet.

I disagree. I think that IF they're outsides matched their insides they would be identifying to the world they were a man. And not only is it something they dream about, fantasize about and hope for - it can be all consuming. It is very real for them. It is very frustrating and my impression is they do think about it all the time.

Within our "subgroup" as you call it the most frustrating thing is not being able to celebrate being a man. To do that can be seen as msyoginistic. The acceptance is limited in a "yeah, yeah ok you're a man don't throw it in our face" kind of way. Being a man is not what some people feel on the inside - so rather then accept that some people do - they are quick to dismiss the realness and excitement of another's core being.

What does happen at the grocery store, at the zoo, in the shower, waiting for the bus, applying for a job - is they are reminded constantly of how the world sees them which is not how they feel. I see that is a sad sort of hell.

(I disagree with your taking your experience for others - not your experience if that makes sense. I don't see that as the experience for many female bodied men.)

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Jess

I think it is very difficult for some of us ( self included) to understand where in the b-f dynamic "men" fit. I think sometimes that is why so many of the "gender" arguments come about. For me, I have always defined b-f as butch and femme females. I guess I naively think that once someone transitions to male, they don't really fit "b-f", because.. well... they are a man... This does not exclude them from the LGBT community, but in my tiny little brain, it just doesn't fit butch-femme. It is a different dynamic. It is man-woman or man-man or what have you. Not many men need to be described as butch, I guess.

I don't know if any of that makes any sense, but please know I am attempting to have an authentic heartfelt discussion about this. I don't know how to make all of the choices or preferences make sense. I am just trying.

Thanks again, it IS indeed a very worthy topic.

Jess. Can I ask you something? I am a Femme married to a TransGuy. Should I leave my community now? Or should I only visit here single? Should I come to the Reunion alone? Because I am all Femme. My Beloved is Trans, and Queer and it really hurts (big time) to read the words you have written.

I guess if we operate from the very narrow view of the binary and the existence of only two genders, then you can make your point. Still, what a sad, sad thing to come here and read.

It feels very Michigan Womans Fest to me in the sense of being incredibly exclusionary in an environment I believed was inclusionary.

Where does that leave me Jess?

[Jess]

Originally Posted by June

(Not Moderating! Disagreeing and Discussing)

Jess -- I can tell from your post that you have given a lot of thought to this and it is still not quite resolved in your head. I don't think it is in mine, either, because it is not a path I walk. However, it is a path that many close to me are on. I know that some folks who transition move into the straight world completely by their choice. Others feel that *this* is their community. I feel that way too. I do not think you meant to be hurtful in your post at all, I am reading you as trying to figure this out like many of us are, but I can tell you that it does not feel good for me, as a woman who has many friends in this community that are or have transitioned to have their place here questioned. For me, if they love and respect Femmes and Butches, they belong here. I cannot imagine not having Theo, Billy, Turino, Linus, Chris, Cal, littleman, Dylan and several others not here.

I picked this piece out of your very long thoughtful post, most of which I agreed with or at least understood, but this bit above felt hurtful. Have you ever been excluded? I have, and it doesn't feel good.

--June

Actually, yes I have pretty much daily.

If I have hurt feelings in expressing my own questioning then I sincerely apologize.

[Bit]

I think it's important to remember that we each read through the lens of our own experience. What we have lived--our own experience and the experiences of those we love--is going to color what we read and how we respond.

For instance, Wil posted about being a transman who goes to the grocery store and notices that the people around him (mostly straight people, I bet) all seem to take it for granted that their outsides match their insides--so much for granted that they never even think it might not be so for everyone.

adorable read Wil's post about a transman going to the grocery store, but she talked about the transman's experience of being acutely aware that the outsides don't match the inside.

That's two different topics--one is "how others see transmen," and the other is "how transmen see themselves."

Jess posted about not seeing transmen in the community as butches anymore.

Adele read Jess's post and posted about transmen and their partners being excluded from the community.

Again, that's two different topics. One is "transmen are different from butches" and the other is "do transmen fit in this community?"

I think the reason threads like this so often blow up is that people very often think we're all talking about the same exact topic, and don't recognize the different topics as they come up; then we get confused and sometimes hurt and/or angry. It makes it hard to understand each other.

I think, in threads like this, it's more important than ever to remember that none of us are trying to hurt or be disrespectful of anyone. We just aren't always speaking about the exact same topic, yanno?

[BullDog]

Saying you believe that butch and female identities are female identities and wondering where man fits in is not the same thing as saying they shouldn't be welcome. I didn't read Jess' post as saying they shouldn't be welcome.

Very few (I can't think of any but there could be some) transitioned men identify as butch. It doesn't mean they shouldn't be welcome in a butch femme community if they want to be a part of it.

[SuperFemme]

What happens to masculine id'd butches? Those that transition not to male, but out of female and into another gender all together.

Bit? As for me having hurt feelings after reading that *males* don't belong here? I read it exactly as it was written. Please don't negate my feelings again, ok?

I'm trying to make sense of it all, just like Jess.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Jess

1. For myself having been a butch lesbian queer dyke my whole life who has questioned almost daily whether or not I was mis-assigned or am "trans" this has been a very hard issue to wrap my head around.

2. I have gone through every possible scenario in my head of what it would mean for me to transition and it makes my head seriously want to explode. One on hand, having been "me" and been a part of the dyke community all of my life ( saving early childhood), it would feel like I am no longer a part "of" the hugely dysfunctional but familiar "family" I have always known. For me, it is still difficult to understand where "trans" ends and "man" starts in regard to how I would view myself in the queer community.

3. I view the men I know who were born in the wrong body and transitioned to the "correct" one, very clearly as MEN. I don't even understand the use of "trans" in descriptor unless it is early stage transitioning OR in the more ethereal sense of "transcendent" , meaning they are biologically one but not seeking to physically alter. "Trans" in this latter sense, meaning androgynous.. or having both aspects or neither. Does that make sense?

4. I think it is very difficult for some of us ( self included) to understand where in the b-f dynamic "men" fit. I think sometimes that is why so many of the "gender" arguments come about. For me, I have always defined b-f as butch and femme females. I guess I naively think that once someone transitions to male, they don't really fit "b-f", because.. well... they are a man... This does not exclude them from the LGBT community, but in my tiny little brain, it just doesn't fit butch-femme. It is a different dynamic. It is man-woman or man-man or what have you. Not many men need to be described as butch, I guess.

5. I don't know if any of that makes any sense, but please know I am attempting to have an authentic heartfelt discussion about this. I don't know how to make all of the choices or preferences make sense. I am just trying.

I realize you're not coming from a place of being intentionally hurtful. I'm numbering your paragraphs as just an easier way to discuss all the things you've brought up instead of having to break it up into separate quotes.

And while I completely realize your intention is not to be hurtful...I have to say, from my ME place, your words sting...a lot.

Paragraph 1: Your words sting a lot, but it's not just your words. I don't understand why you put bunny ears (quotes) around the word trans.

Paragraph 3. I don't understand the bunny ears around "correct" either. I'm also lost at "biologically one, but not seeking to physically alter". I also don't understand your definition of trans meaning androgynous. If you really see men as men...how are they androgynous or both or neither?

On another note, and this is probably going to sound 'lectury or 'lessony', but it's text and not speech. I don't mean it in a schooly type way. Transwomen and ciswomen share biological traits which transmen and cismen don't share. Same goes for transmen/cismen and transwomen/ciswomen. So, when one says, "biological man/woman", I get confused. Being trans isn't just a head trip. It's also a "biological" thing. There are lots of biological factors that transmen and cismen share (same with transwomen and ciswomen). There is a really good book I can't remember the name of right now that explains all of these biological similarities in great detail. When/If I remember the name of the book, I'll post it.

Lastly on paragraph 3 (and this is going to sound more prickish than intended, but again, it's text and not speech, and if we were having this conversation in person, it wouldn't sound prickish)...you don't get to decide how transfolk use the term 'trans'. Different transpeople use the term differently to mean different things. It's not up to you to decide how it's used. Personally, sometimes, I use it and sometimes I don't. My experiences differ greatly from other transpeople's experiences, and how and why and when I use 'trans' varies from person to person and day to day. Sometimes, it's easier to convey to less informed people, so I use the word trans. Sometimes, my use is dependent upon who's listening. Sometimes, it's dependent on my mood. Sometimes, the wind blows from the south, and I use the word trans as a self-descriptor. The hows/whys/whens of that are up to ME...no one else. If you or anyone else can't grasp that...then just LISTEN. I don't expect you or anyone else to magically 'know' things.

Paragraph 4. While you, personally, may define b-f as female-only...it's not. In fact, tons of gay men are part of the b-f dynamic. Butch is a word used by straight, cis people to define straight, cismen and even straight, ciswomen. It's NOT a term exclusive to queer females. It's just not. While YOUR particular experience with the b-f terms/community *might* be female-only...it's just NOT a female-only community.

Now, here's where I get a bit lost in your post. In paragraph 2 you state you've given Transdom a lot of thought, and you would feel no longer a part of a community you've known your entire life. I get that. Totally one hundred percent get that. I think probably every transguy who's been a part of this community/family has grappled with that.

Backstory: I have been labeled by OTHERS my entire life as 'Lez', 'He/She', 'Dyke', 'Lesbian', 'Female', 'Woman', etc. My Whole Life...literally from the second I slid outta the womb. I didn't pick these terms for myself...they were chosen FOR me.

I came out when I was 14. I went right into the lesbian community, because A) I had been labeled a lesbian, so I figured that's what was going on; and B) there was very little talk of trans-issues in those days. One might see the occasional transwoman who was labeled a 'drag queen' by everyone else, but I definitely NEVER saw any transguys.

That was over 25 years ago. I have been a part of the b-f community and the lesbian community for over 25 years. All of my friends have always been queer with a few exceptions. Straight venues have never been safe for me, so I have not really ever spent much time in straight arenas (sans workplaces, etc). I mean, I don't really even go to shopping malls, because it's just never been safe. I know all of the social cues and little inuendos of queer space. Put me in straight space, and I'm kind of lost. If I'm not lost, I simply refuse to partake. I have no idea how straight-space operates. Queer space, as you put it, is my "dysfunctional yet familiar family" also.

So, please tell me why I have to give that up? Why would anyone have to give that up? My entire life has been devoted to advancing queer (specifically lesbian) rights. I have always stood behind this community. While I have been socialized in many aspects as female, and I've been treated female by everyone around me, and I've definitely 'paid my dues' as an out queer for so many years, I have also been socialized QUEER. So, again, please tell me why I'm expected to then what? just forget about all of that and jump out of my 'dysfunctional yet familiar family' and into a world I've never known? Just because some people have a very LIMITED view of butch-femme? I'm supposed to forget all of that, because YOU view my relationship as 'straight'? Really? Because I don't view my relationship as straight, and neither does Mahhh Woman. And I don't view MYSELF as straight. Mahhh Woman doesn't view herself as straight, and she never has...even when she was married to a cisman.

And here's where I get a little pissy (and again, I completely realize you're coming from a place of trying to understand...but I'm entitled to my pissiness). I have lived my ENTIRE life having someone ELSE determine my place in the world...whether that place was 'female', or 'woman', or 'lesbian', or 'he/she', or <insert birthname here>, or 'daughter', or 'dyke', or whatnot. YOU do NOT get to determine where I belong...how queer I am...whether I'm butch...whether I'm straight...whether I should give up my 'dysfunctional yet familiar family'. I (me, me, me) determine that. NOT you. This particular site is a QUEER site. I'm queer. I'm here. Get used to it. Queer includes trans. Some butches are cismen. Some butches are transmen. Some butches are just men. Some butches are gay men. Some butches are straight cismen. Some butches are straight transmen. Some butches are nelly-ass-flaming third gendered butches. Some butches are male-ID'd. Some butches are ciswomen. Some butches are transwomen. Some femmes are cismen. Some femmes are transmen. Some butches are queer ciswomen. Some butches are straight ciswomen. Some femmes are queer, het, ciswomen. The list is endless.

If you view butch-femme as simply 'lesbian, cisfemale-only', you're not only dissing transfolks, you're also dissing all of those folks who don't ID as either lesbian, cis, male, female, man, queer, or woman...and that's A LOT of people. Some people view their sex and/or gender as simply 'Butch' or 'Femme' with no other explanations.

Sex and sexuality are not the same thing. My sex has nothing to do with my gender either. My sex has nothing to do with a myriad of aspects of my life.

This ain't your grandmother's butch-femme community.

Paragraph 5. I really wish people would get over this "choices" and "preferences" idea. People's sex/genders/sexualities are NOT NOT NOT 'choices and preferences'. It's funny if I were to start dissing Mahhh Woman's life as 'woman' or 'female' as something she 'chooses' or 'prefers', she'd be pretty upset with me. My mother didn't 'choose' her sex any more than I 'chose' my sex. You didn't 'choose' or 'prefer' to be queer anymore than I did. It's diminishing to call your 'life' a preference or choice. I'm sure you get a little riled up when the fundies start calling being queer 'a choice'.

And once again, I completely realize you're coming from a place of trying to understand, and you're not intentionally trying to hurt/oppress anyone. I get that.


Dylan

[Bit]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Bit? As for me having hurt feelings after reading that *males* don't belong here? I read it exactly as it was written. Please don't negate my feelings again, ok?

I didn't negate your feelings, Adele. I stated that you posted about being excluded from the community--and on reading your post again, this sentence, "It feels very Michigan Womans Fest to me in the sense of being incredibly exclusionary in an environment I believed was inclusionary." still says to me that you were posting about transmen and their partners being excluded from the community.

I don't know how you would read my interpreting that you were talking about being excluded from the community as anything other than supportive of your feelings.

It says nothing whatever about you (or your feelings) for me to say that I believe Jess was talking about transmen who have fully transitioned not being butches anymore; I've seldom run into any men who wanted to be referred to as butches once they finish transitioning, so I don't see his statement as disrespectful or exclusionary, especially since he says, "This does not exclude them from the LGBT community..."

If we disagree on what Jess meant by his post, that's fine, but disagreeing about the way to interpret someone else's post is not the same as negating your feelings.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Jess

I think it is very difficult for some of us ( self included) to understand where in the b-f dynamic "men" fit. I think sometimes that is why so many of the "gender" arguments come about. For me, I have always defined b-f as butch and femme females. I guess I naively think that once someone transitions to male, they don't really fit "b-f", because.. well... they are a man... This does not exclude them from the LGBT community, but in my tiny little brain, it just doesn't fit butch-femme. It is a different dynamic. It is man-woman or man-man or what have you. Not many men need to be described as butch, I guess.

I don't know if any of that makes any sense, but please know I am attempting to have an authentic heartfelt discussion about this. I don't know how to make all of the choices or preferences make sense. I am just trying.

Thanks again, it IS indeed a very worthy topic.

I am kind of understanding Jess here...I think.

We, as a society, like to give things names or labels. It might be a byproduct of advertising techniques or maybe just indicates we are too lazy to use extra words.

The non-hetero community in all it facets is a very complicated place, getting more and more complicated as new definitions are added. And the womens community has always seemed to welcome more and more variations cuz we like to be inclusive rather than exclusive it seems.

I, too, am confused as to how this works and struggling to find the words to use which wont offend someone. Then again, sometimes just "hello" can be offensive

The Butch-Femme community as far as I know from history was to celebrate the special connection between feminine female energy and masculine female energy into specific dynamic between women who wanted to be with other women.

In the broader arena, the Butch-Femme community is the logical place for non female identifying folks to be. The energy exchange and dynamics are already in place, accepted, and understood. Someone identifying as a non female would have a heck of a time in a general "lesbian" arena.

On the other hand, I personally, am offended when a non female uses the word Butch. Butch, to me, is a noun not an adjective.

Plus, I have fought for many years not to be seen as a woman who wants to be a male just because I am Butch. And, I worry that Butch as a distinct identity is being undermined and redefined to accomodate non females. And, the accomodation has me back at square one having to reiterate....no, I dont want to be a male.

This is a very complicated issue on many levels. Some trans folks can pass for males without a problem and blend into the general population. So can most femmes. It is the Butch who has to straddle several worlds and be subjected to much speculation and much misunderstanding.

We are more likely to understand the difficulties involved in being seen as something you are not. Hence, this aspect of the subculture is a bridge of sorts.

Yet, Butch-Femme, per se has historically been a subculture in the lesbian world. If it incorporates non females is it still lesbian? And are former lesbians now involved with non females lesbians or heteros?

Before anyone jumps all over me, like Jess, I am struggling to understand something and raising, hopefully, appropriate questions in an accepting arena.
One can respect something even if they dont understand it.

As a closing note, sometimes people make things too complex and become stuck. I like to think when this happens, the Power that is, finds ways to nudge us along onto a different but growth filled path.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Paragraph 3. I don't understand the bunny ears around "correct" either. I'm also lost at "biologically one, but not seeking to physically alter". I also don't understand your definition of trans meaning androgynous. If you really see men as men...how are they androgynous or both or neither?

Hey Dylan, I read that paragraph as making a distinction between transsexual men--whom Jess sees as men--and transgendered-as-in-third-gender butches. Third gender butches don't usually transition, and yet we use the term "trans" for them as well as for guys who transition, because there's so much overlap between the two terms "transgendered" and "transsexual" in the wider transsexual community. To me, that's a very frustrating ambiguity in the language. It seems to trip up all kinds of people, yanno?

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Bit

Hey Dylan, I read that paragraph as making a distinction between transsexual men--whom Jess sees as men--and transgendered-as-in-third-gender butches. Third gender butches don't usually transition, and yet we use the term "trans" for them as well as for guys who transition, because there's so much overlap between the two terms "transgendered" and "transsexual" in the wider transsexual community. To me, that's a very frustrating ambiguity in the language. It seems to trip up all kinds of people, yanno?

Ok I have no idea what you just said but it looks important. Can you elaborate?

[adorable]

Originally Posted by Jess

Linus, thank you sincerely for taking the time to look over what transpired. I very much appreciate it.

I think it is an important topic and actually the above interaction only illustrates how much so.

For myself having been a butch lesbian queer dyke my whole life who has questioned almost daily whether or not I was mis-assigned or am "trans" this has been a very hard issue to wrap my head around.

I have gone through every possible scenario in my head of what it would mean for me to transition and it makes my head seriously want to explode. One on hand, having been "me" and been a part of the dyke community all of my life ( saving early childhood), it would feel like I am no longer a part "of" the hugely dysfunctional but familiar "family" I have always known. For me, it is still difficult to understand where "trans" ends and "man" starts in regard to how I would view myself in the queer community.

I view the men I know who were born in the wrong body and transitioned to the "correct" one, very clearly as MEN. I don't even understand the use of "trans" in descriptor unless it is early stage transitioning OR in the more ethereal sense of "transcendent" , meaning they are biologically one but not seeking to physically alter. "Trans" in this latter sense, meaning androgynous.. or having both aspects or neither. Does that make sense?

When I attempt to place myself in the shoes of the men who have transitioned I am awed, humbled, confused and often pained at what they may have had to endure to reach their decision to just "be".

I think it is very difficult for some of us ( self included) to understand where in the b-f dynamic "men" fit. I think sometimes that is why so many of the "gender" arguments come about. For me, I have always defined b-f as butch and femme females. I guess I naively think that once someone transitions to male, they don't really fit "b-f", because.. well... they are a man... This does not exclude them from the LGBT community, but in my tiny little brain, it just doesn't fit butch-femme. It is a different dynamic. It is man-woman or man-man or what have you. Not many men need to be described as butch, I guess.

I don't know if any of that makes any sense, but please know I am attempting to have an authentic heartfelt discussion about this. I don't know how to make all of the choices or preferences make sense. I am just trying.

Thanks again, it IS indeed a very worthy topic.

For me. ME ME ME ME.

As a history major, (who did not concentrate in Women's Studies btw) - in fact there maybe people on here who actually lived it - so please let me know if my reading of the history is inadequate...

The 1940s and 1950s were about clearly defined gender roles. The two genders were male and female. It was in the late 1960s and 1970s that some in the women's movement decided that the butch femme dynamic was oppressive and saw Butch - Femme as attempting to mimic hetro life. As time moves forward, so do social norms, societal preferences and technology. All things that we are exposed to in different ways depending on where we live, who raises us and technological accessibility.

These are also those things that make this dynamic hard to define TODAY. In past decades it has clearly been defined, misunderstood, used for good and to seperate.

To me Male IDs, TGs and FTMS DO belong in the most traditional sense of Butch-Femme, in a way that I do not.

I do belong in the newer updated we are "everything" version of butch-femme.

When the Butch-Femme dynamic became popular during the 40s & 50s, I don't think it was analyzed like this - it was a much simpler time with far less technology. Women dressed up like men, held doors, went to work in factories and had their "wife" at home. So did almost every other 1950s household. It was a reflection of society then.

WE (the all inclusive WE) are the reflection of society now.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I realize you're not coming from a place of being intentionally hurtful. I'm numbering your paragraphs as just an easier way to discuss all the things you've brought up instead of having to break it up into separate quotes.

And while I completely realize your intention is not to be hurtful...I have to say, from my ME place, your words sting...a lot.

Paragraph 1: Your words sting a lot, but it's not just your words. I don't understand why you put bunny ears (quotes) around the word trans.

Paragraph 3. I don't understand the bunny ears around "correct" either. I'm also lost at "biologically one, but not seeking to physically alter". I also don't understand your definition of trans meaning androgynous. If you really see men as men...how are they androgynous or both or neither?

On another note, and this is probably going to sound 'lectury or 'lessony', but it's text and not speech. I don't mean it in a schooly type way. Transwomen and ciswomen share biological traits which transmen and cismen don't share. Same goes for transmen/cismen and transwomen/ciswomen. So, when one says, "biological man/woman", I get confused. Being trans isn't just a head trip. It's also a "biological" thing. There are lots of biological factors that transmen and cismen share (same with transwomen and ciswomen). There is a really good book I can't remember the name of right now that explains all of these biological similarities in great detail. When/If I remember the name of the book, I'll post it.

Lastly on paragraph 3 (and this is going to sound more prickish than intended, but again, it's text and not speech, and if we were having this conversation in person, it wouldn't sound prickish)...you don't get to decide how transfolk use the term 'trans'. Different transpeople use the term differently to mean different things. It's not up to you to decide how it's used. Personally, sometimes, I use it and sometimes I don't. My experiences differ greatly from other transpeople's experiences, and how and why and when I use 'trans' varies from person to person and day to day. Sometimes, it's easier to convey to less informed people, so I use the word trans. Sometimes, my use is dependent upon who's listening. Sometimes, it's dependent on my mood. Sometimes, the wind blows from the south, and I use the word trans as a self-descriptor. The hows/whys/whens of that are up to ME...no one else. If you or anyone else can't grasp that...then just LISTEN. I don't expect you or anyone else to magically 'know' things.

Paragraph 4. While you, personally, may define b-f as female-only...it's not. In fact, tons of gay men are part of the b-f dynamic. Butch is a word used by straight, cis people to define straight, cismen and even straight, ciswomen. It's NOT a term exclusive to queer females. It's just not. While YOUR particular experience with the b-f terms/community *might* be female-only...it's just NOT a female-only community.

Now, here's where I get a bit lost in your post. In paragraph 2 you state you've given Transdom a lot of thought, and you would feel no longer a part of a community you've known your entire life. I get that. Totally one hundred percent get that. I think probably every transguy who's been a part of this community/family has grappled with that.

Backstory: I have been labeled by OTHERS my entire life as 'Lez', 'He/She', 'Dyke', 'Lesbian', 'Female', 'Woman', etc. My Whole Life...literally from the second I slid outta the womb. I didn't pick these terms for myself...they were chosen FOR me.

I came out when I was 14. I went right into the lesbian community, because A) I had been labeled a lesbian, so I figured that's what was going on; and B) there was very little talk of trans-issues in those days. One might see the occasional transwoman who was labeled a 'drag queen' by everyone else, but I definitely NEVER saw any transguys.

That was over 25 years ago. I have been a part of the b-f community and the lesbian community for over 25 years. All of my friends have always been queer with a few exceptions. Straight venues have never been safe for me, so I have not really ever spent much time in straight arenas (sans workplaces, etc). I mean, I don't really even go to shopping malls, because it's just never been safe. I know all of the social cues and little inuendos of queer space. Put me in straight space, and I'm kind of lost. If I'm not lost, I simply refuse to partake. I have no idea how straight-space operates. Queer space, as you put it, is my "dysfunctional yet familiar family" also.

So, please tell me why I have to give that up? Why would anyone have to give that up? My entire life has been devoted to advancing queer (specifically lesbian) rights. I have always stood behind this community. While I have been socialized in many aspects as female, and I've been treated female by everyone around me, and I've definitely 'paid my dues' as an out queer for so many years, I have also been socialized QUEER. So, again, please tell me why I'm expected to then what? just forget about all of that and jump out of my 'dysfunctional yet familiar family' and into a world I've never known? Just because some people have a very LIMITED view of butch-femme? I'm supposed to forget all of that, because YOU view my relationship as 'straight'? Really? Because I don't view my relationship as straight, and neither does Mahhh Woman. And I don't view MYSELF as straight. Mahhh Woman doesn't view herself as straight, and she never has...even when she was married to a cisman.

And here's where I get a little pissy (and again, I completely realize you're coming from a place of trying to understand...but I'm entitled to my pissiness). I have lived my ENTIRE life having someone ELSE determine my place in the world...whether that place was 'female', or 'woman', or 'lesbian', or 'he/she', or <insert birthname here>, or 'daughter', or 'dyke', or whatnot. YOU do NOT get to determine where I belong...how queer I am...whether I'm butch...whether I'm straight...whether I should give up my 'dysfunctional yet familiar family'. I (me, me, me) determine that. NOT you. This particular site is a QUEER site. I'm queer. I'm here. Get used to it. Queer includes trans. Some butches are cismen. Some butches are transmen. Some butches are just men. Some butches are gay men. Some butches are straight cismen. Some butches are straight transmen. Some butches are nelly-ass-flaming third gendered butches. Some butches are male-ID'd. Some butches are ciswomen. Some butches are transwomen. Some femmes are cismen. Some femmes are transmen. Some butches are queer ciswomen. Some butches are straight ciswomen. Some femmes are queer, het, ciswomen. The list is endless.

If you view butch-femme as simply 'lesbian, cisfemale-only', you're not only dissing transfolks, you're also dissing all of those folks who don't ID as either lesbian, cis, male, female, man, queer, or woman...and that's A LOT of people. Some people view their sex and/or gender as simply 'Butch' or 'Femme' with no other explanations.

Sex and sexuality are not the same thing. My sex has nothing to do with my gender either. My sex has nothing to do with a myriad of aspects of my life.

This ain't your grandmother's butch-femme community.

Paragraph 5. I really wish people would get over this "choices" and "preferences" idea. People's sex/genders/sexualities are NOT NOT NOT 'choices and preferences'. It's funny if I were to start dissing Mahhh Woman's life as 'woman' or 'female' as something she 'chooses' or 'prefers', she'd be pretty upset with me. My mother didn't 'choose' her sex any more than I 'chose' my sex. You didn't 'choose' or 'prefer' to be queer anymore than I did. It's diminishing to call your 'life' a preference or choice. I'm sure you get a little riled up when the fundies start calling being queer 'a choice'.

And once again, I completely realize you're coming from a place of trying to understand, and you're not intentionally trying to hurt/oppress anyone. I get that.


Dylan

Dylan, just so you know, I read and value what you shared here and do want to get back to this discussion with you ( and anyone else participating respectfully), but as it is a very intimate topic, I want to give myself more time to try to choose my words better.

I really do hate making anyone feel hurt or pissed because I really do feel it myself as well. That is so not what it is about for me and I will trust that you believe that.

Gonna go slap some paint and chair rails on the boys room and marinate over this all.

Thanks, Jess

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Bit

Hey Dylan, I read that paragraph as making a distinction between transsexual men--whom Jess sees as men--and transgendered-as-in-third-gender butches. Third gender butches don't usually transition, and yet we use the term "trans" for them as well as for guys who transition, because there's so much overlap between the two terms "transgendered" and "transsexual" in the wider transsexual community. To me, that's a very frustrating ambiguity in the language. It seems to trip up all kinds of people, yanno?

Which is why I (personally) DO try to make an effort to distinguish btwn transgendered and transsexed (removing the sexual part all together, because most people tend to meld transsexual into sex and sexuality...which is archaic as far as I'm concerned)

I DO DO DO believe there is a HUGGGGGGEE difference btwn transgendered and transsexed which very very often get all lumped into one category making for an enormously confusing conversation.


Totally Agreed,
Dylan