The Ultimate Backpack: Unpacking your own Male Privilege

[Linus]

One of the side effects (undesired by me, at least) was crown of male privilege and specifically, white male privilege. I never really realized the impact of it until I began passing more regularly and noticed how people changed how they responded to me.

In my day-to-day life, people are more friendly and courteous when I meet them in person and for interactions. People ask me for my opinion and listen to what I say with little interruption. I've even once been put to the front of a line and declined this because other people were in front of me (most were older women who had a fair amount of groceries and looked exhausted -- I figured I had time to wait while they probably wanted to just go). Sometimes it's little things that happen that I realize I never would have seen before (e.g., preferential treatment in a restaurant or complete agreement with a complaint).

Before, no one had noticed me and was oblivious to who I was unless it was a computer and/or network issue. Then I was abrupt and abrasive. It's interesting to see how comments have slightly changed. Instead of just being a "good" instructor I'm the "best instructor they've ever had in IT training in their 30+ years.." My knowledge and teaching manner hasn't really changed (I upgrade my knowledge regularly and always have) but people read me different than previously, which I find interesting and disturbing at times.

I've also had the negative response where it's assumed that I have no clue what women go through and what's it's like to be a woman. That I have no idea what it's like to be more emotional at certain times of the month and really don't need to be put down during that time as well as being forced into a specific role and image of woman. *chuckles* I think that one in particular I do understand. Part of me wants to speak up about that (I do embrace my past as part of me and recognize it's importance at getting me to this point of my life in one piece) but I try to step back and not interject my voice in where it really doesn't belong or welcomed (I sometimes can't help myself but I am trying to step out and just listen rather than want to be always heard).


For those that wonder, male privilege (particularly white male privilege) could be defined as:

1. That your opinion/voice is more valued over a female and/or POC opinion/voice. (note: a good obvious example is politicians and who the media goes to for the sound bite on a policy piece more often than not).

2. You and a female friend are talking to another male and the other male always directs responses to you even if your female friend asks.

3. You get treated different or better than women and/or POC.

4. You never get challenged on who you are or whether your ID is correct (e.g., passports, TSA security checks at airports, paying with credit card)

5. You get a better credit rating, better credit limits, etc. Financial institutions respect any decision you make and don't try to necessarily up sell you or question your choices.

6. You get more pay or an increase in pay; more job opportunities (this would only come into play if you do not disclose your trans identity).

7. You feel you are "owed" something in society. Our society, built by white wealthy men, is built on hierarchy (whether we want to believe this or not).

There's more, I know there is. My brain is feeling a bit fuzzy today so I apologize for not having all of them up. If you want to add more that I have missed, let me know.

Anyways, that said, I'm curious as to what other transmen or male-identified butches (who are read as male and seen as "men") are doing to address their own male-privilege and break down the hierarchy to level things out more. Have you had moments where that little light bulb went off and you realized that it was male privilege that was getting you such-and-such in life? Have you addressed your own misogyny? (misogyny, as definition, is the hatred of all things "female" -- an interesting challenge for transguys, I think) What about addressing patriarchy in your roles? (that is, you see yourself as leader and your female counterpart is subservient to you in some fashion or another).

While the thread is open to all, I'd rather to see transguys and male-identified butches participate. This isn't a thread to bash either for who they are or what they are not. The idea is to have a frank and open discussion about an issue that I believe is an important issue to discuss (the irony is not lost on me here), breakdown and come to terms with so that it can be dismantled at some point from society.

All I ask is that people be respectful in their discussions/ideas/opinions. Remember to discuss the issue and not go after the person. You can always step back and come back (step up, step down).

[Bob]

Possibly (un)related: "Why James Chartrand Wears Women's Underpants" - http://www.copyblogger.com/james-chartrand-underpants/

It touches on some of the issues Linus raises, although in a different (non-trans) context.

[Andrew, Jr.]

Linus,

In my view, I have had a bit of both thrown my way. For example, when in the glbt community I am who I am. However, in the straight community I feel the need to constantly have to tell ppl gently that my name is Andrew. Sometimes ppl are rude and nasty trying to be just that. On the other side of the coin, sometimes they mean no harm.

All of my doctors call me Andrew. All of the important people in my life call me Andrew. And I expect that. It is respect.

In the Jewish faith, men hold the main tradition as being head of the household. It is expected that they work, bring home the money to support their family, and carry on all business of life & living. Women are really 2nd class citizens (Hysidic - spelling?). Now, you have known me, and Rosie and see our struggles. I don't work. I have to rely and depend on others for survival. Without that help, I don't survive. That is how it is.

As for flying...that is another story. I hate to fly. I am always, forever, and a day the one that is pulled aside, and practically have to undress for everyone and be wanded down. I still don't get it. Rosie takes on the role of taking on all the carry-on's, and handling the luggage, but I still get pulled over. Go figure.

I think if there was a more easier way to have your gender and name change be done, then we should be able to do it. I just think it is wrong on so many levels that every state is different in how this is processed. I really am liking the idea of a one card for everyone, including passport. That makes sense to me.

Straight white men have always been given the leaway in society. It makes me think that everyone else is discriminated against.

Great thread!

Love,
Andrew

[atomiczombie]

I don't know white male privilege.....yet. I haven't started T yet, but will be in the next few weeks. I am still treated like a second class citizen. Yes, I know a lot of things about being a woman. I know what it is like to be on the receiving end of male violence against women. I know what it is like to be seen purely as a sexual object by men. I know what it is like to be dismissed when expressing my ideas. I know what it is like to have a period too lol. I know what it is like for a woman to be raped by a man. I know what it is like to be on the receiving end of misogyny. I know all of these things and more, first hand.

I see misogyny directed at women and I cringe. I grew up seeing my mom be treated like shit by her boss for years. She has been sexually harassed on the job, treated like a dog, and come home from work crying on many occasions. She felt that she needed the job and couldn't quit, and felt trapped. It made me sick.

I am keenly aware of misogyny, and I hate it. I try so hard not to be a perpetrator, to show respect and kindness to all women. I know that a lot of femmes on this site feel the sting of misogyny from certain butches and transguys, and that blows me away. I don't understand how someone who grew up as a girl could forget what that is like and treat a woman so cruelly. It disgusts me, really it does.

As for male privilege, I anticipate it happening to me, and I already feel guilt about it, though I have not experienced it yet. Is that crazy or what? I fear the privilege. I don't want it. I fear it will change me and make me an asshole, make me expect and take advantage of it. I don't want that. I also fear that once I have it, that others in the community will see me as the enemy; that girls in particular will assume I am a misogynist pig and mistrust me. Being a male ID'd transguy, I already feel that mistrust here on this site. It saddens me greatly. I am not one of those misogynist boneheads, but I feel the burden they create nonetheless. I do not blame femmes for this, don't get me wrong. I blame the misogynist boneheads who treat femmes like second class citizens, who see them as less than, who treat them as an accessory and not as an equal, who don't really see and respect them for all the wonderful things that they are.

I don't know. *sigh* This whole privilege thing has me sad and feeling like my impending integration with my mind and body, my transition, isn't something to celebrate and feel good about. I feel glum to be honest. I don't want the privilege. I know I will do my best to be out about my trans status as much as I can after transition. I really don't know what else to say at this point.

[little man]

glad you started this thread, linus.

yessir, i've got the privilege. i haven't developed the sense of entitlement yet, though. at least i don't think i have.

i'm about 6.5 yrs into transition. has my life changed? boy howdy. on the one hand, i do feel badly about having all this crap just handed to me. on the other hand, it sure is a nice break from the "good ol' days". i try to temper the perks by making room for my female counterparts to be heard, to be seen, to be recognized. i call bullshit when i see it and i talk, talk, talk about things people say about women, ways they treat women, etc. i don't know that i've changed any minds, but i'm pretty sure i've planted a seed or two (i do these things around race, too).

i really don't know how to go about dismantling the privilege. i do try to be vigilant about not taking up more than my fair share of space and making sure the powers that be hear about the capabilities of my female counterparts.

mostly, i try to be a good man. i try to set the bar a little higher for what a man can and should be. a female coworker told me not long ago that she enjoys talking to me because i understand a lot of things and am willing to discuss emotional stuff. and everything is not about my dick or getting laid. i took that to mean i'm doing something right. i'm definitely doing something outside the normal experiences of her waking world.

i don't think there is a way to give back the privilege we gain. i do think there are ways to share it and have the platform to advance others. perhaps the answer lies in using it for the betterment of all, rather than getting myself or the other ol' boys further along.

[Queerasfck]

Originally Posted by little man

and everything is not about my dick or getting laid.

O snap! It's not? There's my mistake...............

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by EzeeTiger

O snap! It's not? There's my mistake...............

Tell that to this guy...

[theoddz]

Interesting that this topic should come up, because I was just discussing this with my coworker yesterday. I had been kind of "thinking aloud" in the office between rounds while we were sitting on our collective arses (ya, we do that..sometimes a LOT).

I'm still not totally used to, nor comfortable with receiving the benefits of male privilege in my world. I guess I spent too many years in a female skin, looking from the outside in, into an body and a world that I felt I should had and should have been part of, from the time I drew my first breaths. I've never forgotten, nor do I ever want to, the feeling that I had to justify my opinions, my actions, my professionalism, whathaveyou...because of the body I was born in to. Looking at it now, I can see the behaviors that cause feelings of being "second class" and it causes a sinking, sickening feeling in my gut. If I don't like that feeling, and I certainly don't....why would anyone else??

In my life, I have known and had, as role models, so many fierce, strong, loving members of the female gender. These women certainly had no reason whatsoever to play second fiddle to anyone. My mother who, born in 1922, was so much NOT a woman of her time, has always seemed to harbor such resentment that she was denied so much for no other reason other than her femaleness. When she was a young woman, working at Shaffer Pen Co., women kept their employment until 6 months after they were married...then Shaffer let them go. Like Mother's mother before, Mother has always had a very thinly veiled deep resentment of men while, at the same time, they both dutifully followed their own generational teachings of "how to be a woman and graciously and willingly let men come first". I hate that, yet I love my mother and the way she raised me to never take second best, not even to men, even though that was the way she was raised. It's this very teaching, and yes, she taught my sister and I what she was taught, but yet she also taught us how to be strong and how to survive life's struggles and still come out on top, or at least "okay". She taught us, the best she could, how to come into our own, no matter what.....and not be ashamed or apologetic for it. Mother was ahead of her time and had 2 unsuccessful marriages to prove it.

I have both sides of this. Transition has caused me to take a good look at all of this. I can't change what I've lived, nor can I change the lessons of growing up as I did. I can grieve the (lost/denied) boyhood and yet journey into manhood the best way I can, trying to reconcile the resentment with the newfound "privilege", but I never, ever want to forget just who I am. This has been not what I'd call "hard" to do, but it has presented with its own strange and sometimes very uncomfortable conundrums along the way. I want to keep that part of me that will always and forever be "my mother's daughter", in all that strength and perseverance, but I also need to be the man I am, too. I need to keep that in-between, yet righteous perspective and try to stay aware of my own perspective and not just blindly follow and fall in line with the bad side of societal pressures. I think that if I can graciously carry and balance what I have learned with what I have been taught, then I can be a good ally....and a better man. I need to combine listening to my sisters' voices with the charge of my own manhood. Share limelight, instead of just taking it. Does that make sense??

I think there is a gracious way of handling privilege. You share it by shifting it over to others, and that's what I do in my job and whenever/wherever I can. I have found that, especially when I'm around other (cis) men, this is something that's not easy to do, because most guys seem to always be clamoring for their own masculinity amongst other males, and this is even more true for us men who have had to transition and find our own place amongst our (cis) brothers. But, when a question is aimed at me, whether or not I recognize it or not as being due to my maleness, I defer to my female colleagues (in the work environment, for example) and get them to offer their input. I try to make it a point to actively insert them and take the focus of "unique male credibility" off of myself. When there have been other (cis) males around, I seem to always get those looks that seem to convey both disbelief and a bit of anger/betrayal that a fellow male would defer to the females. So there's peer pressure to exclude, too. I think that tearing down privilege is a lot about sharing empowerment. It's about public rejection, in a lot of ways, I think. If you refuse to take it for your own....if you have the guts to turn it down...then you can dismantle it, chunk by chunk. I just think that that is sometimes hard for the average person to do because, by nature, many of us are so self-focused. As transmen/FtMs, we're just not used to having it, and when it is finally granted to us and we're accepted into "The Boys' Club", it's like having walked through a desert and finally being offered a drink of water. We're there. We've arrived. We're finally accepted.....and we'll do anything it takes to keep it that way, even if it's wrong and keeping it means that we have to keep up status quo at the expense of those who are still being denied.

Thanks for this thread. I think this needs to be discussed.

Respectfully,
~Theo~

[Linus]

I wanted to keep all the posts in but ran into character limits for this reply.

Originally Posted by Bob

Possibly (un)related: "Why James Chartrand Wears Women's Underpants" - http://www.copyblogger.com/james-chartrand-underpants/

It touches on some of the issues Linus raises, although in a different (non-trans) context.

That was really interesting. I think the most telling was this:

Why should it matter to me that you’re a woman? But it does – I’m amazed at my hidden sexism. Not in a ‘I’m never going to read her writing again’ – more that it changes the way I read it.
And not in a bad way, but it *shouldn’t* make *any* difference.

The fact that he is now going to read her differently now that she was forced to out her story surprises me. The fact that he recognized his own "hidden sexism" was good but that he's letting that decide how he perceives her is unfortunate. I think her story showed how even Online, often viewed as a gender neutral area, isn't that at all. And that even there more credence is given to men/masculine appearing individuals than to women (see technology discussions for further proof of this -- in another life, I faced this openly on one dramatic occasion but may have also faced it unknowingly since then). I recently taught a new course (last week) and was unsure of my ability to get the point across to the students. I suspect if I was still female-identified it would have been mentioned but since I come across as male (obviously white given the french name) I got huge kudos for a great class.

It's interesting that Online Interactions carry the misogyny, sexism, etc. just as much as it does in person. It's interesting that when I went to look at the B-F definition in Wikipedia for femme, it was defined by the perceived "masculine" attribute in relation to butch. (that is, it defined a butch and said that a femme was the opposite but didn't identify femme independent of butch). Why? Why do we insist on defining women in reference to men? Why can we not define them separate? IT is particularly conservative for this, unfortunately. We hear of the guys -- Gates, Torvalds, Wozniak, Jobs -- and maybe hear about Ada. But what of the other women who make up IT? Why aren't their histories more apparent? Like the founder of my company -- Diane Greene -- who is amazing creatively and person-wise. It gets back, I suspect, (as Theo mentions low) into the competition-aspect of things. If women are competitive, they are viewed as "bitches" rather than meeting men at the same level of competition.

Originally Posted by Andrew, Jr.

Linus,

<snipped for brevity>

In the Jewish faith, men hold the main tradition as being head of the household. It is expected that they work, bring home the money to support their family, and carry on all business of life & living. Women are really 2nd class citizens (Hysidic - spelling?). Now, you have known me, and Rosie and see our struggles. I don't work. I have to rely and depend on others for survival. Without that help, I don't survive. That is how it is.

That same treatment of husband being breadwinner and wife look after the house and being 2nd class citizens also happens in Christian households. I don't think it's religious specific as much as it's a learned behavior from previous experiences (e.g., if both partners experienced a house that matched the Cleavers, then they'll want to continue it).

As for flying...that is another story. I hate to fly. I am always, forever, and a day the one that is pulled aside, and practically have to undress for everyone and be wanded down. I still don't get it. Rosie takes on the role of taking on all the carry-on's, and handling the luggage, but I still get pulled over. Go figure.

I think if there was a more easier way to have your gender and name change be done, then we should be able to do it. I just think it is wrong on so many levels that every state is different in how this is processed. I really am liking the idea of a one card for everyone, including passport. That makes sense to me.

Straight white men have always been given the leaway in society. It makes me think that everyone else is discriminated against.

Great thread!

Love,
Andrew

The part I bolded is exactly what white male privilege is. It is what I (and apparently a few others here) do not want but will be given whether we want it or not. I personally want to go kicking and screaming into this process and continue working at breaking it down. I suspect it's used against you since, for some, you do not fit the perfect, neat image of WMP (White Male Privilege)

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

I don't know white male privilege.....yet. I haven't started T yet, but will be in the next few weeks. I am still treated like a second class citizen. Yes, I know a lot of things about being a woman. I know what it is like to be on the receiving end of male violence against women. I know what it is like to be seen purely as a sexual object by men. I know what it is like to be dismissed when expressing my ideas. I know what it is like to have a period too lol. I know what it is like for a woman to be raped by a man. I know what it is like to be on the receiving end of misogyny. I know all of these things and more, first hand.

I see misogyny directed at women and I cringe. I grew up seeing my mom be treated like shit by her boss for years. She has been sexually harassed on the job, treated like a dog, and come home from work crying on many occasions. She felt that she needed the job and couldn't quit, and felt trapped. It made me sick.

I am keenly aware of misogyny, and I hate it. I try so hard not to be a perpetrator, to show respect and kindness to all women. I know that a lot of femmes on this site feel the sting of misogyny from certain butches and transguys, and that blows me away. I don't understand how someone who grew up as a girl could forget what that is like and treat a woman so cruelly. It disgusts me, really it does.

If I may interject here -- and I will preface this that this doesn't necessarily make it so for all trans men -- , for some transmen, they hate their past and once it's gone, they ignore it. They do not want to remember it nor be reminded of it. We have to remember that each person (trans, cis, straight, queer, <insert identifying label here>, etc.) all have different experiences and see things differently. Some are so misogynist, and this is entirely my opinion of it, that they hated the women/female parts of themselves. They were, in effect (and against, IMO), misogynist to themselves for the longest time and remain so. So, to answer your question, it's probably easy for them because of that self-hatred of who they were.

As for male privilege, I anticipate it happening to me, and I already feel guilt about it, though I have not experienced it yet. Is that crazy or what? I fear the privilege. I don't want it. I fear it will change me and make me an asshole, make me expect and take advantage of it. I don't want that. I also fear that once I have it, that others in the community will see me as the enemy; that girls in particular will assume I am a misogynist pig and mistrust me. Being a male ID'd transguy, I already feel that mistrust here on this site. It saddens me greatly. I am not one of those misogynist boneheads, but I feel the burden they create nonetheless. I do not blame femmes for this, don't get me wrong. I blame the misogynist boneheads who treat femmes like second class citizens, who see them as less than, who treat them as an accessory and not as an equal, who don't really see and respect them for all the wonderful things that they are.

I don't know. *sigh* This whole privilege thing has me sad and feeling like my impending integration with my mind and body, my transition, isn't something to celebrate and feel good about. I feel glum to be honest. I don't want the privilege. I know I will do my best to be out about my trans status as much as I can after transition. I really don't know what else to say at this point.

It's not crazy. I actually went through the same thing and had discussions with K about this. Sometimes WMP will be assigned and you'll be given it whether you realize it or not. Everything I do, every reaction someone has when I teach, when I talk with people, I ask: did they react to me in that way because of WMP or because of me the person? Are they that way with all people, male, female, whatever? I think being hyper-aware and vigilant helps a lot. Questioning certainly does. There are no easy answers to this. All you can do is be a "man of integrity" and stand up when you see misogyny or other forms of WMP in action.

Originally Posted by little man

glad you started this thread, linus.

yessir, i've got the privilege. i haven't developed the sense of entitlement yet, though. at least i don't think i have.

i'm about 6.5 yrs into transition. has my life changed? boy howdy. on the one hand, i do feel badly about having all this crap just handed to me. on the other hand, it sure is a nice break from the "good ol' days". i try to temper the perks by making room for my female counterparts to be heard, to be seen, to be recognized. i call bullshit when i see it and i talk, talk, talk about things people say about women, ways they treat women, etc. i don't know that i've changed any minds, but i'm pretty sure i've planted a seed or two (i do these things around race, too).

i really don't know how to go about dismantling the privilege. i do try to be vigilant about not taking up more than my fair share of space and making sure the powers that be hear about the capabilities of my female counterparts.

mostly, i try to be a good man. i try to set the bar a little higher for what a man can and should be. a female coworker told me not long ago that she enjoys talking to me because i understand a lot of things and am willing to discuss emotional stuff. and everything is not about my dick or getting laid. i took that to mean i'm doing something right. i'm definitely doing something outside the normal experiences of her waking world.

i don't think there is a way to give back the privilege we gain. i do think there are ways to share it and have the platform to advance others. perhaps the answer lies in using it for the betterment of all, rather than getting myself or the other ol' boys further along.

Hrmm.. I think I disagree with the idea that privilege cannot be returned. I think that if we remove it from ourselves and open the place up for someone else to have it, it helps. (and that someone else has to be someone who is normally robbed of a chance because they do not have WMP). It does mean giving up something -- and it may be a painful something but maybe it is time to start.

Originally Posted by theoddz

Interesting that this topic should come up, because I was just discussing this with my coworker yesterday. I had been kind of "thinking aloud" in the office between rounds while we were sitting on our collective arses (ya, we do that..sometimes a LOT).

I'm still not totally used to, nor comfortable with receiving the benefits of male privilege in my world. I guess I spent too many years in a female skin, looking from the outside in, into an body and a world that I felt I should had and should have been part of, from the time I drew my first breaths. I've never forgotten, nor do I ever want to, the feeling that I had to justify my opinions, my actions, my professionalism, whathaveyou...because of the body I was born in to. Looking at it now, I can see the behaviors that cause feelings of being "second class" and it causes a sinking, sickening feeling in my gut. If I don't like that feeling, and I certainly don't....why would anyone else??

I think this highlights the difference between those who were born into WMP from the start and know nothing different from those who embrace that part of their past (particularly those transmen who do that -- again, IMO) and reject WMP as the modus operandi.

<snip for brevity>

I need to combine listening to my sisters' voices with the charge of my own manhood. Share limelight, instead of just taking it. Does that make sense??

I think there is a gracious way of handling privilege. You share it by shifting it over to others, and that's what I do in my job and whenever/wherever I can. I have found that, especially when I'm around other (cis) men, this is something that's not easy to do, because most guys seem to always be clamoring for their own masculinity amongst other males, and this is even more true for us men who have had to transition and find our own place amongst our (cis) brothers. But, when a question is aimed at me, whether or not I recognize it or not as being due to my maleness, I defer to my female colleagues (in the work environment, for example) and get them to offer their input. I try to make it a point to actively insert them and take the focus of "unique male credibility" off of myself. When there have been other (cis) males around, I seem to always get those looks that seem to convey both disbelief and a bit of anger/betrayal that a fellow male would defer to the females. So there's peer pressure to exclude, too. I think that tearing down privilege is a lot about sharing empowerment. It's about public rejection, in a lot of ways, I think. If you refuse to take it for your own....if you have the guts to turn it down...then you can dismantle it, chunk by chunk. I just think that that is sometimes hard for the average person to do because, by nature, many of us are so self-focused. As transmen/FtMs, we're just not used to having it, and when it is finally granted to us and we're accepted into "The Boys' Club", it's like having walked through a desert and finally being offered a drink of water. We're there. We've arrived. We're finally accepted.....and we'll do anything it takes to keep it that way, even if it's wrong and keeping it means that we have to keep up status quo at the expense of those who are still being denied.

Thanks for this thread. I think this needs to be discussed.

Respectfully,
~Theo~

I do agree that it needs to be dismantled, chunk by chunk. But I do also suspect that for some transmen it is the oasis in a desert of misunderstanding of their life. And when they feel like they have found a place to belong, they want to stay there and fight. You are correct at that. There are times when I feel like that (e.g., cigar events -- very male privileged but not as white as historically it has been).


I do want to thank everyone who is participating as both posters and readers. I think a lot more discussion has to be done for both the in person and online venues to help dismantle this in the long run, long term. I know that I will be long gone well before it's resolved.. But I don't want to wait until then before trying to start this in life.

[Selenay]

Some links that may be interesting for those participating in this discussion:

Stick figures, and stick figures who parent


Default avatars: a collection


Dockers defines manhood as anti-everything except dirt and patriarchy


Semenya's makeover: gender as performance

[Linus]

Originally Posted by Selenay

Some links that may be interesting for those participating in this discussion:

Stick figures, and stick figures who parent


Default avatars: a collection


Dockers defines manhood as anti-everything except dirt and patriarchy


Semenya's makeover: gender as performance

Awesome links, Selenay. It definitely highlights the over-abundance of attention towards the male purchaser or male person in advertising or signage. Perpetuating the image that woman equals housewife or parent continues a misogynist skew in advertising. I remember a guy I knew who took offense at a commercial that showed the woman smarter than the guy and showed him as being rather dumbfounded about something. He fault that no one should be shown as smarter than the other. And yet, when the reverse was displayed (often showing a woman unable to make a decision or otherwise downplayed in some fashion) he didn't voice this as vehemently.

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2009/10/25/13729/114 <--- someone also sent me this. It's interesting that in this form of insurance (at least in Colorado) woman are forced to pay more while car insurance has men pay more (although it is, in part, due to statistics showing that men -- particularly younger ones -- are more likely to cause accidents and get speeding tickets). Gender-rating is actually banned in a few states but only a few. (11 in total). This idea that women go more often may be true (men are often told to suck it up and "be a man"), it doesn't mean that they should pay 50% more or be denied health care because of a previous condition like domestic violence (uh... HELLO?!).

[little man]

snipped, as this is the response i'm interested in....

Originally Posted by Linus

Hrmm.. I think I disagree with the idea that privilege cannot be returned. I think that if we remove it from ourselves and open the place up for someone else to have it, it helps. (and that someone else has to be someone who is normally robbed of a chance because they do not have WMP). It does mean giving up something -- and it may be a painful something but maybe it is time to start.

linus, i'd be interested in hearing how it is we can return privilege. this has troubled me for some time now and i've not been able to figure out how to give it back, or not take it at all. i have tried to use the privilege i get to help others, but haven't noodled out a way to give it back. could you elaborate on this, please?

i'm also curious about the "painful something" to give up.

thanks

[Linus]

Originally Posted by little man

snipped, as this is the response i'm interested in....


linus, i'd be interested in hearing how it is we can return privilege. this has troubled me for some time now and i've not been able to figure out how to give it back, or not take it at all. i have tried to use the privilege i get to help others, but haven't noodled out a way to give it back. could you elaborate on this, please?

i'm also curious about the "painful something" to give up.

thanks

Well, the painful will depend on your point of view. Imagine you apply for a job to do magic widgets and you are doing a group interview. You are excited about this because you've been out of work for over a year, are about to be evicted and this job could help put you back on track for life. In addition to you being interviewed, there is also a MOC, a WOC and a white woman. All four of you are up for this job. You are being interviewed by the CEO and Board of Directors, all white males. As you go through the interview, you slowly realize that you aren't really qualified for it and that the others are more qualified, particularly the POC woman.

But at the end of the interview the interviewers have decided and they offer the job to you. It pays $100,000 and you only work 8 hours a week. Do you take it, knowing that the only reason you got it was due to do WMP, or do you turn it down and strongly recommend that they hire the WOC? It would be painful to turn down and potentially damaging to your pride to turn this down but it is the right thing to do. Additionally, it would also be the right thing to point out that they really should hire WOC and that if they do not, that you will file a complaint about their discriminatory behaviour. You choose to do this path even knowing that you'll be on the street shortly. But further to this you continue to work towards ensure that the magic widget industry never continues this behaviour. It results in CEOs and BoD compositions change to represent more of a cross-section of the US rather than the "good ol' boys" club. Further, you ensure that a law is passed that enforces a moratorium on the hiring of white males. It, in facts, says that you must hire a POC period, regardless of anything else.

Although extreme in the example, the end result would be effectively removing the WMP and tilting the balance towards others. Does that help?



For reference:

WMP - White Male Privilege
MOC - Man of Color
WOC - Woman of Color
POC - Person of Color

[little man]

Originally Posted by Linus

Well, the painful will depend on your point of view. Imagine you apply for a job to do magic widgets and you are doing a group interview. You are excited about this because you've been out of work for over a year, are about to be evicted and this job could help put you back on track for life. In addition to you being interviewed, there is also a MOC, a WOC and a white woman. All four of you are up for this job. You are being interviewed by the CEO and Board of Directors, all white males. As you go through the interview, you slowly realize that you aren't really qualified for it and that the others are more qualified, particularly the POC woman.

But at the end of the interview the interviewers have decided and they offer the job to you. It pays $100,000 and you only work 8 hours a week. Do you take it, knowing that the only reason you got it was due to do WMP, or do you turn it down and strongly recommend that they hire the WOC? It would be painful to turn down and potentially damaging to your pride to turn this down but it is the right thing to do. Additionally, it would also be the right thing to point out that they really should hire WOC and that if they do not, that you will file a complaint about their discriminatory behaviour. You choose to do this path even knowing that you'll be on the street shortly. But further to this you continue to work towards ensure that the magic widget industry never continues this behaviour. It results in CEOs and BoD compositions change to represent more of a cross-section of the US rather than the "good ol' boys" club. Further, you ensure that a law is passed that enforces a moratorium on the hiring of white males. It, in facts, says that you must hire a POC period, regardless of anything else.

Although extreme in the example, the end result would be effectively removing the WMP and tilting the balance towards others. Does that help?



For reference:

WMP - White Male Privilege
MOC - Man of Color
WOC - Woman of Color
POC - Person of Color

in theory, yes, i understand. i was looking for a more realistic example, though. can you give me something that's a little closer to real life? i realize it's going to be more mundane that 100K for 8 hrs of work, but i'm looking for a starting point to work from.

as a side note, your example brings to mind some class issues. i also wonder if it is necessary to do oneself harm to help others? i'm not far enough into my coffee this morning to be more coherent. i can take another run at this later in the day, when the synapses are firing more efficiently, if that helps.

ETA: lest i sound unwilling to help affect change, i want to say that i don't mind making sacrifices or doing with less. i'm accustomed to that. and i'm willing to help pretty much anyone i can. i don't know if i would accept a job i'm not qualified for...i dislike personal failure quite a bit. am i willing to give up my seat at the table so someone else can eat? you bet. am i willing to starve myself to death? i dunno about that.

[Bob]

Originally Posted by little man

as a side note, your example brings to mind some class issues. i also wonder if it is necessary to do oneself harm to help others?

Well, and that's a good point. I'm inclined to find Linus' example of 'giving back privilege' a tad on the "Here I come to save the day for you, poor lil women of color!" side of the spectrum. Patronizing and condescending.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by Bob

Well, and that's a good point. I'm inclined to find Linus' example of 'giving back privilege' a tad on the "Here I come to save the day for you, poor lil women of color!" side of the spectrum. Patronizing and condescending.

That wasn't the intent or meaning of it. If that is how it appeared, then I apologize for a poor example. The intent and idea behind the example was more that a person should be chosen on ability and not because they are one of the good ol' boys. It's not to say that the WOC wouldn't be able to speak up or stand up for herself. If I said that the white male was told of the job offer after others left, then no one else would have been aware. In that instance, the offer is made based entirely on WMP and the rejection the offer is/would be a rejection of WMP.


little man: haven't forgotten your request. Just trying to see if I can think of a better example.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by little man

am i willing to give up my seat at the table so someone else can eat? you bet. am i willing to starve myself to death? i dunno about that.

Thank you, as ever, for your thoughtfulness as much as your sincerity, Wil.

What troubles me in your scenario, Linus, is that, were I the woman on the receiving end of this "giving back privilege" exercise (and as a woman, I might be), it would be important to me that any "privilege" handed down to me were wiped clean of well, privilege. It could only and necessarily be about merit in order that I feel you were honest in your efforts to level the field. I don't want your hand out. Nor do I want you doing a personal disservice to yourself in order that I might get what is rightfully mine. Stop agreeing to lie down in puddles so that my feet stay dry. I don't need a white knight. What I need is for you to speak frankly about systems of inequality when you see them, and to engage in right action when you find yourself working from within those systems by joining your voice with my voice whenever and however you can.

Originally Posted by Bob

Well, and that's a good point. I'm inclined to find Linus' example of 'giving back privilege' a tad on the "Here I come to save the day for you, poor lil women of color!" side of the spectrum. Patronizing and condescending.

Case in point.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by Linus

That wasn't the intent or meaning of it. If that is how it appeared, then I apologize for a poor example. The intent and idea behind the example was more that a person should be chosen on ability and not because they are one of the good ol' boys. It's not to say that the WOC wouldn't be able to speak up or stand up for herself. If I said that the white male was told of the job offer after others left, then no one else would have been aware. In that instance, the offer is made based entirely on WMP and the rejection the offer is/would be a rejection of WMP.


little man: haven't forgotten your request. Just trying to see if I can think of a better example.

I understand your intention wasn't to be demeaning in this way - that it is only positive. The intention of Affirmative Action was a positive one, as well, and in all the ways that it did and does work, it's still good, but a lot of people it is meant to serve come away with a very negative feeling. They do not ever wish to be seen as having merely been hired to meet a quota. Privileged groups and racist others will believe this is why, no matter what.

It feels good to say, "No, you accept the position because you are more qualified," but in a system that has, for so long, taught us that women and people of color, et al, cannot possibly be more qualified (and has ensured the unlikelihood they will be), it will continue to ring disingenuous.

What needs to happen, instead, is that the ground becomes more level. Not because individual men lie down and flatten themselves, but because everyone participates in the razing of the old institutions and thinking that has made the ground so steep in the past.

[Linus]

Little man: I've been rethinking this all day to see if I could come up with a more realistic example but have been unable. And considering as well the other comments, I've been reconsidering my comment. I'm beginning to think that the ability to remove WMP and give it to others may be too optimistic by me. So I apologize for the disagreement of privilege being returned. I think I'll be thinking about this more over the holidays to see if I can come to a better idea or concept of how to address this, particularly from a personal point of view.


Thank you to everyone for the comments and pointing out the patronizing attitude/idea I had come up with. It is, to me, a sign of my own privilege that comes through at times and a realization as to the amount of self-work I still need to yet do. I am very grateful that I am, at least, able to muddle my way through it and hopefully figure it out at some point.

And thank for participating in this thread.

[Linus]

I have to thank Heart for mention Paul Kivel. He has some interesting articles on privilge (http://www.paulkivel.com/articles.php). Although 10 years old, the article Angry Young White Men is certainly interesting. It does highlight something that should be changed: how we educate young people on the history of this continent. It shouldn't be from the PoV of the conqueror but of all. Zinn's History of America comes to mind.