Reclaiming Lesbian Pride

[citybutch]

Hey Chazz.... I totally get what you are saying here... and really appreciate it!

One thing I just want to note ( and a small note at that), Mary Daly really didn't put a lot of emphasis on lesbianism, hers or others. That was rather immaterial to her. She cared about women... plain and simple. The connections she felt were the woman connections steeped in Background and Leaping Connections.

"lesbian schmesbian" as she would say....

Originally Posted by Chazz

I don't feel alone. I'm blessed to have a strong Feminist and lesbian IDed women's community online and off. Truly blessed.

As to the "Reclaiming of Lesbian Pride".... I've come to realizations about that based on this thread and discussions with friends about it.

The Lesbian Pride I remember was a collective, mutually empowering celebration of female commonality and lived experience as lesbian women. One's social strata, race, background didn't matter. We held certain basic tenets in common: We were woman-centric, and personally/politically mobilized to fight against women's oppression and homophobia.

This mobilization and activism did NOT come at small cost. Patriarchy was not as accepting of uppity women or uncloseted lesbians in those days. Many of us were struggling to feed our children, ourselves, find and keep jobs, keep life and limb together, deal with homophobic families and friends - AND - exorcise our internalized sex-based gender mandates, patriarchal values and internalized homophobia. Things that don't seem to matter much anymore.

Yes, we looked forward to celebrating Lesbian Pride - formerly and informally. Those celebrations were the rare occasions when we could come together in our lesbian womanhood unsupervised, or penalized. It was powerful and empowering - heady stuff, indeed.

The days of Lesbian Pride based in shared, lived experience and commonality of purpose are, I suspect, over for good.... People can't even agree on what "female" or "lesbian" means, anymore.

How then, do woman IDed lesbians celebrate pride in our shared identity or lesbian HERitage? ....I suppose "we" could do a performance-based exercise in Lesbian Pride. Or, we could attend the Butch Voices conference and hope for a workshop or two that speaks to "our" lives.... Or, "we" could turn on the LOGO channel and hope for a show on woman IDed lesbians. They are few and far between these days, almost non-existent. It's pretty much trans everything, all the time, even there.... All of that is a poor substitute for the Lesbian Pride I remember.

Yep, we're pretty much marginalized these days - yesterday's news. Dinosaurs even. But dang, I'm not old yet and I remember the power and the passion, and the pride. I even remember how easy it was to meet a perspective partner who shared my Feminist sensibilities. Now, we're all sequestered in solitude, or endogenous communities, perusing online dating sites.

Yep, things sure have changed.... I understand that there are now infinite possible combinations of genitalia, clothing, mannerisms, sexuality, labels and roles within the neoLGBTQ "community". I understand that. Don't care much about it either way, really....

What I do care about is that I now have to put quotation marks around my identity - lesbian.... I care about the marginalizing/invisiblizing/censoring of lesbian women and Feminists.... I care about the appropriation and the presumption to naming others (including butch me) that is tolerated, even justified by many.... I care about the "good-girlism going on the LGBTQ community. The care-taking by "lesbians" of everybody but lesbians.... I care that all of this is being done in the name of "ally-ship".... This is not a politic I take pride in.

"We may recall some of the message of Mary Daly’s Gyn/Ecology (1984). A great deal of the machinery of men’s oppression and exploitation of women is mechanism by which women’s own energies and resources are turned against us [and one another], to suppress our spirits, cloud our judgment and consume us. And one of the most effective devices for this is the construction and manipulation of good and evil. It is a complex strategy. One part is the identification of certain things as good and others as evil-the naming of vices and virtues, and of sins. These are falsely and deceptively named. Almost anything that would strengthen or empower us or inspire us with the spirit of rebellion will be named “evil” or “sinful.” - Marilyn Frye

For me, Lesbian Pride is in large part about rebellion. It's not about exchanging one dogma for another, or embracing unfathomable theories authored by academics chasing tenure who are, admittedly or not, male-values-centric. Especially, not when said theory in NO tangible way addresses women's oppression. There are so few of us addressing women's oppression these days to begin with.

Off to start a rebellion....

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

ALH:

I've become convinced that until we get over identity politics, this kind of discussion will continue to dog us. However good the intentions might have been, identity politics has been a bog we have gotten sucked into. Now we're lost in it and all we can manage to do is come up with ever ramifying identity labels as if the fact that we did not know we were X was the actual problem facing us. I've grown weary of it.

I don't see how educating ourselves about our identities will actually help us because that won't get us past two *really* dysfunctional things we do: the first is that we assume the worst. It's not that white women in the community might not have thought about black women or what-have-you. No, in OUR community it is that white lesbians are irredeemably racist and, given half a chance, would love to see black women destroyed. That's the *first* interpretation. And we tell ourselves that we are doing this in the name of liberation. Poppycock! We're doing it because it is easier to take the worst interpretation than it is to step back and reflect on other possible causes. The other thing we do is that every time a new identity pops into existence, we have to go through vocabulary angst. First we define the new identity. Then we decide that since this identity name points out the difference between that group and all the other human beings who are *NOT* part of that group we have to come up with a term that describes everyone else.

The most obvious example is cisgendered. It is an entirely pointless word. It really is. It was created as a way of 'evening the playing field' with transgendered people. This was nominally necessary because talking about transwomen or transmen was somehow not empowering because it assumed that men and women who were *not* transgendered were the default. So now we have this term cisgendered so that transpeople can be empowered to live our lives. Except it does no such thing. The thing is these linguistic Rube Goldberg devices are moving targets anyway. So, transwoman or transman is supposed to be a sign that someone doesn't think of transgendered people as 'real' men or 'real' women so we come up with a neologism because THAT will change things. Except that once everyone adopts whatever term then THAT becomes the descriptor that is responsible for our oppression so we have to come up with another term and so on.

It's like the deckchair feng shui that the black community goes through about once a generation. My grandmother was colored. My parents were negroes. I was black. My son was African American. My granddaughter is a person of color (i.e. colored). Yay! We've come full circle. Does anyone here believe that the *reason* Barack Obama was elected President was because he was African American and not a negro? Anyone?

This subject has me really exercised so I'm going to sign off but I want to leave you with this thought:

"Equality in spite of evident nonidentity is a somewhat sophisticated concept and requires a moral stature of which many individuals seem to be incapable. They rather deny human variability and equate equality with identity. Or they claim that the human species is exceptional in the organic world in that only morphological characters are controlled by genes and all other traits of the mind or character are due to “conditioning” or other nongenetic factors. Such authors conveniently ignore the results of twin studies and of the genetic analysis of nonmorphological traits in animals. An ideology based on such obviously wrong premises can only lead to disaster. Its championship of human equality is based on a claim of identity. As soon as it is proved that the latter does not exist, the support of equality is likewise lost." (Steven Pinker quoting W.D. Hamilton in The Blank Slate)

The evil I see is not that as a black lesbian I have rights that derive BECAUSE I'm a black lesbian and I am denied those rights. Rather, I see it that as a member of Homo sapiens I have certain rights which I am denied BECAUSE I'm a black lesbian. My rights should not hinge upon this or that identity. I have no rights that should be granted because of my identity and *all* my rights are such that I should not be denied ANY of them because of my identity. To the degree that I am treated accordingly, I experience that as justice.

Cheers
Aj

I am weary, too and a shift from identity politics could serve us well if we will just see how it is getting us nowhere. What you state here hits so many nails on the head that I so wish we could move on to that could get us out of the non-productive wheel-spinning we do.

My education comment had more to do with how often I see that many don't even do cursory investigations of literature that is readily available to all of us and a means to better understand who we all are. And that said- how are the publishing possibilities going for you? You have to get your work out there!1

[Kobi]

This thread keeps going round and round in not very productive ways.

I will say again its intent was for lesbians who are females who partner with other females to have a place to discuss stuff related to our lives, experiences, concerns. That includes feminism and all it encompasses.

In a mixed community I expected there would be some flack, some obstruction, and derailing. It is not comfortable to discuss womens issues these days. Funky defensive stuff is the natural result of trying to do so.

My issue here is, as a female, lesbian who sleeps with other women, we should have a place to go and talk without it being continuous derailed, obstructed, or turned in various discussions of interest to other groups in the queer community. How many times have I said this now? How many more times do I have to?

If I went into the trans threads and injected my lesbian way into every conversation, or the femme threads and interjected my butch point of view repeatedly, I would be handed my head. It would be rude, disrespectful, and just a tad annoying. But, it's ok to do it here?

It is ok for everyone else to trot in here and shove their concept of what my reality is supposed to be in my face? Do you think you might learn something if you actually LISTENED to my reality before refuting it in favor of your own?

This type of interference behavior is a defensive posture. Lesbians like me, wanting space, is very threatening to others. Has to be or we wouldn't keep ending up in the same freakin place everytime. The object of the behavior is to stop whatever is being discussed because it is too threatening. Dont take my word for it, look back your self.

It is easier for us to get caught up in terminology and id's than it is to discuss the trials and tribulation of being a woman and a lesbian these days. It is an avoidance tactic. We cant discuss anything of importance as long as we are fighting about the definition of lesbian ad infinitum.

This thread is not about trans issues but trans issues seem to become the prevailing focus. Check back. A little head of steam about woman focused stuff gets started and wham! someone changes it to a trans focus. It is a pattern. It repeats over and over.

It seems it is safer for some to talk from what appears to be a heteronormative perspective than it is to talk from a woman focused, homosexual, womans space perspective. It's a throw back to the early days of feminism, you know when lesbians were a danger.

It is easier, it seems, to change the focus to trans issues than it is to deal with misogyny in our community or the many ways in which women screw over other women. It is much either to deal with trans issues than it is to deal with pro women issues.

These are the same tactics I saw used back in the 60's and 70's by women against other women. Women frightened to look at their lives. Women afraid of many things. It is sad to see the same tactics used decades later. Maybe we havent come such a long way baby. Always hated that commercial.

And Heart, for the last time, my perception of your flip flopping has nothing to do with your self identity. It has to do with the topic being about the color blue and you injecting one on yellow. Head in the direction of yellow and you change it to orange. Go with orange and you change it to silver.

In the beginning I gave you the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps you were trying to sort out things like the rest of us, or were trying to be diplomatic or were more comfortable straddling the fence.

But, last night, when you did it, it made me think that you were making John Kerry look decisive. Hence the flip flop comment. For the last time, there is nothing there about who you sleep with or your definition of lesbian - except as it is of your own making.

Aj, again, this is not a tread about trans anything. It is about pro woman. But being pro women is automatically equated with being anti trans. Same dynamics from decades ago when feminism was seen as anti men not pro women. It is very hard to talk about pro women without looking at the many ways women are oppressed by men.

[dreadgeek]

Kobi:

I was simply using cisgendered as an example of something we do in the community that, in fact, divert us from more useful ends. I was not trying to derail the thread into trans territory again. No purpose is served by that. I would've liked to have seen this thread be a thread about how we, as lesbians, can keep lesbian culture alive. Lesbian culture made me the woman I am today and I think that if we let it die, then we will have a poorer world for it! That is what I was hoping this thread would be about.

I think that thread would be useful. I think that topic can be discussed without even ONCE having to divert into all of this other stuff that is not, in fact, about preserving lesbian culture so that if my granddaughter should happen to grow up and be a woman-loving-woman her generation won't have to feel like they are reinventing the wheel. That, to me, is a conversation worth having. I am, for the purposes of that conversation, willing to show up and do my part presuming that 'woman' is large enough to include a woman like me which is how I initially entered into this conversation.

Cheers
Aj

Originally Posted by Kobi

This thread keeps going round and round in not very productive ways.

I will say again its intent was for lesbians who are females who partner with other females to have a place to discuss stuff related to our lives, experiences, concerns. That includes feminism and all it encompasses.

In a mixed community I expected there would be some flack, some obstruction, and derailing. It is not comfortable to discuss womens issues these days. Funky defensive stuff is the natural result of trying to do so.

My issue here is, as a female, lesbian who sleeps with other women, we should have a place to go and talk without it being continuous derailed, obstructed, or turned in various discussions of interest to other groups in the queer community. How many times have I said this now? How many more times do I have to?

If I went into the trans threads and injected my lesbian way into every conversation, or the femme threads and interjected my butch point of view repeatedly, I would be handed my head. It would be rude, disrespectful, and just a tad annoying. But, it's ok to do it here?

It is ok for everyone else to trot in here and shove their concept of what my reality is supposed to be in my face? Do you think you might learn something if you actually LISTENED to my reality before refuting it in favor of your own?

This type of interference behavior is a defensive posture. Lesbians like me, wanting space, is very threatening to others. Has to be or we wouldn't keep ending up in the same freakin place everytime. The object of the behavior is to stop whatever is being discussed because it is too threatening. Dont take my word for it, look back your self.

It is easier for us to get caught up in terminology and id's than it is to discuss the trials and tribulation of being a woman and a lesbian these days. It is an avoidance tactic. We cant discuss anything of importance as long as we are fighting about the definition of lesbian ad infinitum.

This thread is not about trans issues but trans issues seem to become the prevailing focus. Check back. A little head of steam about woman focused stuff gets started and wham! someone changes it to a trans focus. It is a pattern. It repeats over and over.

It seems it is safer for some to talk from what appears to be a heteronormative perspective than it is to talk from a woman focused, homosexual, womans space perspective. It's a throw back to the early days of feminism, you know when lesbians were a danger.

It is easier, it seems, to change the focus to trans issues than it is to deal with misogyny in our community or the many ways in which women screw over other women. It is much either to deal with trans issues than it is to deal with pro women issues.

These are the same tactics I saw used back in the 60's and 70's by women against other women. Women frightened to look at their lives. Women afraid of many things. It is sad to see the same tactics used decades later. Maybe we havent come such a long way baby. Always hated that commercial.

And Heart, for the last time, my perception of your flip flopping has nothing to do with your self identity. It has to do with the topic being about the color blue and you injecting one on yellow. Head in the direction of yellow and you change it to orange. Go with orange and you change it to silver.

In the beginning I gave you the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps you were trying to sort out things like the rest of us, or were trying to be diplomatic or were more comfortable straddling the fence.

But, last night, when you did it, it made me think that you were making John Kerry look decisive. Hence the flip flop comment. For the last time, there is nothing there about who you sleep with or your definition of lesbian - except as it is of your own making.

Aj, again, this is not a tread about trans anything. It is about pro woman. But being pro women is automatically equated with being anti trans. Same dynamics from decades ago when feminism was seen as anti men not pro women. It is very hard to talk about pro women without looking at the many ways women are oppressed by men.

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by Kobi

This thread keeps going round and round in not very productive ways.

I will say again its intent was for lesbians who are females who partner with other females to have a place to discuss stuff related to our lives, experiences, concerns. That includes feminism and all it encompasses.

In a mixed community I expected there would be some flack, some obstruction, and derailing. It is not comfortable to discuss womens issues these days. Funky defensive stuff is the natural result of trying to do so.

My issue here is, as a female, lesbian who sleeps with other women, we should have a place to go and talk without it being continuous derailed, obstructed, or turned in various discussions of interest to other groups in the queer community. How many times have I said this now? How many more times do I have to?

If I went into the trans threads and injected my lesbian way into every conversation, or the femme threads and interjected my butch point of view repeatedly, I would be handed my head. It would be rude, disrespectful, and just a tad annoying. But, it's ok to do it here?

It is ok for everyone else to trot in here and shove their concept of what my reality is supposed to be in my face? Do you think you might learn something if you actually LISTENED to my reality before refuting it in favor of your own?

This type of interference behavior is a defensive posture. Lesbians like me, wanting space, is very threatening to others. Has to be or we wouldn't keep ending up in the same freakin place everytime. The object of the behavior is to stop whatever is being discussed because it is too threatening. Dont take my word for it, look back your self.

It is easier for us to get caught up in terminology and id's than it is to discuss the trials and tribulation of being a woman and a lesbian these days. It is an avoidance tactic. We cant discuss anything of importance as long as we are fighting about the definition of lesbian ad infinitum.

This thread is not about trans issues but trans issues seem to become the prevailing focus. Check back. A little head of steam about woman focused stuff gets started and wham! someone changes it to a trans focus. It is a pattern. It repeats over and over.

It seems it is safer for some to talk from what appears to be a heteronormative perspective than it is to talk from a woman focused, homosexual, womans space perspective. It's a throw back to the early days of feminism, you know when lesbians were a danger.

It is easier, it seems, to change the focus to trans issues than it is to deal with misogyny in our community or the many ways in which women screw over other women. It is much either to deal with trans issues than it is to deal with pro women issues.

These are the same tactics I saw used back in the 60's and 70's by women against other women. Women frightened to look at their lives. Women afraid of many things. It is sad to see the same tactics used decades later. Maybe we havent come such a long way baby. Always hated that commercial.

And Heart, for the last time, my perception of your flip flopping has nothing to do with your self identity. It has to do with the topic being about the color blue and you injecting one on yellow. Head in the direction of yellow and you change it to orange. Go with orange and you change it to silver.

In the beginning I gave you the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps you were trying to sort out things like the rest of us, or were trying to be diplomatic or were more comfortable straddling the fence.

But, last night, when you did it, it made me think that you were making John Kerry look decisive. Hence the flip flop comment. For the last time, there is nothing there about who you sleep with or your definition of lesbian - except as it is of your own making.

Aj, again, this is not a tread about trans anything. It is about pro woman. But being pro women is automatically equated with being anti trans. Same dynamics from decades ago when feminism was seen as anti men not pro women. It is very hard to talk about pro women without looking at the many ways women are oppressed by men.

Kobi,

I respect your wanting to have a place to discuss Lesbian pride and Lesbian culture. And when the topics have stuck to those things, I have stayed out of the thread. However, that has not been the only topic discussed here, and some things have been said that I consider VERY relevant to trans people and how they fit into the queer community. I will give you some specific examples to back up this claim:

Chazz said:

How about jettisoning the concept of gender entirely? I know, it's a lot to get ones brain around. Patriarchy is counting on that.

And:

SEX (biology) = female/male, woman/man, girl/boy (nouns)

GENDER (a cultural construct based on sex) = feminine/masculine, womanly/manly, girlish/boyish (adjectives)

And,

Gender theory DOES promote a binary system. It "sanctions" going from point A on a binary scale to point Z. Everything in between is a matter of gender constructed degree.

No, Slater.... Adult females will always be women.

It doesn't matter if a gender system is binary or not. Gender mythology is the issue. Having 10,000 variations of a myth doesn't change the fact that it's a myth, especially when it comes to patriarchy. (Patriarchy is very adaptable.)

Slater said:

But it is also used as a gender identity. At one time, and still pervasively, sex and gender were used interchangeably as though they were one and the same. But if you allow for a non-binary gender system, then you have to allow for the possibility that there will be adult females who are not women, who are, for instance, butch.

The language of sex and gender has been so tightly interwoven, so tightly tied to a binary system, that trying to pull them apart can create these sorts of usage stumbling blocks.

And Heart said:

Your description of what trans men and women may experience via gender dysphoria combined with misogyny and violence is poignant, and actually reinforces my point about the importance of under-girding gender/queer/trans theory with feminism, but it strikes me that you are the one creating an oppression olympics by implying that transfolks somehow experience the pinnacle of oppression. Maybe, maybe not. How would you compare the experiences of a white transman with a lesbian of color? Not that we should compare, but do you see my point?

I get that cutting edge scholarship is about multiple gender presentations and identities being recognized and I think that's valid, I just wish it had not been so separated from feminist theory. I don't disagree that an individual has the right to choose their label, (one of the central tenets of gender theory), but asserting that continues to miss the point (that I think I tried to make) of what a privileged position it is to self-label. Why am I saying that? Not to dismiss self-identity, but to remember that the extraordinary majority of women do not have that option, in fact do not have any options with regard to any kind of self-actualization, including who or if they will marry, and whether or not they will control their own reproduction.

And she said this:

I also agree that identity is personal, but I see a definite relationship between misogyny and the undervaluing of woman in terms of social, systemic, and academic trends related to identity. Plus I have a personal reaction to what I have seen in my own communities about people's decisions to jettison their identities as women, and I shared that.

And this:

What agitates me is not whether a lesbian sleeps with a man. What agitates me is the loss of people identifying as women in favor of trans/gender-queer/3rd-4th-5th gender identities. That's what gets to me. Since most of those abandoning the id of woman are in queer communities, it gets discussed in terms of queer identities, but for me, it's not the creation of ever newer and shinier queer identities, it's the lack of grounding in woman/female/feminism that makes me feel angry, afraid, and alone.

Now do I feel threatened when lesbians talk about lesbian pride and lesbian culture? Not even a little. I think lesbians are great. (I even used to ID that way before I got a better understanding of myself. I didn't transition because I hated lesbians. I don't. I transitioned because of who I am, not who I don't want to be.) But the things I quoted above are not about lesbian pride or lesbian culture. They are talking about gender and ID politics. These are things written by, according to my understanding, people who identify as lesbians. And they are talking about things that directly relate to trans identities. As a transguy, I have something to say about them because they are, in part, about people like me. If you folks talk about things that directly relate to trans identities, do I not, as a transguy, have a right to respond?

And, I have seen some nasty comments made and I decided to speak up about it. I was not responding as a transguy when I spoke up, I was speaking as a member of the human race.

[Medusa]

This is something I'd also like for you to consider, Kobi:

This conversation has not been solely about Lesbian pride or the politics of women. Many weavings have interlaced back to the (same) gender conversation we are having now and have had now for 10+years on these B/F sites.

I want to address what you said about "If I took my Lesbian identity to a Trans thread...". That is not what is happening here. Transmen and Male-identified Butches have not infiltrated this conversation to start preaching their identity politics. From my perspective, people have mostly respectfully read along and interjected when something pertains to them...and this conversation has circled Trans issues almost constantly.

The reason I bring this up is because (and I'll reiterate this), a "safe" zone for Lesbians on a site that has a large population of many different Queer identities does not mean that anyone who identifies as a Lesbian gets to have a private (but public) thread to tease apart Trans or any other identity while all of the Trans or any other identity are expected to sit back and watch with tape over their mouths. Especially given some of the dialog here that has attempted (whether intentionally or ignorantly) to paint Trans women as "not real".

And I would offer that you would probably be pretty uncomfortable if Trans men made a thread entitled "Reclaiming Trans Pride" that went almost 500 posts deep where Trans folks wanted to talk about how Lesbians had victimized them or acted badly once at MWMF or had made them feel unsafe or how their gender construct was invalid for whatever reason.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not at all saying that I don't want these conversations to happen. I think we need to talk about what it is that makes people so fearful of one another that we keep clinging to stereotypes or unilateral thinking that results in "Im a victim, You're the oppressor" or "In order for me to be safe/heard/visible/valid, someone else needs to be excluded from the conversation."
(and theses aren't meant as absolutes, I'm thinking as I type)

Perhaps I'm feeling raw from having visited another forum specifically and explicitly for Lesbians and seeing the entire front page of one of their forums with 50% of the threads devoted to Trans identities and various ways that they are wrong/unsafe/intrusive/etc. etc. etc.

Because in my world, pride in our shared history means we aren't "foxhole bonding" over who we perceive to be a common enemy. This isn't to say we shouldn't discuss oppression, because that is certainly part of our history, but our history is not our oppression. Our history is also the things we have accomplished, the ways we have empowered and uplifted one another, and the celebration of each other as women.

[Toughy]

I am a butch female woman kind of lesbian, dyke, female homosexual. I have also had (GASP) good sex with biomen. Sex is sex and pair bonding is pair bonding. Both are fluid things in my almost 60 years on the planet. Granted in the last 30 years my sexual and pair bonding has been exclusively with femmes.

Like Heart I sometimes really do believe it was a choice to have sex and pair bond with women (as adult females) and femmes. Had I chosen to pair bond with men I would be a women's basketball coach at the college or professional level. I chose differently and I am happy with my choice. I have made a huge difference in the world in a different way than as a women's basketball coach.

Fuck the gold star toaster oven test.........please take your stuff and put it with Michelle Bachman and the rest of the fundamentalist monotheist patriarchal folks.

I am proud to be a big ole fucking dyke.............lesbian as this thread defines it. I have no use for anyone who tells me I can not be a lesbian who has pride just because I liked sex and almost married a bioman once upon a time.

Kobi.........this thread keeps going round and round because many of us here don't fit or agree with your definition of what lesbian and lesbian pride means. You can have your reality of lesbian and lesbian pride......guess what I get mine also and they are not the same at all in any way. I defended you once when you first came here. I hoped your learning curve would catch up.........in my mind it has not.

I want and need lesbian space, women space. My version is inclusive and yours is exclusive..........yours is a tiny world that has no room for growth and inclusion of the next generation(s). It is no wonder the younger folks and many of us in your generation don't want shit to do with your version of lesbian pride and feminism. I like blue and yellow and find room for both in my identity as a lesbian.

And just for the record...........your dismissing Heart is no different than any other masculine being dismissing a feminine being.......it's the patriarchy at work.

[Kobi]

Aj,

As always I have a great deal of respect for you and the risks you have taken here. We have discussed it before and my respect has not changed.

Lesbians do have a herstory and it would be nice for that to be perserved, to be respected, to be perpetuated for our children, grandchildren, and all future generations.

People are people. We have discussed ideal based approaches versus reality based approaches. In ideal realms we can deny, ignore, and/or dictate a utopia. In reality issues will arise. Changing hearts and minds is best done by example and by talking. A 2x4 upside the head accomplishes nothing but fueling more hatred.

You have endured some harsh realities in life. I have endured some harsh realities. But, we are both fighting for the same things. I am proud to stand beside you and call you a sister. There will be issues. I dont think they are insurmountable.

June,

Again, what you are hearing is being filtered thru something which is not my intent. I can attempt to discuss it with you. It seems very clear to me that you have formed opinions and anything I say will be seen within those opinions. Thus, I dont feel heard. I feel I have to defend and I am tired of defending the right to be heard.

Again, if Aj came in here and said I have an issue....you would be knocking heads. If a transman came in and said I have issues....you would be knocking heads. I come in as a woman and a lesbian and your behavior is to knock me. Thats a funky standard that seems to be a manifestation of internalized misogyny.

Of course say that leaves me wide open to the usual and customary tirade. Been there, heard that, cutting and pasting will save time. Wont increase communication tho.

Atomic,

It is hard to answer you without expending a great deal of energy and time. The short version is women and lesbians, lesbians like me, have things to discuss that affect us as women and lesbians like me.

We are perfectly capable of handing the process ourselves. It is our experience. Our experience includes issues related to women and lesbians being oppressed groups in a patriarchy.

Much of the rationale you have listed in your post for your need to been involved here is almost word for word the same rational I have heard for decades. It is men need to be an integral part of defining the female experience. Not being a part is very threatening. There is just no nice way to say that.

The rational that you are not speaking as a transman but as a human being denies that there are differences between the sexes. Heard that many times before too. When the oppression of women is eliminated, seeing everyone as human rather than a sex or gender is possible. In the current reality, it is just a rationalization or excuse to stop women from speaking of their reality.

It is my reality. Not your interpretation of my reality. And I am quite capable of speaking to it.

And, in closing, yesterday this thread was very female, woman oriented. Today it is once again trans oriented. Funny how that keeps happening.

The divesity of sameness.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by citybutch

One thing I just want to note ( and a small note at that), Mary Daly really didn't put a lot of emphasis on lesbianism, hers or others. That was rather immaterial to her. She cared about women... plain and simple. The connections she felt were the woman connections steeped in Background and Leaping Connections.

"lesbian schmesbian" as she would say....

All hail Mary Daly!

[Toughy]

by Kobi
And, in closing, yesterday this thread was very female, woman oriented. Today it is once again trans oriented. Funny how that keeps happening.

and I call bullshit when I see it...............

[Glenn]

I'm gonna get some more popcorn for this! *runs out the courtroom*

[Heart]

Originally Posted by Kobi

I will say again its intent was for lesbians who are females who partner with other females to have a place to discuss stuff related to our lives, experiences, concerns. That includes feminism and all it encompasses.

And that describes ME. So, I get to talk about stuff related to my life including my thoughts/ideas about trans, cis, feminism, sleeping with men, etc. Unless of course you have a particular set of topics for us lesbian females to discuss that meet with your approval.

It is easier, it seems, to change the focus to trans issues than it is to deal with misogyny in our community or the many ways in which women screw over other women. It is much either to deal with trans issues than it is to deal with pro women issues.

I have probably talked about misogyny more times in these threads than any other poster, and have put myself on the firing line time and time again on these boards. I don't have to prove myself to you Kobi, but what really irks me, is the lack of respect you are showing for other posters here, including the very lesbians you claim to want to give space to.

And Heart, for the last time, my perception of your flip flopping has nothing to do with your self identity. It has to do with the topic being about the color blue and you injecting one on yellow. Head in the direction of yellow and you change it to orange. Go with orange and you change it to silver.
In the beginning I gave you the benefit of the doubt.

Excuse me? I don't need your benefit of the doubt Kobi. Bring it. Your vague disparaging of my intent and character started when I mentioned sleeping with men. You launched into your tirade about what the true definition of a lesbian is. So, no mystery Kobi - you are being perfectly well understood.

Perhaps you were trying to sort out things like the rest of us, or were trying to be diplomatic or were more comfortable straddling the fence.

Oh no Kobi -- I'm more comfortable kicking the fence over -- so let me make it clear to you one more time: I'm a lesbian, a dyke, a woman who fucks women. I have also fucked men -- and been raped by one too. I'm the mother of a son and I would never live on any "safe land" that rejected him due to his gender. I am fiercely feminist and my work and life are about empowering women and girls whether they are straight, lesbian, bi, trans, or unaffiliated. Oh, and I welcome trans women into MY lesbian/female spaces, and their issues are mine. So check it out Kobi -- THIS is what a lesbian feminist looks like.

I'm in this color - and I am PISSED.

Heart

[Toughy]

Kobi...........damn this is getting old

you just dismissed another lesbian, only it's a lesbian of the butch persuasion....only this time it has a transphobic nature to it...........I rarely ever call transphobia............but it's abundantly clear to me now you are of that persuasion.........

get a fucking grip dude.....I am sorry I ever defended you...........you obviously have not learned a damn thing in your time here........

free your mind.....

[Toughy]

and just cuz I am in a piling mood........

funny you ignore me........what is it????.......... you can't fathom or respond to a butch who fucked men and liked it and claims lesbian???????????????

[atomiczombie]

I am in red:

Originally Posted by Kobi

[COLOR="Navy"]
Atomic,

It is hard to answer you without expending a great deal of energy and time. The short version is women and lesbians, lesbians like me, have things to discuss that affect us as women and lesbians like me.

Ok.

We are perfectly capable of handing the process ourselves. It is our experience. Our experience includes issues related to women and lesbians being oppressed groups in a patriarchy.

No arguments here.

Much of the rationale you have listed in your post for your need to been involved here is almost word for word the same rational I have heard for decades. It is men need to be an integral part of defining the female experience. Not being a part is very threatening. There is just no nice way to say that.

Hmm, so when lesbians talk about gender and ID politics, they are not sometimes also defining the trans experience? I don't feel threatened. I feel frustrated when the people I quoted say the things they said in those quotes and then some pretend they are saying things that have nothing to do with trans people. Or, they blatantly say things about trans people, and yet I am told that I have no right to respond because it's a lesbian thread. When Chazz said that the concept of gender is a construct of patriarchy, that erases me and my gender. And yes, I was responding as a trans guy.

The rational that you are not speaking as a transman but as a human being denies that there are differences between the sexes. Heard that many times before too. When the oppression of women is eliminated, seeing everyone as human rather than a sex or gender is possible. In the current reality, it is just a rationalization or excuse to stop women from speaking of their reality.

I was talking as a human being when I asked you if you were really questioning what Heart stands for based on who she sleeps with.

It is my reality. Not your interpretation of my reality. And I am quite capable of speaking to it.

I never spoke for you or tried to interpret your reality. Where are you getting that?

And, in closing, yesterday this thread was very female, woman oriented. Today it is once again trans oriented. Funny how that keeps happening.

The divesity of sameness.

How has this thread become trans oriented? The topics have been all over the place - misogyny, patriarchy, the definition of lesbian, who qualifies, etc. Not just about gender ID politics and trans issues, although they have frequently come up.

[Kobi]

I read my last post. I read the responses.

Thank you all for so poignantly illustrating everything I said. I couldnt have asked for a more illuminating display of the truth.

I will leave you now so you can continue to prove my observations as correct.

Have a good evening

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by Kobi

I read my last post. I read the responses.

Thank you all for so poignantly illustrating everything I said. I couldnt have asked for a more illuminating display of the truth.

I will leave you now so you can continue to prove my observations as correct.

Have a good evening

reading and understanding are not the same thing....................obviously

truth is fleeting
understanding is growth

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by Kobi

I read my last post. I read the responses.

Thank you all for so poignantly illustrating everything I said. I couldnt have asked for a more illuminating display of the truth.

I will leave you now so you can continue to prove my observations as correct.

Have a good evening

oh goody............take your toys and go home...because no one wanted to play by your rules.....

this crap is not even worthy of 'popcorn'.,.............

[Softhearted]

I feel like doing a "post-by"... This thread is getting more confusing...

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by Heart

Chazz - you ain't startin' it -- cause there's women globally, lesbian and otherwise, who are doin' it -- adressing women's oppression that is.

All of this feels like it's gotten a bit grandiose at this point. If you're isolated, maybe that's on you.

I'm out.

Heart

Heart, you misread.

I'm not isolated, I have a strong lesbian/Feminist community online and off. I though I was clear about that in my last post????

As to grandiosity, well you're entitled to your opinions, but no, not really. Perhaps you're mistaking a sense of empowerment and incentive with grandiosity, or perhaps, you're administering a slap down. Either way, it's okay.....

But to be clear about the empowerment and incentive.... I think it's time for woman IDed lesbians to get back to basics, to refocus our energies on ourselves, one another and the forces that continue to oppress women. No, that's not separatism, it's self-care. The fact that a statement like that sounds like separatism (albeit a misapprehended, extreme version of separatism) to some (you?), is the problem manifest.

You have used the term "separatism" in my direction before. The inherent put-down down did not go unnoticed. Of more importance, the implied vilification of self-focusing lesbians did not go unnoticed, either. I'm good with the former, the latter not so much.

To be clear Vol. 2.....

I live in the world. I work, socialize, friend with, co-parent, professionally counsel, and LOVE some males. One of my best friends on the planet is a straight, biker dude.... I prefer some men's company to some women's company. So no, this is not about "separatism", wanting to sequester myself away from men, trans people, queers, or anyone.... It's about getting back to Lesbian Feminist basics - a certain kind of "politik". It's conversation like this one that have convinced me of the urgency of that....

My basics don't have to be yours (or, do they?). I'm not male-phobic, trans-phobic, mollusk-phobic or any other presumed insult or epithet anyone may subtly or overtly lob at me.... I'm lesbian/woman-centric. That may be heresy to admit these days, but there you have it.


Lesbian Separatism, partially or wholly, is: "The separation of various sorts or modes from men [sexually, for instance] and from institutions, relationships, roles and activities that are male-defined, male-dominated, [male-value inculcated] and operating for the benefit of males and the maintenance of male privilege—this separation being initiated or maintained, at will, by women." [Oh no, willfull women ! ! ! !] - Marilyn Frye