08-16-2011, 10:47 AM | #261 | ||
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You're most welcome, Heart.
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08-16-2011, 01:35 PM | #262 |
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FYI-
And from Jeanne Cordova of Butch Nation:
http://networkedblogs.com/lINy3 Posted on FB: This Saturday, at the BV Conference 12pm. BULLDAGGER: For Women-Identified, Female-Pronoun Using Butches. This Sunday, 12pm. "Exploring Our Masculinities While Keeping Our Feminisms." Oakland Marriott. The room is under the name Goldberg. Free and open to the public. Butch Nation will be there. Post widely. Also on FB, posted by Krys Freeman of BV: Friday, 12pm. Town Hall Meeting -- To discuss all that has transpired in the past few weeks. Jewett Ballroom Free and open to the public. Butch Nation encouraged to attend. Post widely. |
08-16-2011, 01:41 PM | #263 | |
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This will probably be my last post on this subject. I would prefer to focus on issues of importance to me and women who have shared my life's experience.
BTW, I'm not feeling strident, though this post may come across as same. Quote:
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08-16-2011, 02:06 PM | #264 | |
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Written for Women's Liberation Broadsheet, International Woman's Day, 1975. Joyce Stevens is author of Taking the Revolution Home, Work Among Women in the Communist Party of Australia 1920 -1945 and other books. Just wanted to give credit where credit is due...
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08-16-2011, 02:32 PM | #265 |
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Chazz - My responses in blue. I understand that you wish to move on, this response is not about the content (we have places we disagree, which is fine), but it is about the tone and the kinds of divisions/accusations/justifications that come up over and over when feminism and genderism cross -- always seeming to be at cross purposes....
I think we may have a differing points of view about the "privilege" "transmen garner". I don't see "passing" as a privilege for anyone. Nor do I - I was not referring to "passing." It's a much as most lesbians can do to provide for themselves, their children and one another, to the extent that they do and can. (Hell, my community has an impossible time keeping lesbian businesses open because lesbians are so short of resources.) But, in the spirit of fairness, I promise to refer my lesbian and straight DV clients to DV shelters started, operated and financed by transwomen. Huh? I do not get this statement (sarcastic?). Ouch. I have worked with other lgbtq advocates to help grass roots feminists shift their thinking on this. Yes, we have used "gender theory," which frankly hasn't been very useful. I did a presentation about using a more "gender neutral" lens at a conference once and the mainstram feminists in the room got up and walked out. I'm sorry that happened to you. It must have felt awful, but people are entitled to vote with their feet. Chazz, my point here was that gender theory was NOT going to work for all the reasons you, among others, have elucidated, and that I agree with. I'm talking about my learning curve and you seem to be chastizing me. I think it's okay for Feminists to have different perspectives about what constitutes "suspicion, threat, and betrayal" and any given identity. I think it's okay for women to choose, for themselves, how they wish to allocate their time and resources (where and to whom) without being pressured, cajoled or guilt tripped. Nothing I have said was intended to pressure or guilt trip. Not my style. The afore mentioned happens all the time in "our" current community. We are uniformly expected to jump onto the band wagon of the day, when it's all some of us can do to master our own particularistic destinies and self-understanding. I'm sensing that the direction in which I took the discussion feels to you like a derail of the issue of lesbian pride and more specifically of lesbian BUTCH pride. Is that true? Coming off of the BV/BN thing, I get that, but this thread is not only about butches, but about all of us who are lesbians, and also those of us who are feminists. My interests and proclivities lie elsewhere. Their deal doesn't speak to me. It doesn't further my understanding of myself as a woman IDed butch. Should I ignore my imperatives in the name of someone else's version of "solidarity"? Rally around other's cause(s) rather than my own? Send a check? What? ....I listen, I introspect, I choose, and then I act according to the beat of my own drummer. This doesn't sound strident -- just defensive, as if you felt attacked or dismissed by the issues I raised. Of course you get to choose your focus, your imperative, and act accordingly. I don't know how what I raised opposes that, unless it was my belief that transwomen should be allowed at MWMF. It just doesn't strike me as very feminist for a transwoman to be barred, while transmen, male-pronoun-using, transmasculine, male-butch-3rd gendered people have access. One of the worst elements of 2nd Wave Feminism, in my estimation, was the pressure mostly white and/or privileged Feminists brought to bear on all women to adopt their agenda. And when "we" (lesbians, WOC, B&Fs....) didn't, we were castigated, vilified and tagged as being - %*#^@. Am I doing that? What I am reminded of, (thanks to this thread), is that patriarchy makes it hard for us to trust each other. - Heart Exactly.... My "trust" isn't garnered when my personal agenda is set for me. Nor is it nurtured when I'm pressured or guilted into supporting people, places and things that don't "speak" to me, honor my boundaries or identity, or my take on reality. Again, is that what you have experienced from my posts here? Because truly that was not my intention or goal. And I wonder, feel both mystified, confused, and - okay yes, upset that we are in this place. When I talk feminism, I highlight issues of race/gender that feminism erased or essentialized. When I talk gender theory, I highlight issues of feminism and patriarchy that gender theory erased and denigrated. So, lesbians think I'm being anti-feminist, and queers think I'm being anti-genderist. Guess I can't win. But none of it - NONE of it is intended to personally erase anyone else's experience or choices. It's all in the interest of dialogue, intersection, and growth. I was kinda hoping I wouldn't have to make that disclaimer in this thread. Last edited by Heart; 08-16-2011 at 02:56 PM. Reason: I've edited repeatedly to make things clear... as mud... |
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08-16-2011, 02:33 PM | #266 |
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What's individualistic about it? i am sure there are explanations that focus on individuals, but what is individualistic about it. i don't actually know what gender theory you mean, so it's hard for me to speculate.
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08-16-2011, 02:37 PM | #267 | |
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We have a feminist foundation that begs us to explore and grow even when we have to re-examine ourselves and accept the warts. It was the second Wave that brought awareness of gender theory to the forefront as a feminist paridigm. Given this, it is difficult to accept that gender theory remains a block to the entire LGBTQ population continuing to remain separate. The irony I spoke of earlier and what is at the heart of deep wounds. This has actually come full circle for me as a butch woman. The very same tactics and male power structures of "old" are wounding me in ways within our very own community using what the Second Wave believed to be a means to heal. |
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08-16-2011, 03:46 PM | #268 | |
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Thanks Jo!
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I am always glad to know the origin of quotes I have come across over the years that are not atributed to the right person, in order to give credit where credit is due!
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08-17-2011, 08:41 AM | #269 | |
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Heart, my responses are in purple.
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08-17-2011, 09:03 AM | #270 |
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Chazz, Thanks for your responses, your efforts to clarify, and your willingness to dialogue. I know there was some personal clouding, and appreciate that you took the time.
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08-17-2011, 11:00 AM | #271 | |
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"Clouding", maybe so, necessarily cautious, likely and understandably. I think you've been unfairly roughed-up by people unwilling to listen, hear, or engage respectfully. Their loss because you have a lot of insightful and thought provoking things to share. I learn a lot from you. Thank you, too, for putting up with my terse writing style. The unfortunate byproduct of too much report writing for Da Sistem. |
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08-17-2011, 01:05 PM | #272 |
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Just wanted to chime in to say that I appreciate the respectfulness in this thread. It can get so hard to exchange ideas on such sensitive topics. I am taking in many different ideas from the posts as they are giving me more insight into how each of us has experienced things from our own lenses. Also, there isn't any of the "hidden gem" slights wrapped in sugar that only serve to divide us instead of listening to each other.
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08-17-2011, 01:28 PM | #273 | |
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It is refreshing and I, too, appreciate it. It really helps to be able to express many different opinions and perspectives and reminders that are a tribute to the diverse group that we are. And I also appreciate that we can be honest about our own truths and see them as a bridge to each other and to further dialogue. |
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08-17-2011, 02:09 PM | #274 | |
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Postmodernism is a mix of philosophies: Primarily, subjectivism and epistemic relativism. These philosophies hold that no epistemic standard is defensible, true or factual. A postmodernist might argue “that modern science is nothing more than a “myth,” a “narration”, a “social construction.” (Professor Steven Luper, Trinity University) Gender theory is the offspring of postmodernism. One of its primary tenets is that gender performativity is a way of destabilizing/deconstructing gender conventions. Feminists hold that gender conventions are fictional, grotesque myths; and that re-enacting them in any context perpetuates oppression. Gender performativity is an individual, self-focused activity – even when performed in a group…. Models at a Playboy photo shoot are individually re-inscribing gender constructs even when posing for a group photograph. The enactment of real-world, gender conventions - of performing/embodying fictional constructs – makes them appear (feel) natural, organic, real. This reinforces gender stereotypes whether the performativity is meant to be parody or not; whether it’s meant to be a burlesque metaphor or not. African Feminist and author, Nnameka, had this to say about sex roles: Western European and North American epistemologies since ‘post structuralism’s [now referred to as postmodernism] focus on discourse and aesthetics instead of social action encourages the egocentricity and individualism that undermines collective action.’ (Nnameka, 2003, p.364). |
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08-17-2011, 07:51 PM | #275 |
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I was cruising some of the older posts (lol cruising) and noticed that there was a bit of discussion about feminist reading material.
Is there any other reading material/movies that anyone finds particularly prideful or that portrays lesbians in a positive light? I know one of the major critiques of lesbian representation in the media is that they're either crazy or they die at the end of the film. I always struggle with that. As a side note, I spent the past five days in a very small town and was openly talked about when my friend kissed me. It was a tiny peck, but apparently all the old men in the firehall saw fit to flap their gums about it. I refused to let them make me feel bad about who I am. There's my prideful moment for the week.
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08-17-2011, 08:21 PM | #276 | |
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08-17-2011, 08:43 PM | #277 |
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Most of the novel type things I love are probably out of print I do like the tv series Exes and Ohs - is like a lesbian version of "Friends", sweet, cute, and very funny. |
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08-17-2011, 08:57 PM | #278 | ||
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I'm sorry, but I just can't take it....I have to say SOMETHING
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How can either of you talk about how "refreshing" it is that everyone is being so "respectful" in this thread? There is blatant bigotry of transwomen going on in this thread. Did you guys just miss that part, or are you ok with that part? Really, I want to understand this. There is more than one lesbian transwoman on this message board. They are a PART of our community. Do you not think they are reading the words that have been written here? Do you have any freaking concept as to how it might be making them feel? I agree with you, AtLast, there is no "hidden gem" slights...there are right out there in the open! Yes, I know that June handled this, but I cannot sit idly by and not have some member of the community acknowledge how shitty this is, so I am doing it, even though I do not belong in this thread. Chazz, we have lesbian transwomen here. They are an important part of our community. Please consider that the next time you speak about "once-male", people. (P.S. I will not be available to post again until Sunday, Good nIght, all).
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08-17-2011, 08:59 PM | #279 | ||
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I'm sorry to intrude on the discussion, though perhaps apologies are pointless when I've already waltzed in...but I'm sorry. It's difficult to stand by, especially when we've already got a thread going on the issue, when such blatant transphobia is displayed. I fully support lesbians claiming lesbian pride, but what I don't support is doing it by degrading transwomen and claiming that transwomen lesbians are not "real" lesbians or "real" women. To me that is utterly and completely transphobic. I know that June addressed part of what I have to say, but I don't think the point can be stressed enough.
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08-17-2011, 09:15 PM | #280 | ||
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Thank you. Well-spoken. Both of you. I am genuinely verklempt. Cheers Aj Quote:
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